Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

[BritsKate]

She did a stint as her own lawyer - like Bundy.
Does this change your view at all re. narcissist?

Have you seen this video?
http://video.foxnews.com/v/2228988608001/

To be fair, Bundy also actually attended law school. I see Jodi's self-representation as opportunistic and little more.

It was while she was representing herself the ruling came down regarding the forged letters, fueling speculation her attorneys couldn't knowingly submit falsified evidence to the court. It is rather coincidental, the timing, but there's not enough to prove that's what happened either.

It can be very difficult to distinguish one disorder from another especially considering psychopath and narcissism are so very closely linked, and imo, very often comorbid. She was going to have her work hung between Monet and Van Gogh, don't forget. :biggrin: Really.

 

[SMK]

She did a stint as her own lawyer - like Bundy.
Does this change your view at all re. narcissist?

Have you seen this video?
http://video.foxnews.com/v/2228988608001/

OK, when I had seen this last night, I attributed this to her being insane. La de da, I am still a princess, this is no big deal........That was just the way I took it.

ETA: In other words, a facade.

 

[SMK]

Has the below ever been substantiated?
If these things are true, it would explain a lot.
Am also surprised to find, as I begin reading more articles, that TA had a bad upbringing and came to Mormonism later. I had viewed him as some solid, religious ,, white bread kid. This case has more twists and turns than I had expected. Very perplexing.....

Nurmi questioned Arias extensively about her early childhood. She said that she was subjected to frequent, violent beatings by her mother and father, who used belts, a wooden spoon, and their hands to discipline her and her siblings.

"My brother and I, we didn't like being hit," Arias said. "We'd squirm around a little, but the more we did, the more we'd get hit. At one point, I don't think she meant to, my mother broke my brother's wrist. As I became a teenager my dad would get rougher and rougher." She said the beating happened at times as often as four times a week.

 

[lil_buddy]

Untangling the Links between Narcissism and Self-esteem: A Theoretical and Empirical Review

Jennifer K. Bosson1,†,
Chad E. Lakey2,
W. Keith Campbell2,
Virgil Zeigler-Hill3,
Christian H. Jordan4,
Michael H. Kernis5

Article first published online: 3 APR 2008

"Summary, a Few Additional Points, and Conclusions
The mask model of narcissism offers an appealing answer to the question of why narcissists behave as they do: Narcissists self-aggrandize, manipu- late, derogate, and exploit because ‘deep down inside’ they actually dislike themselves. Not only does this answer make intuitive sense to many, it also fits nicely with current thinking about the limitations of people’s introspective access to their own inner selves (Nisbett & Wilson, 1977). Unfortunately, as we have detailed here, the data do not support the mask model as cleanly as one would hope."

 

[SMK]

I also find it interesting that the woman who babysat for 5 year old Jodi and her 3 year old brother witnessed aggression in Jodi as she whacked her brother on the head with a baseball bat and then lied about it.

Many children can be aggressive - in particular children who witness violent parents or are treated with aggression. A 5 year old is too young to be a narcissistic primadona and the recounted incident is less a reflection on her than on the babysitter who had to have her spot on Dr. Drew.

I guess I don't know what to think yet....

 

[SMK]

Untangling the Links between Narcissism and Self-esteem: A Theoretical and Empirical Review

Jennifer K. Bosson1,†,
Chad E. Lakey2,
W. Keith Campbell2,
Virgil Zeigler-Hill3,
Christian H. Jordan4,
Michael H. Kernis5

Article first published online: 3 APR 2008

"Summary, a Few Additional Points, and Conclusions
The mask model of narcissism offers an appealing answer to the question of why narcissists behave as they do: Narcissists self-aggrandize, manipu- late, derogate, and exploit because ‘deep down inside’ they actually dislike themselves. Not only does this answer make intuitive sense to many, it also fits nicely with current thinking about the limitations of people’s introspective access to their own inner selves (Nisbett & Wilson, 1977). Unfortunately, as we have detailed here, the data do not support the mask model as cleanly as one would hope."

Thanks for posting this. It gives me pause for sure.

 

[SMK]

@ lil_b:
dowloading to read more....thanks

 

[BritsKate]

OK, when I had seen this last night, I attributed this to her being insane. La de da, I am still a princess, this is no big deal........That was just the way I took it.

ETA: In other words, a facade.

I don't believe her acting as though it wasn't a big deal is a facade though. Psychopaths notoriously feel invinceable to even the most daunting situations for non-disordered people. Stress and anxiety are foreign to them. I think she believed she would be exonerated. I believe she still is banking on that notion.

Has the below ever been substantiated?
If these things are true, it would explain a lot.
Am also surprised to find, as I begin reading more articles, that TA had a bad upbringing and came to Mormonism later. I had viewed him as some solid, religious ,, white bread kid. This case has more twists and turns than I had expected. Very perplexing.....

Not really that I've heard. I don't believe a few spankings with a spoon (even if true) do anything to explain her psychopathy. Some psychopaths have horrible childhoods rampant with abuse - others very simply don't. It keeps the nature vs. nurture debate going.

David Lykken, a behavioral geneticist, is one my favorite researchers into psychopathy/sociopathy for this reason. He theorized that sociopathy is 'taught' through parenting, peers and societal influences while psychopathy is a born condition.

I'm not certain I agree but his work is fascinating nonetheless.

 

[lil_buddy]

To be fair, Bundy also actually attended law school. I see Jodi's self-representation as opportunistic and little more.

It was while she was representing herself the ruling came down regarding the forged letters, fueling speculation her attorneys couldn't knowingly submit falsified evidence to the court. It is rather coincidental, the timing, but there's not enough to prove that's what happened either.

It can be very difficult to distinguish one disorder from another especially considering psychopath and narcissism are so very closely linked, and imo, very often comorbid. She was going to have her work hung between Monet and Van Gogh, don't forget. :biggrin: Really.

What if I change Bundy to Alcala?

 

[SMK]

I don't believe her acting as though it wasn't a big deal is a facade though. Psychopaths notoriously feel invinceable to even the most daunting situations for non-disordered people. Stress and anxiety are foreign to them. I think she believed she would be exonerated. I believe she still is banking on that notion.


Not really that I've heard. I don't believe a few spankings with a spoon (even if true) do anything to explain her psychopathy. Some psychopaths have horrible childhoods rampant with abuse - others very simply don't. It keeps the nature vs. nurture debate going.

David Lykken, a behavioral geneticist, is one my favorite researchers into psychopathy/sociopathy for this reason. He theorized that sociopathy is 'taught' through parenting, peers and societal influences while psychopathy is a born condition.

I'm not certain I agree but his work is fascinating nonetheless.

Yes - the whole debate is fascinating. I must admit the more I view JA on video, the less sympathetic a character she appears. Perplexing and disturbing not to understand her true motivations and animus.

 

[lil_buddy]

OK, when I had seen this last night, I attributed this to her being insane. La de da, I am still a princess, this is no big deal........That was just the way I took it.

ETA: In other words, a facade.

What about the part about make-up?

 

[SMK]

What about the part about make-up?

Well I was attempting to give her a lot of credit: i.e. , Inside she is despairing , while outwardly she is saying, "Jodi, you should have done your make-up" , pretending she is some femme fatale out of an old '40s movie. But that is because I am imagining why I would act this way. It may be that she is nothing like myself. I am not a violent person and in her situation being dumped by TA would probably have wanted to hurt myself, not him. So I may be psychologizing or analyzing from the wrong perspective.....

 

[lil_buddy]

When this trial first started I was with you - I thought she was getting played by TA and then she snapped - probably Borderline fear of abandonment.

Then she took the stand...

Her narcissism, imo, based on what I have seen is off the chart. She thinks she is so irresistibly charming that she will pull this off.

Also, the defense has not been able to put forth a single shred of evidence to show that JA was abused in any way shape or form - in fact evidence (texts & emails) presented by the defense has been supportive of the assertion that JA was the aggressor and the abuser. If the defense could find evidence that TA was not a virgin before JA, they would have very eagerly presented it by now; it does not exist.

I'm going to cue up some parts of JA's testimony because I get the impression many of you are not watching...

Her 1st 5 mins on the stand against the prosecution... Do you see fear or low self-esteem?
Jodi Arias Trial - Day 30 - Part 2 - YouTube

Forgetting that big scientific terms for sexual behaviors is more 'convincing':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fHYlQa_jgiw#t=4506s

Enjoying her sex tape, JM asking her intimate details, gaslighting...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BGknypcr1RI#t=1809s

Monet, Van Gogh, Jodi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JN3w1Ecl2dQ#t=1682s

on re-direct (AFTER direct & cross, 14th? day on stand)... Travis asked her to marry him!?!?!?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eUIMKorBdWw#t=862s

 

[lil_buddy]

Violent crimes and their relationship to personality disorders
MICHAEL H. STONE, Columbia College of Physicians & Surgeons, New York
2007

"ABSTRACT
Persons committing murder and other forms of violent crime are likely to exhibit a personality disorder (PD) of one type or another. Essentially any personality disorder can be associated with violent crime, with the possible exception of avoidant PD. This includes those described in DSM as well as other disorders such as sadistic PD and psychopathy. The latter two, along with antisocial and paranoid PDs, are the most common personality accompaniments of violent crime. Narcissistic traits (if not narcissistic PD (NPD) itself) are almost universal in this domain, since violent offenders usually place their own desires and urges far above those of other persons. While admixtures of traits from several disorders are common among violent offenders, certain ones are likely to be the main disorder: antisocial PD, Psychopathy, Sadistic PD, Paranoid PD and NPD. Instrumental (as opposed to impulsive) spousal murders are strongly associated with NPD. Men committing serial sexual homicide usually show psychopathy and sadistic PD; half these men also show schizoid PD. Mass murderers usually show strong paranoid traits. With a focus on murder, clinical examples drawn from the crime literature and from the author’s personal interviews reflect 14 varieties of personality disorder. Animal torture before adulthood is an important predictor of future violent (including sadistic) crime. Whereas many antisocial persons are eventually capable of rehabilitation, this is rarely the case with psychopathic or sadistic persons. Suggestions for future research are offered."

 

[SMK]

When this trial first started I was with you - I thought she was getting played by TA and then she snapped - probably Borderline fear of abandonment.

Then she took the stand...

Her narcissism, imo, based on what I have seen is off the chart. She thinks she is so irresistibly charming that she will pull this off.

Also, the defense has not been able to put forth a single shred of evidence to show that JA was abused in any way shape or form - in fact evidence (texts & emails) presented by the defense has been supportive of the assertion that JA was the aggressor and the abuser. If the defense could find evidence that TA was not a virgin before JA, they would have very eagerly presented it by now; it does not exist.

I'm going to cue up some parts of JA's testimony because I get the impression many of you are not watching...

Her 1st 5 mins on the stand against the prosecution... Do you see fear or low self-esteem?
Jodi Arias Trial - Day 30 - Part 2 - YouTube

Forgetting that big scientific terms for sexual behaviors is more 'convincing':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fHYlQa_jgiw#t=4506s

Enjoying her sex tape, JM asking her intimate details, gaslighting...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BGknypcr1RI#t=1809s

Monet, Van Gogh, Jodi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JN3w1Ecl2dQ#t=1682s

on re-direct (AFTER direct & cross, 14th? day on stand)... Travis asked her to marry him!?!?!?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eUIMKorBdWw#t=862s

thanks for posting all of these. Yes , she presents as cold and a bit grandiose....

 

[lil_buddy]

OK.
Last one.

Personality disorders and violence among female prison inmates
Warren JI, Burnette M, South SC, Chauhan P, Bale R, Friend R.
Institute of Law, Psychiatry, and Public Policy, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, VA

2002

"Significant relationships were found between Antisocial Personality Disorder and institutional violence, and Narcissistic Personality Disorder and incarceration for a violent crime. "

 

[SMK]

Violent crimes and their relationship to personality disorders
MICHAEL H. STONE, Columbia College of Physicians & Surgeons, New York
2007

"ABSTRACT
Persons committing murder and other forms of violent crime are likely to exhibit a personality disorder (PD) of one type or another. Essentially any personality disorder can be associated with violent crime, with the possible exception of avoidant PD. This includes those described in DSM as well as other disorders such as sadistic PD and psychopathy. The latter two, along with antisocial and paranoid PDs, are the most common personality accompaniments of violent crime. Narcissistic traits (if not narcissistic PD (NPD) itself) are almost universal in this domain, since violent offenders usually place their own desires and urges far above those of other persons. While admixtures of traits from several disorders are common among violent offenders, certain ones are likely to be the main disorder: antisocial PD, Psychopathy, Sadistic PD, Paranoid PD and NPD. Instrumental (as opposed to impulsive) spousal murders are strongly associated with NPD. Men committing serial sexual homicide usually show psychopathy and sadistic PD; half these men also show schizoid PD. Mass murderers usually show strong paranoid traits. With a focus on murder, clinical examples drawn from the crime literature and from the author’s personal interviews reflect 14 varieties of personality disorder. Animal torture before adulthood is an important predictor of future violent (including sadistic) crime. Whereas many antisocial persons are eventually capable of rehabilitation, this is rarely the case with psychopathic or sadistic persons. Suggestions for future research are offered."

Am reading the section on the Bardo/Schaeffer murder now....very absorbing and scholarly analysis....

 

[SMK]

OK.
Last one.

Personality disorders and violence among female prison inmates
Warren JI, Burnette M, South SC, Chauhan P, Bale R, Friend R.
Institute of Law, Psychiatry, and Public Policy, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, VA

2002

"Significant relationships were found between Antisocial Personality Disorder and institutional violence, and Narcissistic Personality Disorder and incarceration for a violent crime. "

Yes - I suspected that there had to be a connection between NPD and violent crime. In my own experience with Ns, some type of crime - not always violent - is a necessary outgrowth of the syndrome.

 

[SMK]

A few things I am still unclear on, if anyone could clarify:

• Why exactly did they break up?
• How involved was TA with a new woman?
• Who was she, and how much did JA know about her?
• In what way did TA allegedly let JA know he held the sex against her?

 

[LadyEdith]

Am reading the section on the Bardo/Schaeffer murder now....very absorbing and scholarly analysis....

Where can this analysis be found please.