Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

[SMK]

Woe be gone: Travis said that Jodi looked like a twelve year old having an orgasm. This was when Jodi was wearing pigtails. He did not say he liked or would like to have a twelve year old girl orgasm. Imo

True enough, but the implication is there; the idea was pleasing to him at least in fantasy. Of course there is a divide between fantasy and action.

In any event , Travis was not taking the Mormon vows of chastity seriously. Perhaps they have the ideal of chastity to prevent this kind of messy relationship from taking place before marriage. He in no way deserved or provoked the outcome.

In a sense, I can partly see what may have horrified Jodi: As a man, he could enjoy the kinky sex, leave it behind him, and begin looking to become a husband and father by dating young Mormon virgins. She on the other hand must have felt stale, used up, and marked. Feminism has not changed this divide at all.

 

[Cate49]

Theodore Million, is well known for his work with personality disorders. I'm not all that familiar with him, but I'm aware of him. While this test may not be as extensive as the MMPI-2 my opinion is that it's reliable test, and should be taken as credible. Like the MMPI-2 it checks for many different things...

Richard Samusls the psychologist that used the MCMI on Jodi ( which was normal). Stated that np one test is perfect. Why then did he not test using the MMPI in conduction? How did he diagnose her with PTSD when the MCMI test was in normal range?

 

[Cate49]

Dr.Samuals also said that there were questions to detect deceit. He did say fooling test was possible with extensive reading and educational degrees. IMO Jodi would research tests knowing that they would be administered. The question I have is how long was it before test was administered, and did she have acess to computer and/ or other related reading.

 

[Cate49]

How does everyone feel about Dr. Samuals buying a book and card for Jodi? Do you think that this was crossing the border of client/doctor ?

 

[SMK]

How does everyone feel about Dr. Samuals buying a book and card for Jodi? Do you think that this was crossing the border of client/doctor ?

He gave these items as a personal gift? yes , I would say somewhat crossing a border...

 

[lil_buddy]

How does everyone feel about Dr. Samuals buying a book and card for Jodi? Do you think that this was crossing the border of client/doctor ?

He's supposed to be an impartial evaluator who will be expected to defend his position in a court of law where he will be under the microscope.

And he's presumably been doing this for like 30 years!?

It's common sense that he should not be reaching out in a personal way to the client. He should have gone thru the lawyer.

 

[Cate49]

He gave these items as a personal gift? yes , I would say somewhat crossing a border...

Yes SMK he gave her self help book that he says he gives some of his patients. The other gift was a card to lift her spirits.

 

[SMK]

Yes SMK he gave her self help book that he says he gives some of his patients. The other gift was a card to lift her spirits.

Not the best context for him to have done this. I can see with regular therapy patients in his office, a book may be something for them to work with between sessions.

In any case the prosecutor has made this expert witness look very bad in many ways. That said, I recall how in the Casey Anthony trial the prosecutor ripped apart an expert witness from the defense. Little did it matter to the jury as we know......

 

[pufnstuf]

Something I appreciated yesterday was when JM put the test results for her MCMI on the overhead. She scored highest on Anxiety (75), then PTSD (69)... but even as interesting, the next highest scores were for antisocial (in the 60s), narcissism (in the 50s), and histrionic (50s).

Loved seeing that... did you guys notice it, too? Interested to hear what you all make of that.

 

[Sophieandme]

Something I appreciated yesterday was when JM put the test results for her MCMI on the overhead. She scored highest on Anxiety (75), then PTSD (69)... but even as interesting, the next highest scores were for antisocial (in the 60s), narcissism (in the 50s), and histrionic (50s).

Loved seeing that... did you guys notice it, too? Interested to hear what you all make of that.

I hope some of our mental health pros weigh in on this too!!

I'm interested in the base scores (?) for these categories mentioned above. (i.e. PTSD 75 and Jodi's score = 69)

ETA: also what were the codes Juan was writing down that Samuels called out to him?

 

[BritsKate]

Richard Samusls the psychologist that used the MCMI on Jodi ( which was normal). Stated that np one test is perfect. Why then did he not test using the MMPI in conduction? How did he diagnose her with PTSD when the MCMI test was in normal range?

I've got lots of issues. First, its my understanding that for forensic purposes the MMPI is often favored (by about a 2-1 margin) with a pretty good validity rating. That aside, the method in which these tests were conducted raise serious concerns, for me, of their validity altogether. I've just never seen, or heard of, a psychologist tossing a notepad in front of a client/patient/defendant and transcribing their answers. :what: He even admitted to being unsure if he'd answered or if she had. WTF?!?

All that shoved to one side...this doctor is supposedly versed in forensic psychology yet he is basing his testimony on one broadly based psychological assessment he administered, with a preconceived hypothesis, without any retesting in three years time? A relatively short, self-reporting test requiring the honesty of the patient/client/defendant. Again that just isn't the 'norm' by any stretch of the imagination.

And the MCMI is based almost solely around the DSM...well, there's no definition of psychopathy in the DSM so why not also administer a PPI or PCL common in forensic psychology assessments of criminal defendants?

Of course, doing so might've messed up his hypothesis. :banghead: Don't even get me started on his (lightweight, imo) CV.

 

[Cate49]

Something I appreciated yesterday was when JM put the test results for her MCMI on the overhead. She scored highest on Anxiety (75), then PTSD (69)... but even as interesting, the next highest scores were for antisocial (in the 60s), narcissism (in the 50s), and histrionic (50s).

Loved seeing that... did you guys notice it, too? Interested to hear what you all make of that.

I did not thanks for the post.

 

[lil_buddy]

Numbers below 75 aren't too meaningful.

"For the Personality and Clinical Syndrome scales, base rate scores of 75-84 are taken to indicate the presence of a personality trait, or (for the Clinical Syndromes scales) the presence of a clinical syndrome. Scores of 85 or above indicate the persistence of a personality trait or a clinical syndrome."

Millon Clinical Multiaxial Inventory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Cate49]

Numbers below 75 aren't too meaningful.

"For the Personality and Clinical Syndrome scales, base rate scores of 75-84 are taken to indicate the presence of a personality trait, or (for the Clinical Syndromes scales) the presence of a clinical syndrome. Scores of 85 or above indicate the persistence of a personality trait or a clinical syndrome."

Millon Clinical Multiaxial Inventory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I learn so much from you smart folks. Want to know if these tests are subject to the person administering? This psychologist apparently administered a criminal antisocial personality test compared to personality tests used for employment and college/university application. Hope that makes sense?

 

[Cate49]

Watched trial today and they released new video of interrogation and arrest. The following have me wondering what is up with this women.
1. She asked to see crime photos
2. asked if the family + media be notified of arrest.
3. Could she clean up a little before booking.
Mixed with previous clips of singing + talking to self (okay I do these two) headstand, hair flipping
Now is she disturbed or is this all for show with the knowledge that this may help with insanity stategy? I know she is not Andrea Yates insane but don't know what to think!

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Fascinating, but two questions arise:

1. Could this phenomena be produced during childhood due to events?

2. If not, then the moral aspect goes out the window and such persons should no longer be judged as evil, just malformed.

Morality and evil arise from free will and evil is always chosen. If this is "wired in" then we have no right to judge, just to view these people as dangerous, but not bad.

Yes, this showed more of a built-in deficit in the brain "wiring" and there was a genetic link. I believe LindaNJ may have mentioned a famous doctor who tested psychopaths (who show similar brain abnormalities that I described upon scans) wound up testing himself and found he had the inhereted psychopathy!
Sorry, it's late and I'm sure there are others here that could include a link but I am just going off my *foggy* memory. :blushing:

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Watched trial today and they released new video of interrogation and arrest. The following have me wondering what is up with this women.
1. She asked to see crime photos
2. asked if the family + media be notified of arrest.
3. Could she clean up a little before booking.
Mixed with previous clips of singing + talking to self (okay I do these two) headstand, hair flipping
Now is she disturbed or is this all for show with the knowledge that this may help with insanity stategy? I know she is not Andrea Yates insane but don't know what to think!

I loved how one of the guest talkers on HLN just commented on the interrogation video and said JA was "grandstanding by headstanding"!

LOL!!!!!! :floorlaugh:

 

[gitana1]

Theodore Million, is well known for his work with personality disorders. I'm not all that familiar with him, but I'm aware of him. While this test may not be as extensive as the MMPI-2 my opinion is that it's reliable test, and should be taken as credible. Like the MMPI-2 it checks for many different things...

I just heard two psychologists on Dr. Drew stating that the Millon test is used with people who are suspected of having a personality disorder. It's not used to generally diagnose.

Nothing suggests to me that it is not a reliable test, but the MMPI-2 is harder to "beat" as it is several times longer, among other reasons. And it helps in general diagnosis, it's not just for those with personality disorders.

All I can say is that I have never seen it used, ever, to assess any parent in a child custody evaluation. And I see several each year, in my practice.

Thanks for addressing all my questions and posts.

Yes , it becomes clearer now that the very qualities that gave Jodi a foothold with Travis - her aggression, her sexual bravado and experience, her confidence - eliminated her as a serious partner for him. Who, though, could have imagined this outcome? Even many stalkers never get to this point....

I don't think jodi's confidence had a thing to do with why she wasn't marriage material, and her sexuality was only part of it. Have you heard what Travis' friends and associates have to say about her and their impressions? They found her extremely bizarre, not normal, scary even.

And after he broke up with her, she stalked him, peered in his windows, followed his new girlfriend, followed him, slashed his tires, climbed in his doggy door when he was home with the new girlfriend, send threatening notes to the same girl, etc. He knew she was scary and he told one of his friends that if he ever showed up dead on Saturday morning, it was her. The friend laughed it off until Travis said, "No, I;m serious.". prompting his friend to say, "Ok, I got you."

How does everyone feel about Dr. Samuals buying a book and card for Jodi? Do you think that this was crossing the border of client/doctor ?

Totally crossed boundaries that an impartial evaluator should have had.

Not the best context for him to have done this. I can see with regular therapy patients in his office, a book may be something for them to work with between sessions.

In any case the prosecutor has made this expert witness look very bad in many ways. That said, I recall how in the Casey Anthony trial the prosecutor ripped apart an expert witness from the defense. Little did it matter to the jury as we know......

And I don't think this witness and how Juan Martinez skewered him matters much to this jury either. They have decided, IMO and she's going down.

There has been such a flood, an avalanche a volcano of testimony and evidence that allows this jury to find her guilty of a vicious, premeditated attack. I was worried at first. When they played the sex tape, that was it for me. And it only got better after that.

 

[SMK]

I don't think jodi's confidence had a thing to do with why she wasn't marriage material, and her sexuality was only part of it. Have you heard what Travis' friends and associates have to say about her and their impressions? They found her extremely bizarre, not normal, scary even.

And after he broke up with her, she stalked him, peered in his windows, followed his new girlfriend, followed him, slashed his tires, climbed in his doggy door when he was home with the new girlfriend, send threatening notes to the same girl, etc. He knew she was scary and he told one of his friends that if he ever showed up dead on Saturday morning, it was her. The friend laughed it off until Travis said, "No, I;m serious.". prompting his friend to say, "Ok, I got you."



.

I think TA ought to have filed police reports about the tires and other incidents. Because he did not , this has encouraged certain bloggers to say that these incidents have been made up after the fact. (no witnesses, no police reports or calls to 911).

That she had slashed his tires, gained unlawful entry into his place, been aggressive toward his new date, makes it baffling that he would have spent an afternoon naked and having sex with her on June 4, especially since he was now dating a virgin within the Mormon church. I would think that showing up at his door "to give him the check for the car" he would have taken it, chatted, told her to leave - and been found shot and stabbed but fully clothed in the living room. Did she have something on him? I just find all of this baffling......:waitasec:

The problem with trawling all over the internet researching something is that you wind up with conflicting theories. For example, reading different websites several conflicting ideas have been set forth:

1. Jodi was a young woman madly in love with TA, got too aggressive, got dumped, and killed him in a fit of mad jealousy.

2. Jodi was ambivalent about TA and the abuse went both ways.

3. Jodi having no high school or colllege degree had become a sex worker and was basically TA's paid prostitute, threatening to expose him if he backed out of the deal.

Just wish I could know which is true---does not matter legally but it does psychologically.

 

[BritsKate]

I don't think jodi's confidence had a thing to do with why she wasn't marriage material, and her sexuality was only part of it. Have you heard what Travis' friends and associates have to say about her and their impressions? They found her extremely bizarre, not normal, scary even.

And after he broke up with her, she stalked him, peered in his windows, followed his new girlfriend, followed him, slashed his tires, climbed in his doggy door when he was home with the new girlfriend, send threatening notes to the same girl, etc. He knew she was scary and he told one of his friends that if he ever showed up dead on Saturday morning, it was her. The friend laughed it off until Travis said, "No, I;m serious.". prompting his friend to say, "Ok, I got you."

RSBM

And she eerily knew his ATM pin and garage access code. Given the nature of their relationship, I absolutely doubt Travis willingly gave Jodi that info either. But none of what you so accurately listed is at all uncommon with psychopaths either.

'Most' are hypersexual. Many female psychopaths especially, to my knowledge, tend to use sex as either a tool or weapon. Everything is about control, domination, and manipulation.

I tend to think normal people fall into one of few categories when confronted with a psychopath. There are people who know immediately that something is very wrong with a psychopath and want to stay away from them. (It's often an instinctual response.) There are those who completely ignore any instincts they may have and fall completely for the 'veneer' of the psychopath. (That'd be my type. :blushing And then there's what I think is most common...most people give the psychopath the benefit of the doubt until they themselves experience their odd behaviors.

Some of those I've seen myself include an intense, eerie glare; a lack of any emotional response when there should be one (almost to a robotic sense, really); an insane flip of 'emotion' - like going from crying to laughing in minutes, almost maniacally so; and gaslighting behaviors. For the last one, if you're in a relationship with a psychopath it can be hard to really see crazy-making. But if you're not its glaringly apparent and very off-putting. (Most people experienced this with Jodi testifying.)

JMO and FWIW