Armchair Psych discussion of Jodi Arias

[DebinGA]

I'd be interested in opinions re the effect Travis' chaotic childhood might have had on his failure to send Jodi packing, give her numerous second chances, etc. I think the stories of her family/upbringing hit a chord with him, and he "forgave" things in Jodi he wouldn't in others, thinking, "If it weren't for my grandma, I'd be that messed up too."

Also, given his acceptable appearance and great personality, attracting nice women wasn't a problem. He dated a lot, but I've read nothing about serious prior relationships, even though such were highly encouraged in the LDS culture. Did he play the field so long by choice, or did his early life make him afraid to commit?

Forgive me please if this is OT, but "it takes two to tango" and I don't understand why Travis didn't see what we and everyone he knew saw in Jodi, or why he saw but continued anyway. "The sex" as an answer doesn't work for me.

 

[Whisperer]

Something I appreciated yesterday was when JM put the test results for her MCMI on the overhead. She scored highest on Anxiety (75), then PTSD (69)... but even as interesting, the next highest scores were for antisocial (in the 60s), narcissism (in the 50s), and histrionic (50s).

Loved seeing that... did you guys notice it, too? Interested to hear what you all make of that.

...sure did notice it. I also noticed Wilmott hid the other results when she put them up for the court.

Anxiety runs through all those we noticed. She is a cluster B..having anti-social, narcissism, borderline and histrionic....not to mention passive aggressive, when needed. PTSD is not her diagnosis...but a convenient tool to use to explain her amnesia. Every answer she gave fits all the other catagories we saw on the screen.

Gad, is she histrionic! Yikes! Everybody bodyslams her and she keeps passing out. She is a cluster B for sure, imo.

 

[BritsKate]

I think TA ought to have filed police reports about the tires and other incidents. Because he did not , this has encouraged certain bloggers to say that these incidents have been made up after the fact. (no witnesses, no police reports or calls to 911).

That she had slashed his tires, gained unlawful entry into his place, been aggressive toward his new date, makes it baffling that he would have spent an afternoon naked and having sex with her on June 4, especially since he was now dating a virgin within the Mormon church. Did she have something on him? I just find all of this baffling......:waitasec:

I mean no offense when I say this but those bloggers are lacking an understanding of abusive relationships and the psychology that defines them. Travis didn't react any differently than the multitude of abuse victims and survivors act and react. Especially male victims.

There was a witness to the tire slashing and the police were called. An official report wasn't made only because, after waiting several hours, they still hadn't responded. There is an incident report on file of the call, caller, and responding address. It's in, iirc, Detective Flores' supplemental report.

 

[SMK]

RSBM

And she eerily knew his ATM pin and garage access code. Given the nature of their relationship, I absolutely doubt Travis willingly gave Jodi that info either. But none of what you so accurately listed is at all uncommon with psychopaths either.

'Most' are hypersexual. Many female psychopaths especially, to my knowledge, tend to use sex as either a tool or weapon. Everything is about control, domination, and manipulation.

I tend to think normal people fall into one of few categories when confronted with a psychopath. There are people who know immediately that something is very wrong with a psychopath and want to stay away from them. (It's often an instinctual response.) There are those who completely ignore any instincts they may have and fall completely for the 'veneer' of the psychopath. (That'd be my type. :blushing And then there's what I think is most common...most people give the psychopath the benefit of the doubt until they themselves experience their odd behaviors.

Some of those I've seen myself include an intense, eerie glare; a lack of any emotional response when there should be one (almost to a robotic sense, really); an insane flip of 'emotion' - like going from crying to laughing in minutes, almost maniacally so; and gaslighting behaviors. For the last one, if you're in a relationship with a psychopath it can be hard to really see crazy-making. But if you're not its glaringly apparent and very off-putting. (Most people experienced this with Jodi testifying.)

JMO and FWIW

Excellent points. I am reposting something I just wrote in reply to another poster above to see if you can illuminate.

I think TA ought to have filed police reports about the tires and other incidents. Because he did not , this has encouraged certain bloggers to say that these incidents have been made up after the fact. (no witnesses, no police reports or calls to 911).

That she had slashed his tires, gained unlawful entry into his place, been aggressive toward his new date, makes it baffling that he would have spent an afternoon naked and having sex with her on June 4, especially since he was now dating a virgin within the Mormon church. I would think that showing up at his door "to give him the check for the car" he would have taken it, chatted, told her to leave - and been found shot and stabbed but fully clothed in the living room. Did she have something on him? I just find all of this baffling......

The problem with trawling all over the internet researching something is that you wind up with conflicting theories. For example, reading different websites several conflicting ideas have been set forth:

1. Jodi was a young woman madly in love with TA, got too aggressive, got dumped, and killed him in a fit of mad jealousy.

2. Jodi was ambivalent about TA and the abuse went both ways.

3. Jodi having no high school or colllege degree had become a sex worker and was basically TA's paid prostitute, threatening to expose him if he backed out of the deal.

Just wish I could know which is true---does not matter legally but it does psychologically.

 

[SMK]

I'd be interested in opinions re the effect Travis' chaotic childhood might have had on his failure to send Jodi packing, give her numerous second chances, etc. I think the stories of her family/upbringing hit a chord with him, and he "forgave" things in Jodi he wouldn't in others, thinking, "If it weren't for my grandma, I'd be that messed up too."

Also, given his acceptable appearance and great personality, attracting nice women wasn't a problem. He dated a lot, but I've read nothing about serious prior relationships, even though such were highly encouraged in the LDS culture. Did he play the field so long by choice, or did his early life make him afraid to commit?

Forgive me please if this is OT, but "it takes two to tango" and I don't understand why Travis didn't see what we and everyone he knew saw in Jodi, or why he saw but continued anyway. "The sex" as an answer doesn't work for me.

I've pondered all of this, too! Yes, his childhood is a murky area with regard to motivations, mind-set, etc.

 

[DebinGA]

I think TA ought to have filed police reports about the tires and other incidents. Because he did not , this has encouraged certain bloggers to say that these incidents have been made up after the fact. (no witnesses, no police reports or calls to 911).

That she had slashed his tires, gained unlawful entry into his place, been aggressive toward his new date, makes it baffling that he would have spent an afternoon naked and having sex with her on June 4, especially since he was now dating a virgin within the Mormon church. Did she have something on him? I just find all of this baffling......:waitasec:

Re the tire slashings, didn't Lisa testify that she was there both times when there was a knock at Travis' door, and the slashed tires were discovered after he opened the door to see who was there? Maybe a juror question for Samuels today will refer to those incidents, asking whether he found such behavior "assertive" or not.

 

[ShadyLadySleuth]

Yes, and I think this is evident also from their actions:

If someone like Arias were really fully capable of genuine self love and self-interest, she would have moved on from Travis, learned to modify and be more guarded of her sexuality, perhaps gotten some education and waited for a later period when she might find a husband (nowadays, being 30-something is still considered young).

I think what horrified and enraged her was that to her skewed thinking, she had given the perfect combination: Converting to Mormonism, being attractive and also allowing for a lot of kinky sex exploration. To realize that her offering had been rejected, and now some dorky (to her thinking ) young Mormon girls would be given priority, must have seemed to her like sacrilege.

I fully agree with you. After their "final" breakup, after JA had moved back to her home in Yreka and was thousands of miles away from him, I think she may have brooded and brooded about the affair and how she had given him everything he ever wanted from a girlfriend, and how she had become a Mormon for him, let him use her sexually any way he wanted, she had given him 100% of herself....and it was spurned by him! She still wasn't good enough! This hit her to the core of her being. Being never good enough. The more she brooded about how he hurt her the more she wanted to hurt him. And she began to put her plan into action.

 

[BritsKate]

I'd be interested in opinions re the effect Travis' chaotic childhood might have had on his failure to send Jodi packing, give her numerous second chances, etc. I think the stories of her family/upbringing hit a chord with him, and he "forgave" things in Jodi he wouldn't in others, thinking, "If it weren't for my grandma, I'd be that messed up too."

Also, given his acceptable appearance and great personality, attracting nice women wasn't a problem. He dated a lot, but I've read nothing about serious prior relationships, even though such were highly encouraged in the LDS culture. Did he play the field so long by choice, or did his early life make him afraid to commit?

Forgive me please if this is OT, but "it takes two to tango" and I don't understand why Travis didn't see what we and everyone he knew saw in Jodi, or why he saw but continued anyway. "The sex" as an answer doesn't work for me.

Admittedly, and probably because of my obvious sensitivity, I have an issue with this theory. Anyone can become a victim of abuse. If you fall prey to a psychopath, you are a victim of abuse. They are abusive by their very nature - only in varying degrees.

Psychopaths are chameleon-like predators who 'read' their targets. They almost innately sense what will appeal to the person they're targeting. They quickly establish trust. They learn their victim's greatest hope, deepest fear, darkest memory and they systematically form their manipulation and abuse specific to their target. Initially they seem absolutely perfect for you though...and it isn't until they've 'trapped' you that you realize something is very, very off.

The problem is, during that time, when you care for the psychopath your humanity precludes seeing their inhumanity. Instead of establishing boundaries and limitations, like most abusive relationships, you're instead defending, rationalizing, and minimizing abusive behaviors. That's part and parcel of an abusive relationship itself.

And, in truth, Travis' awful childhood may indeed have played a role. He may have been more apt to tolerate more in a relationship than people with a functional childhood. But maybe not too. The profiles, natures, and histories of people who have survived abusive and/or psychopathic relationships are extremely varied. IME and knowledge, psychopaths very often specifically target people who appear to be very compassionate or trusting, especially young, naive, or in some other way vulnerable. Quite deliberately.

MOO

 

[BritsKate]

Excellent points. I am reposting something I just wrote in reply to another poster above to see if you can illuminate.

I think TA ought to have filed police reports about the tires and other incidents. Because he did not , this has encouraged certain bloggers to say that these incidents have been made up after the fact. (no witnesses, no police reports or calls to 911).

That she had slashed his tires, gained unlawful entry into his place, been aggressive toward his new date, makes it baffling that he would have spent an afternoon naked and having sex with her on June 4, especially since he was now dating a virgin within the Mormon church. I would think that showing up at his door "to give him the check for the car" he would have taken it, chatted, told her to leave - and been found shot and stabbed but fully clothed in the living room. Did she have something on him? I just find all of this baffling......

The problem with trawling all over the internet researching something is that you wind up with conflicting theories. For example, reading different websites several conflicting ideas have been set forth:

1. Jodi was a young woman madly in love with TA, got too aggressive, got dumped, and killed him in a fit of mad jealousy.

2. Jodi was ambivalent about TA and the abuse went both ways.

3. Jodi having no high school or colllege degree had become a sex worker and was basically TA's paid prostitute, threatening to expose him if he backed out of the deal.

Just wish I could know which is true---does not matter legally but it does psychologically.

I have to base this off of my admittedly very biased opinion, just so you know.

Psychopaths are incapable of love. Abusive behaviors are not loving. They're about control. Evidence of Jodi's abusive behaviors, going back long before Travis, is rampant.

Travis is lacking a lot, like almost all, behaviors very common to abusive personalities. (I made a list of those I'll find and post for you.) He's said a few things consistent with verbal abuse (most people have in moments of anger) but those don't define a relationship as abusive. An abusive relationship is built around a series of controlling behaviors.

I'm a high school dropout (I did go back for my degree though) so I apparently missed my calling! :floorlaugh: Remember the coincidentally taped phone call on the miraculously retrieved just before trial lost phone? In that call, Travis expresses his concern over them continuing to have sex. Instead of even acknowledging that concern, Jodi instead plows over it, giggling, minimizing with a 'Well if it's wrong, I don't want to be right.' It's evidence of very blatant manipulation and I think telling of their relationship itself. We've heard of a sexual history for Jodi - one she even manipulated when it suited her. (Like suddenly saving herself for marriage instead of telling Darryl she just didn't want to have sex with him.) But the only sexual history we know of for Travis is WITH Jodi.

Adding to that, I 'know' how psychopaths view and treat sex. And I believe strongly she is a psychopath. Even a sadistic one. So, for me, its pretty easy to make the jump that Jodi was Travis' first real, full, sexual experience. I think, personally, he met a monster and had no clue how to extricate himself from her.

 

[ShadyLadySleuth]

I've got lots of issues. First, its my understanding that for forensic purposes the MMPI is often favored (by about a 2-1 margin) with a pretty good validity rating. That aside, the method in which these tests were conducted raise serious concerns, for me, of their validity altogether. I've just never seen, or heard of, a psychologist tossing a notepad in front of a client/patient/defendant and transcribing their answers. :what: He even admitted to being unsure if he'd answered or if she had. WTF?!?

All that shoved to one side...this doctor is supposedly versed in forensic psychology yet he is basing his testimony on one broadly based psychological assessment he administered, with a preconceived hypothesis, without any retesting in three years time? A relatively short, self-reporting test requiring the honesty of the patient/client/defendant. Again that just isn't the 'norm' by any stretch of the imagination.

And the MCMI is based almost solely around the DSM...well, there's no definition of psychopathy in the DSM so why not also administer a PPI or PCL common in forensic psychology assessments of criminal defendants?

Of course, doing so might've messed up his hypothesis. :banghead: Don't even get me started on his (lightweight, imo) CV.

Dr. Samuels testimony has been trashed by JM. But, I'm wondering if, assuming JA is found guilty of 1st degree murder, might her main defense witness, her forensic psychologist, be deemed so unprofessional that it could be a basis for an appeal later and get her another trial.

 

[BritsKate]

Here's the list I've compiled, SMK...it's probably not complete, but its what I've pieced together from several online accounts of family and friends, media reports, and Jodi's interviews and testimony. This is JMO, based on my own knowledge of abusive relationships.

Behaviors consistent with an abusive personality...

Jodi:

• Moved to Mesa after their relationship ended - pursuit in a very classical sense.
• Slashed the tires on his car - damage to personal property.
• Sent a 'warning' email to a prospective girlfriend.
• Snooped through his text messages.
• Stalked him repeatedly.
• In my opinion, very likely cyber stalked him.
• Consistently violated boundaries of personal privacy.
• Snooped through his online accounts.
• Knew his ATM pin # and garage access code.
• Dismissed his voiced concerns over them having sex.
• Showed evidence of high manipulation through their phone recording.
• Isolated Travis in the not so classical sense that because of their sex life, Travis would have been unable to confide the reality of their relationship to many.
• Threatened suicide as emotional blackmail.

Behaviors inconsistent with an abusive personality:

• Encouraging Jodi to date other people.
• Not escalating the relationship to a more serious nature very, very quickly.
• No evidence of stalking or harassing Jodi once she moved back to Yreka.
• No escalation of violence according to testimony on direct.
• No isolation of Jodi - this doesn't mean keeping her from 'his' friends - it means systematically shutting down her every 'outside' resource, sometimes to even include work and family.
• No evidence of financial abuse - instead he was lending her money.
• Nothing to prove incessant emails, non-stop text messages, or constant phone calls on Travis' part.
• No outward evidence of jealousy on Travis' end. Not rising to the level I would expect from an abuser, anyway.
• No testimony from friends or family, in court or elsewhere, to indicate an easily triggered temper, impatience, possessiveness, etc.
• No proof he circumvented her movements - she didn't live with him and he even lent her his car.
• Didn't fly into a rage over a ruined BMW.
• Seemingly actively tried to help Jodi on many fronts, by her own accounts.

 

[ShadyLadySleuth]

Watched trial today and they released new video of interrogation and arrest. The following have me wondering what is up with this women.
1. She asked to see crime photos
2. asked if the family + media be notified of arrest.
3. Could she clean up a little before booking.
Mixed with previous clips of singing + talking to self (okay I do these two) headstand, hair flipping
Now is she disturbed or is this all for show with the knowledge that this may help with insanity stategy? I know she is not Andrea Yates insane but don't know what to think!

RE: the request to see the crime scene photos. IIRC, that was when she was still claiming innocence to the detective. When I saw the video the first time, she said "I know this is morbid, but I want to see them." I took that to be a calculated act on her part to pretend she had never seen the crime scene (I didn't do it). It was to let the detective assume she hadn't been there that day.

RE: the headstanding. This reminded me immediately of Amanda Knox in the Italian police department seen doing cartwheels. It seemed very bizarre to them and made her seem even more guilty. But even though she was found guilty, she later got another trial and was eventually released from prison and set free.

 

[SMK]

Here's the list I've compiled, SMK...it's probably not complete, but its what I've pieced together from several online accounts of family and friends, media reports, and Jodi's interviews and testimony. This is JMO, based on my own knowledge of abusive relationships.

Behaviors consistent with an abusive personality...

Jodi:

• Moved to Mesa after their relationship ended - pursuit in a very classical sense.
• Slashed the tires on his car - damage to personal property.
• Sent a 'warning' email to a prospective girlfriend.
• Snooped through his text messages.
• Stalked him repeatedly.
• In my opinion, very likely cyber stalked him.
• Consistently violated boundaries of personal privacy.
• Snooped through his online accounts.
• Knew his ATM pin # and garage access code.
• Dismissed his voiced concerns over them having sex.
• Showed evidence of high manipulation through their phone recording.
• Isolated Travis in the not so classical sense that because of their sex life, Travis would have been unable to confide the reality of their relationship to many.
• Threatened suicide as emotional blackmail.

Behaviors inconsistent with an abusive personality:

• Encouraging Jodi to date other people.
• Not escalating the relationship to a more serious nature very, very quickly.
• No evidence of stalking or harassing Jodi once she moved back to Yreka.
• No escalation of violence according to testimony on direct.
• No isolation of Jodi - this doesn't mean keeping her from 'his' friends - it means systematically shutting down her every 'outside' resource, sometimes to even include work and family.
• No evidence of financial abuse - instead he was lending her money.
• Nothing to prove incessant emails, non-stop text messages, or constant phone calls on Travis' part.
• No outward evidence of jealousy on Travis' end. Not rising to the level I would expect from an abuser, anyway.
• No testimony from friends or family, in court or elsewhere, to indicate an easily triggered temper, impatience, possessiveness, etc.
• No proof he circumvented her movements - she didn't live with him and he even lent her his car.
• Didn't fly into a rage over a ruined BMW.
• Seemingly actively tried to help Jodi on many fronts, by her own accounts.

Thank you so much for this comprehensive and very compelling list.

 

[BritsKate]

RE: the request to see the crime scene photos. IIRC, that was when she was still claiming innocence to the detective. When I saw the video the first time, she said "I know this is morbid, but I want to see them." I took that to be a calculated act on her part to pretend she had never seen the crime scene (I didn't do it). It was to let the detective assume she hadn't been there that day.

RE: the headstanding. This reminded me immediately of Amanda Knox in the Italian police department seen doing cartwheels. It seemed very bizarre to them and made her seem even more guilty. But even though she was found guilty, she later got another trial and was eventually released from prison and set free.

RBBM

For me its evidence of a very sadistic aspect to her personality. Most people whom were interviewed weren't there that day but would never even dream of asking to see the crime scene photos.

But because Jodi's a psychopath she can't reason where most people's boundaries would be. She's constantly having to guess at it based on experiences she's seen but not fully felt.

The irises, 18 page letter, staring the family down, posthumous character assassination, and brutal nature of the crime are more evidence of her sadism.

JMO

 

[DebinGA]

Thank you so much for this comprehensive and very compelling list.

Ditto. TY, BritsKate.

Re her post-breakup move to Mesa, she moved without either a job or a place to live. Her purposeful dependency was a strategic gambit she used to snare tender-hearted prey imo. I can imagine her showing up, bags in hand, at Bobby's door in the middle of the night and asking if she could spend the "night".

 

[SMK]

I have to base this off of my admittedly very biased opinion, just so you know.

Psychopaths are incapable of love. Abusive behaviors are not loving. They're about control. Evidence of Jodi's abusive behaviors, going back long before Travis, is rampant.

Travis is lacking a lot, like almost all, behaviors very common to abusive personalities. (I made a list of those I'll find and post for you.) He's said a few things consistent with verbal abuse (most people have in moments of anger) but those don't define a relationship as abusive. An abusive relationship is built around a series of controlling behaviors.

I'm a high school dropout (I did go back for my degree though) so I apparently missed my calling! :floorlaugh: Remember the coincidentally taped phone call on the miraculously retrieved just before trial lost phone? In that call, Travis expresses his concern over them continuing to have sex. Instead of even acknowledging that concern, Jodi instead plows over it, giggling, minimizing with a 'Well if it's wrong, I don't want to be right.' It's evidence of very blatant manipulation and I think telling of their relationship itself. We've heard of a sexual history for Jodi - one she even manipulated when it suited her. (Like suddenly saving herself for marriage instead of telling Darryl she just didn't want to have sex with him.) But the only sexual history we know of for Travis is WITH Jodi.

Adding to that, I 'know' how psychopaths view and treat sex. And I believe strongly she is a psychopath. Even a sadistic one. So, for me, its pretty easy to make the jump that Jodi was Travis' first real, full, sexual experience. I think, personally, he met a monster and had no clue how to extricate himself from her.

Excellent and thorough analysis. :clap::clap:

Yes, it is evident that the sex was a tool which Jodi used to make their relationship exclusive : It was the one thing she had to offer that no one else within the Mormon community did. It must have been an extreme narcissistic injury to suddenly be up against teenaged Mormon virgins.

I suppose there was a bit of shame in TA for having gotten so entangled for sexual reasons, which must be why he did not turn to a church elder for guidance on how he might extricate himself from the whole affair.

 

[SMK]

RBBM

For me its evidence of a very sadistic aspect to her personality. Most people whom were interviewed weren't there that day but would never even dream of asking to see the crime scene photos.

But because Jodi's a psychopath she can't reason where most people's boundaries would be. She's constantly having to guess at it based on experiences she's seen but not fully felt.

The irises, 18 page letter, staring the family down, posthumous character assassination, and brutal nature of the crime are more evidence of her sadism.

JMO

Hate to have to ask this, but what are "the irises and 18 page letter"? :blushing:

 

[BritsKate]

Hate to have to ask this, but what are "the irises and 18 page letter"? :blushing:

No worries. After brutally slaughtering Travis, Jodi sent his grandmother 20 irises. Apparently, according to her, Travis wanted to name a future daughter Iris. The great-granddaughter Norma could never have.

The 18 page letter was sent to his family, on his birthday, about the lie of those who killed him. I'm presuming a lot of victim mentality behavior within that letter on her part too. Just a hunch.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...ath-sent-flowers-to-family-after-killing?lite

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/25/jodi-arias-trial-subpoena-god_n_2762121.html

 

[SMK]

No worries. After brutally slaughtering Travis, Jodi sent his grandmother 20 irises. Apparently, according to her, Travis wanted to name a future daughter Iris. The great-granddaughter Norma could never have.

The 18 page letter was sent to his family, on his birthday, about the lie of those who killed him. I'm presuming a lot of victim mentality behavior within that letter on her part too. Just a hunch.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...ath-sent-flowers-to-family-after-killing?lite

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/25/jodi-arias-trial-subpoena-god_n_2762121.html

Oh, wow, thanks. :O

 

[BritsKate]

I don't know if this has been posted here but this is the supplemental report by the lead detective. It lends a lot of insight in Jodi and Travis' relationship by way of roommate and friend's accounts.

http://grahamwinch.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/floresinvestigationreport.pdf