Aruba - Natalee Holloway, 18, Oranjestad, 30 May 2005 #1

[FLNY]

Hello WS

All of this is too weird for me. I have NO desire to say or think anything negative about a parent who has lost their child. I have nothing "for" or "against" BH. I just call it like I see it...

Just because their child was murdered, does not mean they are good person. I guess what is hard to swallow, is the idea that when we are speaking of a victim: when the parents(who are not guilty of hurting the child)act in other ways that are not right-speaking the truth is seen as "not supporting them" or somehow being "haters." This kind of being "politically correct" can get in the way of seeing a situation for what it is. Had Cindy Anthony "kept her mouth shut" or we were not allowed to sleuth her or discuss her, we might not truly understand how mentally ill she is and her impact on Caylee's life and death.

It has always been upsetting to me, when you can see through what others think is a "nice person." The words "blaming the victim" comes up. IMHO, it is not blaming the victim when the "victim" acts by their own free will and does something that is "wrong." It does not take away their status as a victim of the crime but speaks of the truth as it stands, now. The truth is the truth.

That being said: I can understand(to a degree)why BH would want to confront Joran. But, if she was doing this just for a documentary??? I don't understand that and if this will in some way give an advantage to Joran(it SHOULDN'T)-then I would think that was something BH wouldn't want to do.

I will wait for more information but I have never "admired" BH as much as some would like. Other "ahem" life(relationship)choices she has been reported to have made, make my hinky meter go way up.

Birds of a feather...or mind control? Don't know...but JVS, BH, JR, SF and her family are all "elite working class." I know what is not to be spoken about...and that is the best proof that there is more going on...

I am for the children. For the actual victim of the crime. The one who's life was taken from them by another. Any family that gets in the media, and makes their own moves, IMHO is open to the same conversations people would have about any other news.

I am on NH and SF's side. And, I am starting to wonder if JVS will ever(on this earth)pay for his crimes?

:twocents:

Very well said, Chiquita71!! You are not alone in your thinking!

 

[lonetraveler]

I feel Beth did nothing wrong, she has every right to confront that .If what she did was against the law, then who ever permitted her within its walls should be the ones in trouble.The Florez sp? family have also lost a daughter because of this but at least they have their daughters body and know exactly what happened to her by his hands.Beth and her family have been told so many lies and still have not been able to find her body.IMO He is lucky it was just a camera she had hidden and not a 45.The mental anguish she and her family have endured is horrendous.I think it is heartless to bash her for what she did.I hope some one there saw exactly how much this Mother is hurting and at least beat the arrogance out of that smug psycho.

I just want to thank you for your compassionate post. I agree 100%. I was watching Investigative Discovery channel today and a new series was advertised called "Disappeared" about missing people and their loved ones. It will feature actual cases including Brittiney Drexel. One of the mothers in the advertisement said "It isn't final until she is found". I think that one comment pretty much covers it for the people who do not know where their loved one is.

 

[lonetraveler]

Well I just sat down in front of my computer a few minutes ago and started catching up. I must say I'm not going to read this particular thread after this post because I do not want to be banned for saying what I want to say about what has been said about Beth Holloway. I'm gone.

 

[Carrington]

Altez said van der Sloot was brought to the meeting "practically by force."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/09/17/holloway.case/index.html

This story just keeps growing!

 

[LinasK]

Altez said van der Sloot was brought to the meeting "practically by force."

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/09/17/holloway.case/index.html

This story just keeps growing!

I would expect that from his defense attorney. We have to look at who is doing the talking, just as I'm sure Casey Anthony must be dragged to every hearing...

 

[suzihawk]

I just want to thank you for your compassionate post. I agree 100%. I was watching Investigative Discovery channel today and a new series was advertised called "Disappeared" about missing people and their loved ones. It will feature actual cases including Brittiney Drexel. One of the mothers in the advertisement said "It isn't final until she is found". I think that one comment pretty much covers it for the people who do not know where their loved one is.

I've followed this case diligently from the very beginning. I've not yet seen Beth do anything illegal or 'wrong". She's been determined, outspoken and steadfast in trying to find her daughter and what happened to her. She's been harshly maligned by many - even hated - and never wavered in her endeavor, although I know she must have felt beat down many times. I'm never been sure why many have the negative opinions about her except for the fact that she continually held Aruba's feet to the fire in her quest for answers.

Someone upthread compared her to Sharon Rocha (good analogy) and questioned why she didn't receive the same reactions. Good question. Both were (are) like pit bulls trying to get justice for their children - their own flesh and blood. Everyone reacts differently to the trauma of losing a child - especially under such horrific circumstances as each of these ladies had to endure. Some are so completed defeated and deflated they can't even get out bed. Others get a fire in their belly to see that justice is done to the best extent they can. My only comment is that unless one has walked a mile (or even a block) in their shoes, they have no right to judge.

I think the most Beth is guilty of is making a bad decision with regard to the latest developments. Seems like small potatoes when you think about the hell she's been through. It's taken the focus off Joran where the outrage should be.

MOO

 

[txsvicki]

What on earth is wrong with Beth taking part in a documentary if that is part of what she was doing in Peru. Maybe there ought to be one done about crimes against young women in foreign countries and how some people are never punished, plus how Joran is able to get away with partying and sex visits in this prison. Beth never gave up, but another young woman was still murdered. Hopefully, she can at least try and keep him imprisoned for as long as possible before other young women are harmed. She probably knows that he will never tell where Natalie's body was placed.

 

[otto]

It seems that someone gave Nancy Grace a heads-up that Beth was going to enter the prison on Wednesday, so it was all over the news. Beth could have done this quietly, but for whatever reason chose to have this on the news. Given that Beth wanted everyone to know that she was in Peru, everyone has an opinion about whether she made a good decision. People are defending both sides of the fence. Some say that Joran is guilty, and therefore Beth can do what she wants and visit Joran with a hidden camera in prison. Others have suggested that legally speaking it was a bad decision. Because Beth is a witness in the fraud case, her contact with Joran could be construed as witness tampering.

 

[annalia]

It seems that someone gave Nancy Grace a heads-up that Beth was going to enter the prison on Wednesday, so it was all over the news. Beth could have done this quietly, but for whatever reason chose to have this on the news. Given that Beth wanted everyone to know that she was in Peru, everyone has an opinion about whether she made a good decision. People are defending both sides of the fence. Some say that Joran is guilty, and therefore Beth can do what she wants and visit Joran with a hidden camera in prison. Others have suggested that legally speaking it was a bad decision. Because Beth is a witness in the fraud case, her contact with Joran could be construed as witness tampering.

That is untrue. She said nothing to him other than she holds no hate for him. There is no way that can be construed as witness tampering. The evidence speaks for itself in that case. Did she say anything to him regarding the extortion case? No she didn't.

And the Dutch media had already reported on this so no one had to give NG a heads up, it was already out in the Dutch press. It's misleading to say that Beth arranged for NG to air this.

 

[annalia]

Well I just sat down in front of my computer a few minutes ago and started catching up. I must say I'm not going to read this particular thread after this post because I do not want to be banned for saying what I want to say about what has been said about Beth Holloway. I'm gone.

I was having a hard time understanding the hate leveled at Beth, it seemed out of place and a little much knowing we didn't know the full story and that many of the facts were misreported, there is question whether there was even a camera snuck in, some reports have come out and said it was false and we haven't even seen what this documentary is but then I read the Beth hate site and some comments are almost verbatim and it started to make more sense. WS has always been above that, I hope it remains that way. I will have to bow out of this thread now too.

I just hope people who think they're in a position to judge a mother thank God that they have never been in her position and then go hug their kids because we never know what tomorrow will bring.

 

[otto]

That is untrue. She said nothing to him other than she holds no hate for him. There is no way that can be construed as witness tampering. The evidence speaks for itself in that case. Did she say anything to him regarding the extortion case? No she didn't.

And the Dutch media had already reported on this so no one had to give NG a heads up, it was already out in the Dutch press. It's misleading to say that Beth arranged for NG to air this.

I'm repeating what legal experts have said about Beth visiting Joran in prison. Re: the fraud charge: that she is a witness, he is the accused, and her visit to him could be construed as witness tampering. That's why many consider her visit a bad idea. Even her own lawyer has said that he would have discouraged her from the visit, and he believes she didn't tell him about it because she didn't want to hear him tell her not to do it.

I don't know what the evidence says, and no one knows what they talked about for 5 minutes. All I know is that Beth went into the prison. Joran's lawyer claims that the TV crew bribed prison employees to get Beth into the prison, and that Joran was dragged to the meeting. Joran said he couldn't talk without his lawyer, and handed Beth his lawyer's card.

I was under the impression that NG had people (JC) at the prison updating live when Beth was in the prison, but I have to admit I didn't bother watching her show.

 

[otto]

"VICTORIA MACCHI, FREELANCE JOURNALIST (via telephone): Nancy, rumors have been flying since this morning in the Van Der Sloot case down here. What we were hearing was that Beth Holloway had actually snuck into Castro Castro and gotten face to face with Joran. We heard this from sources close to Natalee`s mother, as well as Dutch media reports, who reported this incident. The Peruvian media reported it and aired alleged video from this, as well.

"MICHAEL GRIFFITH, INTERNATIONAL LAW ATTORNEY (via telephone): Nancy, I`m speechless. You`ve broken a very big story. You know, I`ve been in prisons there in Peru, and let me tell you something. Bribes are common. For two cigarettes, I got myself out of Lurigancho when they said the doors were closed.

But let me tell you why I`m speechless. Do you realize that Beth Holloway is a complainant in a criminal proceeding in Alabama? She`s a witness in Aruba. And for her to go into a prison where this man is being represented by counsel, she could considered to be, you know, tampering with a defendant. I don`t know why she would do this. This is very, very bad judgment, particularly, if she tried to bring a camera in. I`m speechless that this is going on."

NG Transcripts

 

[georger]

Well I just sat down in front of my computer a few minutes ago and started catching up. I must say I'm not going to read this particular thread after this post because I do not want to be banned for saying what I want to say about what has been said about Beth Holloway. I'm gone.

I tend to agree. Game over.

 

[hollyblue]

I can understand every move that Beth has taken up until this point. I feel for her in the lose of her daughter, her quest for answers in her daughters death, and the actions of Joran she has had to endure. I think we all worried about her in that pursuit and still do.

If she wants to do a documentary on how the actions of JVS has affected so many lives and the people closely involved (the Flores family) agree to such I see no problem with it as it may help her deal with her feelings and again bring his actions to the public forefront of how we got to the point that we are.

With that being acknowledged, her going to the point of actually bribing a prison employee, if true, is stepping over the line here, and getting herself directly involved with the Flores case. It is wrong to try and place all the blame on de Vries or anyone else for her actions, she's an adult, and made the decision to go along with it. I too understand that emotional distress in the search for answers to her daughter's demise is the fuel for it all, but she needs to check herself on this decision. Emotional distress or any other reason does not justify going around trying to get in prisons without permission.
It shines a bad light on her and has people now, as we have seen, questioning every move and her reasoning.

I'm worried for Beth now more that ever. If I had to take a guess, she may be feeling, as I stated above, the finite of it all with JVS finally behind bars; her not being able to get her answers and also her feeling that she was not the one directly involved in putting him there; ie: her day of facing him in court for her daughter's disappearance has now been taken away. She may feel she has let herself down, and Natalee's remembrance down. I'm not saying this as derogatory towards her or any way negative regarding her feelings, just what she may be feeling and she has every right in the world to that. I might feel the same way if I were in her shoes; but that is no reason to think you are allowed to break the law.

I'm not able to comment on the legal aspects of this case, because I lack the knowledge, .... I'm jumping in jwarner's boat for that angle, because I think she wants justice for Beth and the Flores family in seeing it is carried out. I also very much agree with her last post and if this does turn out to be spitting match/media circus/soap opera...I will be very disturbed because Beth's character will be put under scrutiny.

JMO

 

[georger]

I can understand every move that Beth has taken up until this point. I feel for her in the lose of her daughter, her quest for answers in her daughters death, and the actions of Joran she has had to endure. I think we all worried about her in that pursuit and still do.

If she wants to do a documentary on how the actions of JVS has affected so many lives and the people closely involved (the Flores family) agree to such I see no problem with it as it may help her deal with her feelings and again bring his actions to the public forefront of how we got to the point that we are.

With that being acknowledged, her going to the point of actually bribing a prison employee, if true, is stepping over the line here, and getting herself directly involved with the Flores case. It is wrong to try and place all the blame on de Vries or anyone else for her actions, she's an adult, and made the decision to go along with it. I too understand that emotional distress in the search for answers to her daughter's demise is the fuel for it all, but she needs to check herself on this decision. Emotional distress or any other reason does not justify going around trying to get in prisons without permission.
It shines a bad light on her and has people now, as we have seen, questioning every move and her reasoning.

I'm worried for Beth now more that ever. If I had to take a guess, she may be feeling, as I stated above, the finite of it all with JVS finally behind bars; her not being able to get her answers and also her feeling that she was not the one directly involved in putting him there; ie: her day of facing him in court for her daughter's disappearance has now been taken away. She may feel she has let herself down, and Natalee's remembrance down. I'm not saying this as derogatory towards her or any way negative on her feelings, just what she may be feeling and she every right in the world to that. I might feel the same way if I were in her shoes; but that is no reason to think you are allowed to break the law.

I'm not able to comment on the legal aspects of this case, because I lack the knowledge, but I'm jumping in jwarner's boat for that angle, because I think she wants justice for Beth and the Flores family in seeing it is carried out. I also very much agree with her last post and if this does turn out to be spitting match/media circus/soap opera...I will be very disturbed because Beth's character will be be up for questioning.

I understand Beth's frustration - dont think for a second I don't. But
progress had been made and things were basically out of Beth's hands
with things progressing - she had to do nothing. The Peruvians had made
it clear they intended to cooperate with Aruban authorities and the FBI
so something might have been leveraged about Natalie out of this ...
Joran was NOT in a good position. There was no indication Beth had
changed her basic strategy.

I have to wonder if deVries was not behind all of this? What could he
contribute to the formal proceedings under way? He has no legal standing,
period. What could he possibly offer Beth that the status quo was not already
offering. They had Joran dead-cold on wire fraud and extortion
charges! What could deVries add ?

Something seems completely out of characater to me, on Beth's side
(in her behalf).

My final recogmmendation is that officials in the United States have a serious
talk with Beth, to extricate her from whatever it is seems to
be acting against her best interests, and the sooner the better.

I am very suspicious thst Mr deVries has become a bad influence.
But this is total speculation on my part ...

good luck here.

 

[hollyblue]

I understand Beth's frustration - dont think for a second I don't. But
progress had been made and things were basically out of Beth's hands
with things progressing - she had to do nothing. The Peruvians had made
it clear they intended to cooperate with Aruban authorities and the FBI
so something might have been leveraged about Natalie out of this ...
Joran was NOT in a good position. There was no indication Beth had
changed her basic strategy.

I have to wonder if deVries was not behind all of this? What could he
contribute to the formal proceedings under way? He has no legal standing,
period. What could he possibly offer Beth that the status quo was not already
offering. They had Joran dead-cold on wire fraud and extortion
charges! What could deVries add ?

Something seems completely out of characater to me, on Beth's side
(in her behalf).

My final recogmmendation is that officials in the United States have a serious
talk with Beth, to extricate her from whatever it is seems to
be acting against her best interests, and the sooner the better.

I am very suspicious thst Mr deVries has become a bad influence.
But this is total speculation on my part ...

good luck here.

But Aruba never went to Peru or followed thru.....

 

[Chiquita71]

Hello WS

I want to say, I did not post anything about having hate for BH. Maybe it wasn't my post, but one that has been removed. Either way, even though I didn't say I hated her, I want to say I am sorry if I was offensive. I don't come to WS to cause trouble or make people upset. I come to express my opinion and read the insightful comments of others.

If this was any other thread about BH, I wouldn't have even brought up what I did, but this thread is about Beth and her "visit" to see JVS. I did not and do not deny a mother who is grieving to actively seek out answers to her daughter's disappearance. When I heard that BH flew right away to Aruba the moment she heard her daughter was missing, I said, "now that is how a mother should act when she loves her child"(thinking of the way Casey acted about Caylee being missing).

I support BH in her quest to find the answers to what happened to her daughter. What I wanted to say in my post was that I do not understand what she thought was going to come from speaking to JVS. I said that, taking into account the taunting Joran has done in the past five years, regarding what he knows about NH.

He has never, even once told the truth or given any answers. I am not trying to push a subject but clarify: I was honestly asking WHY would BH do such a thing.

I would be happy to delete my post if it is offending anyone. I do not feel so strongly about this that I meant for anyone to feel badly. I am a very questioning person and a person in the news is just that: a person in the news and I have formed an opinion of BH and I did express it in my post. But, my opinion formed re: BH is nothing I feel the need to take a stance on.

Posters here are people that I engage with "for real" and I'm not into insulting people who have love in their hearts for a woman who lost her child.

I hope I have come across well, better than I have in my last few posts. I apologize to any Websleuthers, or others I may have offended.

Thank you.

...js...

 

[hollyblue]

BBM

Love your post! And on the question of why on earth BH would even consider doing such a thing, I have no anwers, only an observation.

In these intervening years since her daughter disappeared while in the "care" of Joran, BH has had to watch Joran conduct the cruelest media circus imaginable, literally taunting the Holloway family while withholding vital information about NH's whereabouts and smearing her name while he was at it, just for extra fun I guess. Now that Joran is caged, I would personally LOVE to see the parts reversed. If BH "taunts" Joran for the remainder of his miserable life, it will be ok by me.

Your bold. I think if she takes that road, it will come back to bite her, under her self judgements later down the road. Damage. It being ok with you won't effect you at all.

JMO...taking a break from this.

 

[otto]

Hello WS

I want to say, I did not post anything about having hate for BH. Maybe it wasn't my post, but one that has been removed. Either way, even though I didn't say I hated her, I want to say I am sorry if I was offensive. I don't come to WS to cause trouble or make people upset. I come to express my opinion and read the insightful comments of others.

If this was any other thread about BH, I wouldn't have even brought up what I did, but this thread is about Beth and her "visit" to see JVS. I did not and do not deny a mother who is grieving to actively seek out answers to her daughter's disappearance. When I heard that BH flew right away to Aruba the moment she heard her daughter was missing, I said, "now that is how a mother should act when she loves her child"(thinking of the way Casey acted about Caylee being missing).

I support BH in her quest to find the answers to what happened to her daughter. What I wanted to say in my post was that I do not understand what she thought was going to come from speaking to JVS. I said that, taking into account the taunting Joran has done in the past five years, regarding what he knows about NH.

He has never, even once told the truth or given any answers. I am not trying to push a subject but clarify: I was honestly asking WHY would BH do such a thing.

I would be happy to delete my post if it is offending anyone. I do not feel so strongly about this that I meant for anyone to feel badly. I am a very questioning person and a person in the news is just that: a person in the news and I have formed an opinion of BH and I did express it in my post. But, my opinion formed re: BH is nothing I feel the need to take a stance on.

Posters here are people that I engage with "for real" and I'm not into insulting people who have love in their hearts for a woman who lost her child.

I hope I have come across well, better than I have in my last few posts. I apologize to any Websleuthers, or others I may have offended.

Thank you.

...js...

I think you ask a very important question. If the families of Ted Bundy's victims went to him for information and answers, he would toy with them. That's exactly what Joran has done with the police, media, and family of his victims. Joran's appearance is that of a normal young man, just like Ted Bundy when he wasn't murdering women. I suppose that because Joran's appearance gives the impression of a normal man, one thinks it's possible to get some answers. Joran seems to be a high functioning sociopath, and I think Beth should put this fact foremost in her thoughts before approaching him again. No matter what she does in relation to Joran, she will never get closure.

She may want to locate her daughter's remains, but if they are in the ocean that will never happen. I wish she could give herself a scenario that would allow her to go forward with her life. In her book, she seems satisfied with the idea that Natalee died accidentally and Joran hid her body. I think the mistake she may be making is in assuming that Joran is a guy that gave Natalee a fatal overdose, and then did nothing when she went into convulsions ... a bad accident. After Stephany's murder, I think she should consider the possibility that Natalee died the same way, although that would make it harder to accept. By reconsidering how Natalee died, it would help her to see Joran as a sociopath rather than a normal young man with bad character who drugs women for sex. That may bring her closer to realize that contact with Joran, like contact with any sociopath, will only cause more grief.

 

[Melanie]

By One Love:

If BH "taunts" Joran for the remainder of his miserable life, it will be ok by me.

Can you imagine living your life that way? Might as well be dead. I look at it this way, JVS is in one of the nastiest prisons and will be there for a long time (IMHO). This should bring her a bit of peace -- knowing he's not out and about drinking, gambling and killing more women.

There are so many murder victims that have yet to be found. Maybe BH is going to have to realize that her daughter may be included in that list. At some point, life has to go on. For me, knowing JVS is in prison would make that journey a little easier.

Celebrate NH's life - do not exploit it. JVS is never going to give up the location of NH, but he's in a far worse place than NH.

MOO

Mel