Aruba - Natalee Holloway, 18, Oranjestad, 30 May 2005 #1

[nums24]

Holloway and de Vries leave Aruba

http://www.cbs42.com/content/localn...Vries-leave-Aruba/EvxHMcKCy0myZsWgf6cPJw.cspx

<snipped>

Birmingham, Al (WIAT) Natalee Holloway's mother Beth has left Aruba in the company of Dutch reporter Peter de Vries. Their next stop isn't clear, but the Dutch television crew they have been working with is still on the island.

 

[KR2tonenow]

I'm having trouble with the logic of it all also. Did she and de Vries REALLY think Joran was going to set there and agree to talk to her...let alone give her a truthful statement of where NH's body is? Is it possible this was just a publicity stunt for whatever they putting together to release to public/media and just a poke-in-the-eye- to Joran that he is now behind bars and probably will be for the rest of his life? Her knowing all along the talk/confrontation/meeting wouldn't last 2 minutes? Is de Vries just pulling on her emotional heart strings for his own benefit?

I truly feel for Beth and can't imagine what emotional hellfire she must be going through, but she keeps putting herself in the same place...time after time with the results remaining the same every time and her expectations dowsed. Seems like a non-ending roller coaster.

I think at this point, if it ever comes out of Joran's mouth where her body truly is....and that's saying he truly knows, or what happen to Natalee to cause her death, it will be on JVS's own time. I don't think she or anyone else at this point can force it. It's going to be on his time clock....if ever. Sad, but he's holding the cards, albeit, in prison. Unfortunately, she needs to come to some peace....for herself. This is what these types do to a fully sane person after they become enmeshed in their lives. She will never be same, but she needs to find some kind of justification knowing he will not be able to hurt another young girl nor be free. If she could just do him in, it may be a moment of self satisfaction, but she would then be the one behind bars. But she's letting this consume her...totally. Unfortunately, unfairly, people are taken away from us daily and Beth is not alone in her anguish. I'm just afraid she's on a runaway train and I don't want her life nor anyone else to be like that. I can't imagine NH wanting that for her mother either.

Please don't get me wrong...this is a horrible, horrific and an unexplainable tragedy that no one should have to go through. But look at who/what she is dealing with. The best thing she can do is to help insure he is behind bars for good and may he be ignored except for that fact. Who's actually winning if she gets destroyed in the process? He's taken two already...is he worth another? Why give him another sick pleasure.

Prayer for you Beth.

Very beautifully said HB.

 

[KR2tonenow]

OK...I really don't want to start any rumors, but my first thought when glancing at the picture of Peter de Vries and Beth Twitty in this article .... was that they are holding hands.

But, it could be that the stop action camera shot just happened to grab their hands in this position, as they were both swinging their arms independently.

So, what do you think???

http://www.cbs42.com/content/localn...umentary/YPBJU_T6IkagbWnjZq-2JA.cspx?rss=1659

BBM
Yep, I'd say so. Must be that documentary that's bringing them closer together. <shrugs shoulders>

Whether BH was "sneaking" in the Peru prison or given the opportunity to "speak" to JVDS, now is not the time to do it. Out of respect for the Flores family, JVDS needs to go to trial first and be convicted. BH will get her chance. But unfortunately, as with all sociopaths, they LIE. So what I read over the weekend was, BH told JVDS - "there was no hate in her soul for him". Is BH worried JVDS will be dead before she purges herself? JVDS has already stated that for 5 years BH taunted him. Well, won't this episode add more fuel for him? Promoting a documentary at this time, is NOT appropriate. JMO

 

[hollyblue]

OK...I really don't want to start any rumors, but my first thought when glancing at the picture of Peter de Vries and Beth Twitty in this article .... was that they are holding hands.

But, it could be that the stop action camera shot just happened to grab their hands in this position, as they were both swinging their arms independently.

So, what do you think???

http://www.cbs42.com/content/localn...umentary/YPBJU_T6IkagbWnjZq-2JA.cspx?rss=1659

That's the first thing I saw when looking at the pic. I blew it up big time, and have to think it's the angle of the shot. Just my :twocents:, but de Vries is much better looking than JR. :innocent:

 

[hollyblue]

[
I wonder if they were planning on chatting with the Kalpoe brothers when they headed to Aruba? :waitasec:

MOO

I dont think the media has Judges, Courts, or the power of physical
restraint? Last time I check thats the way it was! Maybe by next year
it will all be the same merged and people will go to media School to get
a Law degree, and have to pass media exams?

The Kalpo brothers have been on my mind continually, since Steph was
murdered. I guess their status is free-and-clear. They sued Dr Phil for
defammation however they continue to purposefully fudge on their Visa's
so they cant even come to the US to a trial. A couple of snakes. I had
always hoped the Kalopes could be leveraged, but I guess not, which
could mean their risk of culpability outweighs their usefulness? That's ok.
There is more than one way to skin a snake, and snakes can't run, only
crawl and hide in holes.

If the Arubans ever cough anyone up it will be the Kalpo brothers.
Joran could turn on them also. Joran could spin a yarn about the
Kalpoes and pass it to 'helmet hair' which would have the Kalpoes
in instant trouble. I am sure they are aware of this and molt every week
just considering the odds. Joran has to be pleased he has these two sheep
to turn to in a real crisis! Two in hand is worth 50 in the bush and it could get
Joran time off. Im sure Joran and Anita have thought of this. It wouldnt be the
first time Joran threw someone off the brigde.

[/quote]I'm thinking the Kalpo's have something on Joran, or surely JVS would have already been betting with this pair in his sick game. There's two of them against just him. Where's Freddy now days? Maybe they are afraid of him and his cohorts.

ETA: I don't know why this is happening when I tag the quote button, I think it has to do with the quotess at the beginning and end of the posts....but it drives me nuts!!!!

Wanted to add also, that media outlets, like many major corporations, have their own legal departments to deal with such controversy.....

 

[LadyL]

even if they were holding hands, it doesn't necessarily mean anything romantic

people often clasp hands for support & well, I do it a lot just b/c I'm affectionate but moreso during times of crises

 

[georger]

That's the first thing I saw when looking at the pic. I blew it up big time, and have to think it's the angle of the shot. Just my :twocents:, but de Vries is much better looking than JR. :innocent:

I did the same. The top side of his left hand is closest to her hand (palm)
but her thumb is not rotated and is extended almost straight out in a normal gate pattern, so she is not grasping anything. It's the camera angle imho.

Now, as for that ufo alien upper left just to the right of the star Venus! ??? :dance:

 

[hollyblue]

Per latest edition of Wikipedia:

Documentary work in Peru and Aruba
On September 11, 2010, De Vries traveled to Lima, Peru with his television crew and Beth Holloway to visit Miguel Castro Castro prison where Van der Sloot was being held while awaiting trial for the murder and robbery of Stephany Tatiana Flores Ramírez.[21] According to Van der Sloot's attorney Maximo Alonso Altez Navarro, his client was taken to meet them "practically by force."[22] Altez Navarro stated that the meeting with Holloway took "less than one minute," with Van der Sloot saying that he could not speak to her without his lawyer present and handing her his business card. According to Altez Navarro, Holloway was "snuck" into the prison without being identified by the media crew who she was with.[23] A prison spokesperson stated that Holloway's name was not found in the visitor registry.[21] The group was removed from the prison, reportedly after a hidden camera was discovered by the guards.[24] Representatives for Holloway and De Vries denied that a hidden camera was involved nor was anything seized.[25] Colonel Abel Gamarra of the National Police of Peru stated that no arrests had been made.[23] On September 17, De Vries and the group left Peru for Panama and arrived in Aruba on the same day.[26] He spent a few days in Aruba working with Holloway on a documentary about her missing daughter to be run on Dutch television, reportedly with the cooperation of prosecutors who had been investigating Van der Sloot.[25]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_R._de_Vries


OK, Who is Daury, that supposedly helped with NH's body? Is that Freddy's last name? TIA

 

[hollyblue]

When dealing with a person like Joran, and when you have that moment of discovery, just how deceitful, uncaring, and how they even take joy in things despicable and know they discuss or remember it in jest is a feeling that is life changing. The only way I can describe it is like an electrical shock to your emotions and every bit of your being...realizing there truly are people capable of it all. I had never seen these particular videos before, but sat here with tears streaming down my face knowing somewhat of what she felt, but having to find out your daughter was "disappeared" this way on top of that.... I just cannot imagine...I can't even begin to fathom that. I'm sure her thoughts and heart were racing uncontrollably ---as you question yourself "Is this real?" and then realize in a nano second. Yes, it is. You are never the same. I PRAY she never watched that video of herself. I think it would bring those first moments back and then her seeing her own reaction to her thoughts....OMG.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8OGYDEnqhk&feature=channel[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqc_yMT9MbI&feature=channel[/ame]

 

[georger]

When dealing with a person like Joran, and when you have that moment of discovery ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8OGYDEnqhk&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqc_yMT9MbI&feature=channel

So much has been lost in this case. I go back to this from June 24, 2005:

" Police overheard Deepak Kalpoe tell Joran van der Sloot: "They're going to give you 15 years if they find the girl."

They also heard Joran snarl at former pals Deepak and his brother Satish: "I should have killed you."

Read it at:
http://www.nationalenquirer.com/crime/63356

So, it is very clear the Kaloes knew what happened to Natalie. So why the focus on Joran who everyone knows will never talk? The Kalpoes have always been key. Joran is aware of this. PVS was aware of this.
Anita has been aware of this all along.

And read:
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalee_Holloway[/ame]

 

[LCoastMom]

I feel sooo sorry for Beth, but it does appear that she has totally gone over the edge. I hope she can get some professional help before she totally ruins her own life. I can definitly understand a mother's love & her need for justice, but sometimes we have to wait till the next life or karma for that to happen. Joran will eventually pay for what he did to both Natalee & Stephanie but we just need to be patient or perhaps realize that we may never know when he receives his punishment.

BBM - I think it is way too late for anyone to say they hope BH gets help before she totally ruins her own life. Her life, as she knew it, ended 5 years ago last May 30 - what she has done for the last 5 years - is feel her way thru blinding grief. Some days are probably better, other days are definitely worse, but ruined for sure... not by herself - done to her, by a sociopath.

I think you ask a very important question. If the families of Ted Bundy's victims went to him for information and answers, he would toy with them. That's exactly what Joran has done with the police, media, and family of his victims. Joran's appearance is that of a normal young man, just like Ted Bundy when he wasn't murdering women. I suppose that because Joran's appearance gives the impression of a normal man, one thinks it's possible to get some answers. Joran seems to be a high functioning sociopath, and I think Beth should put this fact foremost in her thoughts before approaching him again. No matter what she does in relation to Joran, she will never get closure.

She may want to locate her daughter's remains, but if they are in the ocean that will never happen. I wish she could give herself a scenario that would allow her to go forward with her life. In her book, she seems satisfied with the idea that Natalee died accidentally and Joran hid her body. I think the mistake she may be making is in assuming that Joran is a guy that gave Natalee a fatal overdose, and then did nothing when she went into convulsions ... a bad accident. After Stephany's murder, I think she should consider the possibility that Natalee died the same way, although that would make it harder to accept. By reconsidering how Natalee died, it would help her to see Joran as a sociopath rather than a normal young man with bad character who drugs women for sex. That may bring her closer to realize that contact with Joran, like contact with any sociopath, will only cause more grief.

BBM I believe she had done that and was trying to continue on with some semblance of a different life - until word came about money paid to vds that enabled him to cross boarders and masquerade as a human - long enough to kill another daughter, sister, young woman - whose life was ended before it really began.

Now Beth has the pain / guilt / horror of knowing she was involved, however innocently, in aiding this monster's vicious murder of Stephanie and has seen photos of what the monster is capable of doing - added to 5 years of ever present pain after losing her own daughter.

Not "knowing" is usually worse than the reality - unfortunately, crime scene photos from Stephanie's murder, has to have made the "unknown" worse case scenario - more real/more possible than most people would have imagined.

Whatever danger Beth put herself (or damage to either case) in, surely paled in her mind to whatever she hoped to gain - she has been to hell, she has faced the devil head on - I kind-a doubt that Beth is frightened by much of anything these days, even prison in Peru.

 

[hollyblue]

LCoastMom, I have to repectively disagree with your last paragraph. I think it would be a very good idea for her to seek grief counseling and talk to a someone in helping her sort out all of the feelings she is/has experienced. For one, in making decisions that may affect not only her, but others also. Especially if she is having any feelings of guilt. Self condenmation is a pretty hefty load to put on yourself and wears your being down in everyway possible.

You never temp the devil....he's the first one to take you up on it...and tho she may have no fear in her pursuit, I feel she should. When playing his game you all pulled in, trying to figure out his way of thinking, and how you can manipulate him .....and his way of thinking has no inkling of normalcy..nor boundaries. It's a dangerous, dark to place to go. There's a difference in seeking justice for her daughter and an unhealthly obsession, where bad decisions can be made and the consequences just as bad. JMO

 

[LCoastMom]

LCoastMom, I have to repectively disagree with your last paragraph. I think it would be a very good idea for her to seek grief counseling and talk to a someone in helping her sort out all of the feelings she is/has experienced. For one, in making decisions that may affect not only her, but others also. Especially if she is having any feelings of guilt. Self condenmation is a pretty hefty load to put on yourself and wears your being down in everyway possible.

You never temp the devil....he's the first one to take you up on it...and tho she may have no fear in her pursuit, I feel she should. When playing his game you all pulled in, trying to figure out his way of thinking, and how you can manipulate him .....and his way of thinking has no inkling of normalcy..nor boundaries. It's a dangerous, dark to place to go. There's a difference in seeking justice for her daughter and an unhealthly obsession, where bad decisions can be made and the consequences just as bad. JMO

I don't disagree, I just don't know how much good it will do! Who has walked in her shoes? Who can tell her how to feel and what is right or wrong to do? I don't think anyone is qualified to tell her, because her situation is so unique.

vds can cry all he wants about BT stalking/taunting him - he is a proven liar, he is the one who contacted her attorney again - days after his father's death! He has confessed to the murder of Stephanie and to several different situations with Natalee - one of which or parts of some, may bare some truth.

She has been living with this monster never far from her mind for over 5 years - IDK what her purpose was in going to Peru but I sure don't think it was to tell vds that she doesn't carry hate for him in her heart/soul! That purpose would have been better served via Hallmark!

BH knows what vds is, she knows what to expect from him - there's no way that I think she went to Peru thinking he was going to open up to her or that he would be relieved to see her - hell there were pictures released of him having a good ol time in Castro Castro with all his new "friends".

 

[Lola]

So, it is very clear the Kaloes knew what happened to Natalie. So why the focus on Joran who everyone knows will never talk? The Kalpoes have always been key.

And apparently, frow what I read elsewhere they have admitted as much
from the latest deposition filed by Dr. Phil's lawyers --

Plaintiff's admissions (now confirmed by their depositions in this case) that they entered into a conspiracy with Joran Vander Sloot to confuse and frustrate the police investigation of the disappearance of an American citizen, Natalee Holloway, from the isalnd of Aruba over five years ago in order to cover up their role in the mystery of what happened to the teenager.

 

[LCoastMom]

And apparently, frow what I read elsewhere they have admitted as much
from the latest deposition filed by Dr. Phil's lawyers --

I'm not sure we can believe any of these boys (men) because they all lie through there teeth! Were they given truth serum or did they just decide it was good for their souls to come clean?

 

[Lola]

LOL -- perhaps they were afraid of the American Court system?? Anyway, they were deposed in CA and the depositions (which I have not been able to find yet) do apparently have this admission in them. What else they copped to..remains to be seen -- but the "no body, no case" originated from one of them as I recall being attributed to Paulus.

 

[suzihawk]

I'm not sure we can believe any of these boys (men) because they all lie through there teeth! Were they given truth serum or did they just decide it was good for their souls to come clean?

lol... No, no come to Jesus moment for the K2 boys. After seeing JVS come up smelling like a rose and profiting time after time for 'telling the turth', they decided they could cash in as well. They didn't count on the 'deep pockets' calling their bluff and not backing down and settling. Oopsie.


I totally agree with your previous post re: Beth.

 

[Patty G]

fftopic: Tim Miller was on Steph Watts radio show on September 19, 2010 and mentioned that Dave Holloway collapsed on a boat and was rushed to the hospital. I can't find a MSM link but here is the link to the show for reference.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/watts-up-with-this - Look for the September 19th airing.

ETA: Tim does talk about Beth going to Castro Castro. The show goes back and forth from Casey's case to Beth.

 

[georger]

And apparently, frow what I read elsewhere they have admitted as much
from the latest deposition filed by Dr. Phil's lawyers --

I have always wondered if these two exchanges define what happened to
Natalie: Deepak Kalpoe: "They're going to give you 15 years if they find the girl."
and Joran: "I should have killed you." said to Deepak and Satish. It seems like a
pretty typical type of statement for Joran to make. But Deepak's "fifteen years"
is rather specific. What level of acts would fifteen years be commensurate with in a
situation like this? Fifteen years seems to classify what Joran did (or failed to do), at
least in Deepak Kalpoes' mind. And it is all directed at Joran. The Kalpoes dont reflect
they think they are at risk ... of a fifteen year sentenece?

It also suggests that Natalie was findable (in Deepak's mind) on or around June of 2005.
Did something happen after June 2005 to make Natalie less findable - a multi stage process
involving who knows how many people?

There are crimes of comission and crimes of omission. What in the list of possible
scenarios would match a fifteen year sentence? It sounds like Deepak has something specific in
mind. I dont think fifteen years equals a murder charge on Aruba ? Some level of involuntary
manslaughter? Rape? Failure to report and get a victim help in the face of alcohol poisoning or a
seizure or an accident? Disposal of a body? Whatever it is, it equals fifteen years in Deepak's mind...
but fifteen years is limiting in the list of scenarios that could apply ... it sounds like something that
got out of hand with Natalie a participant rather than an intentional independent act of murder and/or
rape?

Obviously Joran wanted it all covered up, thus his reply to both the Kalpoes - a death threat.
They probably took that seriously, knowing Joran. But, now that Joran is in the company of
hardened criminals in Castro Castro, the Kalpoes may still take it seriously!

The Kalpoes are the weakest link in this whole scenario. I am surprised they havent left
Aruba or are in witness protection by this point ...

:waitasec:

 

[Lola]

Totally agree they were the weakest link, and I have never understood WHY they would agree to cover for Joran....and WHY they continue to...waiting for Dr. Phil's case to finish??