ARUBA - Robyn Gardner, 35, Maryland woman missing in Aruba, 2 Aug 2011 - # 4

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  • #421
HS what do you think of this claim from ABC:

A worker at the restaurant also told ABC News that Giordano returned to the restaurant less than 12 hours after Gardner vanished, this time with an attorney, and appeared "indifferent" to his girlfriend's disappearance.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/robyn-gardner-photo-vanished-aruba/story?id=14361836

It would mean GG returned to the restaurant in the middle of the night.

ABC reported that they had access to witness statements from the Aruban investigators. Now, does anyone here actually believe that the investigators are turning over witness statements to ABC news when not one word of what's going on is coming out of there? I think ABC is fabricating most of what they are reporting. There's no way they are reviewing witness statements. Nadda, none, no way. I do not believe a word they say and their reporting stinks on this case.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-woman-robyn-gardner-met-aruba-murder-suspect/story?id=14418807

"ABC News reviewed witness statements given to Aruban investigators by Gardner's family and friends"
 
  • #422
ABC reported that they had access to witness statements from the Aruban investigators. Now, does anyone here actually believe that the investigators are turning over witness statements to ABC news when not one word of what's going on is coming out of there? I think ABC is fabricating most of what they are reporting. There's no way they are reviewing witness statements. Nadda, none, no way. I do not believe a word they say and their reporting stinks on this case.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-woman-robyn-gardner-met-aruba-murder-suspect/story?id=14418807

That's pretty much what I thought when I heard that there was blood on the rocks next to where Robyn went into the water. The surf is rough and there's a tide. It's impossible that blood would be sitting on a rock even 10 minutes later let alone the next day ... in my opinion.
 
  • #423
That "small time reporter", whom we know well from the disappearance of Ms Holloway, heard that the photos on the camera were pornographic from the investigators. Taco Stein has also said that the photos were pornographic, but that this information is not really part of the investigation into the disappearance of Ms Gardner.

BBM

Do you have a link to that statement?

Sorry in advance if I am misunderstanding. It just seems that any photograph of any missing person taken within days or hours of that person going "missing" could be relevent to the investigation of their disappearance. :waitasec:

What am I missing here?
 
  • #424
That's pretty much what I thought when I heard that there was blood on the rocks next to where Robyn went into the water. The surf is rough and there's a tide. It's impossible that blood would be sitting on a rock even 10 minutes later let alone the next day ... in my opinion.

When I read that ABC report that I posted I was furious. All I kept thinking was how something like that would affect her mom and dad (being a mom myself). That they had the nerve to say they reviewed witness statements really made me angry. I mean, who in their right mind would think that the Aruban investigators would choose an American news station, ABC, to give that privilege to?

If I were a member of that family I would be checking into a libel law suit.
 
  • #425
BBM

Do you have a link to that statement?

Sorry in advance if I am misunderstanding. It just seems that any photograph of any missing person taken within days or hours of that person going "missing" could be relevent to the investigation of their disappearance. :waitasec:

What am I missing here?

Here's part of what he said on the video clip:

"TACO STEIN, ARUBAN SOLICITOR GENERAL: What I`ve heard about is that there is no indication that there is talk of duress in the pictures, but I can`t dwell upon what`s in the camera, what kind of pictures they are."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1108/18/ijvm.01.html

My understanding is that the photos depict willing participants. The photos don't seem connected to the disappearance based on what Stein said. Perhaps they were taken on a different day in a different location.
 
  • #426
When I read that ABC report that I posted I was furious. All I kept thinking was how something like that would affect her mom and dad (being a mom myself). That they had the nerve to say they reviewed witness statements really made me angry. I mean, who in their right mind would think that the Aruban investigators would choose an American news station, ABC, to give that privilege to?

If I were a member of that family I would be checking into a libel law suit.

ABC did some rather questionable things when Caylee was missing ... like paying the family for photos so the public could search for the missing child. That's bizarre if you ask me. The family should be handing out the photos in order to get help, not withholding them until there's enough money on the table. ABC should have walked away from that, but they didn't. Claims that they have the inside scoop on this missing person is equally questionable.
 
  • #427
Here's part of what he said on the video clip:

"TACO STEIN, ARUBAN SOLICITOR GENERAL: What I`ve heard about is that there is no indication that there is talk of duress in the pictures, but I can`t dwell upon what`s in the camera, what kind of pictures they are."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1108/18/ijvm.01.html

My understanding is that the photos depict willing participants. The photos don't seem connected to the disappearance based on what Stein said. Perhaps they were taken on a different day in a different location.

Ah, but this may be where our collective puritanism trips us up.

We cannot see ~those~ photos because they have been deemed "pornographic". We're not supposed to "dwell" on them.

And yet, how can they be any LESS important that the photos released by the MSM of RG and GG in the bar???

ARE they take on the same day of RG's disappearance? Or earlier? That could be important.

Also, location location location: in a hotel room or outside??? Did GG prefer rocky beaches as a backdrop?

WHO owned the camera? GG or RG?

Think about how carefully posters here blew up the pics of RG in the cafe on the beach. How they tracked the time on her watch and the reflections in her glasses. Could LE not do the same with these "rogue" photos? What tiny little clues may lie within?

As the saying goes, a picture is worth a thousand words. If the investigators can't "get over" what happens to be obvious in those pictures, then new investigators are needed.
 
  • #428
Ah, but this may be where our collective puritanism trips us up.

We cannot see ~those~ photos because they have been deemed "pornographic". We're not supposed to "dwell" on them.

And yet, how can they be any LESS important that the photos released by the MSM of RG and GG in the bar???

ARE they take on the same day of RG's disappearance? Or earlier? That could be important.

Also, location location location: in a hotel room or outside??? Did GG prefer rocky beaches as a backdrop?

WHO owned the camera? GG or RG?

Think about how carefully posters here blew up the pics of RG in the cafe on the beach. How they tracked the time on her watch and the reflections in her glasses. Could LE not do the same with these "rogue" photos? What tiny little clues may lie within?

As the saying goes, a picture is worth a thousand words. If the investigators can't "get over" what happens to be obvious in those pictures, then new investigators are needed.

My guess is that Robyn disappeared somewhere in the vicinity of the cafe on the SE tip of the Island, and the photos in the camera are not connected to the murder - presumably ruled out.
 
  • #429
My guess is that Robyn disappeared somewhere in the vicinity of the cafe on the SE tip of the Island, and the photos in the camera are not connected to the murder - presumably ruled out.

Interesting that you used the word "murder".

Also, so then you think the photographer is not connected to her disappearance or demise?

Hmmmm.

I need to think about that....:waitasec:
 
  • #430
HS what do you think of this claim from ABC:

A worker at the restaurant also told ABC News that Giordano returned to the restaurant less than 12 hours after Gardner vanished, this time with an attorney, and appeared "indifferent" to his girlfriend's disappearance.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/robyn-gardner-photo-vanished-aruba/story?id=14361836

It would mean GG returned to the restaurant in the middle of the night.

Yet again another inconsistency. We should have a separate timeline just for ABC. :maddening:

I think I've figured out the source for ABC News articles: Carla Baron! :rocker:

;)
 
  • #431
Good article on journalism as a subject. This Aruba reporting appears to be an example of a bigger problem:

Good newspapers often attribute (either in the byline or in a footnote) when “files” from other sources have been used. This is a useful piece of information for the news consumer, and it is even possible, if one has a sharp eye, to discern what the file material is likely to be.
However this is a practice rarely used in broadcasting or in online journalism. According to the Law of Delegated Trust, the publisher of material gathered from trustworthy proprietary sources (such as CP, AP, UPI, Reuters, ITV, etc.) assumes that all material thus received has previously been certified as accurate according to accepted journalistic practices.
In no case that I am aware of – except for those rare times when a news syndication service has transmitted an egregious error – do news organizations routinely explain the way this works to their consumers.
The consumer has no idea that this law exists. There is no rule of disclosure that is accepted industry-wide. There is no label on news products to inform the consumer of the “ingredients.”
When there is no system to inform or disclose accepted but hidden news practices to consumers, the news practices themselves suffer, and the risk of a catastrophic “meltdown” of trust becomes inevitable.
With the increasing dependence on digital networks for the collection and distribution of news products, the industry must develop a way to certify their output, in the same way that many other industries are doing.

http://www.journalismethics.ca/category/citizen-journalism
 
  • #432
Originally Posted by Peliman
Google earth routes the distance from Baby Beach to the Marriot tennis courts in Oranjestad on Rt. 4 to be

30.6 km = 19.6353 mi.

About 31 mins.

Can anyone verify?


There are two Marriott properties
One in Palm beach, the other end of the island , the Ren
I do not recall the distance exactly , but that sounds right
 
  • #433
Originally Posted by Peliman
Google earth routes the distance from Baby Beach to the Marriot tennis courts in Oranjestad on Rt. 4 to be

From:Renaissance Aruba Resort & Casino
L. G. Smith Boulevard 82 · Oranjestad, Aruba

To Baby Beach
19.8 km = 12.3031 mi.
OR 12 mi. and 533.5 yd

About 20 mins.

Can anyone verify?


There are two Marriott properties
One in Palm beach, the other end of the island , the Ren
I do not recall the distance exactly , but that sounds right

From:Renaissance Aruba Resort & Casino
L. G. Smith Boulevard 82 · Oranjestad, Aruba

To Baby Beach
19.8 km = 12.3031 mi.
OR 12 mi. and 533.5 yd

About 20 mins.

I'll have to correct my initial post, yes he had time to return to the hotel. We have no known witnesses that they were seen there though.
 
  • #434
That "small time reporter", whom we know well from the disappearance of Ms Holloway, heard that the photos on the camera were pornographic from the investigators. Taco Stein has also said that the photos were pornographic, but that this information is not really part of the investigation into the disappearance of Ms Gardner.

OTTO:

With reference to the photos not being part of the investigation? The following is a quote from an article in the (forgive me) National Enquirer:

" At some point, police believe Giordano realized Robyn was not going to cooperate," said the source. "So he drugged her, turning her into a narcotics-addled sex slave who would agree to whatever twisted sex acts he wanted"
"Bolstering the police theory, Giordano's camera contained graphic photos of the two performing perverted sex acts in their hotel room, sources say"
"According to investigators , it's hard to believe that any women would agree to the acts shown in the pictures," a source told The Enquirer.
"they are "beyond pornographic. "

The question is can we believe the NE?? If so those 'PHOTOS" have a great deal of relevance to the case, since they are very much a part of "motive"
 
  • #435
Most likely it would be aimed at a manslaughter charge. You can be held criminally accountable in some foreign jurisdictions if someone dies accidently as a result of reckless or irresponsible behaviour on your part.

The argument would be that if she was intoxicated, and he was aware of that, but went snorkeling anyway, then he could be held accountable.

Tugela,

I have to question the "manslaughter". Perhaps if Robyn were a minor, because then the "act of providing liquor to a minor " is illegal. But an adult is held responsible for their own actions , as long as those actions were not made under duress, right. Trust me I know a lot about making a fool of oneself while drunk, and if this is the case half of all college students would be in jail for allowing their friends to do "stupid things", some resulting in death.:crazy:
 
  • #436
Tugela,

I have to question the "manslaughter". Perhaps if Robyn were a minor, because then the "act of providing liquor to a minor " is illegal. But an adult is held responsible for their own actions , as long as those actions were not made under duress, right. Trust me I know a lot about making a fool of oneself while drunk, and if this is the case half of all college students would be in jail for allowing their friends to do "stupid things", some resulting in death.:crazy:


You are misunderstanding the point. Tugela is correct. In some jurisdictions, a person can be held criminally responsible for taking negligent or reckless actions that lead to another person's death. It's not providing the alcohol that is the issue. It's not even pumping her full of it (and/or drugs). You are correct, for the most part (with certain exceptions) a person is responsible for their own substance use. The issue is him supposedly taking her out snorkeling in that condition.

I started wondering about that when I read Stein's comment about negligent homicide. The theory is much like standard tort/negligence law (civil law) in the US -- it's an issue proximate cause. That is, did GG's conduct in effect cause her death, in the sense that absent his conduct she would not have died?

If that's all they've got, is a theory based on his own "admissions" that he negligently caused her death...then I'm not feeling too good about this. OTOH, it may just be what they are using to keep holding him, while they investigate a murder charge.
 
  • #437
But the point is that it was reported from Aruba, blood and a condom, that they were both being tested. ABC didn't just make it up.

Would the Aruba Herald be a source?

TS then later comes out and says no blood and no condom, is that how it happened? Then blame it all on the bad US media?

NG isn't ABC and that's where I suspect blood may have turned into bloody handprint, from NG. But the fact that they had found blood, had also been reported from Aruba in the Aruba Herald.


I went and looked at the dates and times of the articles, and it was ABC that first reported the blood on a rock, not the Aruba Herald.

timeofarticle.jpg



http://abcnews.go.com/search?searchtext="gary giordano"#30_date-asc

In that article:
Authorities said that that they found blood on a rock behind the dive shop at the Rum Reef Bar & Grill, which is the last place the two were seen together.



http://abcnews.go.com/International...tors-focus-insurance-policy/story?id=14321496


Time of Aruba Herald article:

arubaherald.jpg



http://arubaherald.com/911/863-poss...-womans-case-condom-and-blood-on-a-stone.html


So I had it right.

ETA: Also, it is Stein that is reportedly saying that ABC made it up. That to me is so far south of accepted journalism practices that it is unlikely. What is likely however is that someone (and the common author of the ABC articles is Alexa Miranda, and it just so happens to be her job to track down and get statements from sources) is not following accepted journalist protocols in reporting on this story. It appears that someone duped her into thinking he worked with Aruban Law Enforcement as an investigator and then gave her a lot of bogus information.

Here is another example of bogus information from the same article:

Investigators have also said that they had trouble identifying Giordano in surveillance video because he frequently changed his toupees.

Here is what CNN Martin Savidge said about that:

There is a lot of misinformation you will find on this island which is why the reporting has to be very careful. There were reports that Giordano would wear different toupees to try to confuse the security cameras that maybe watching him at any different time. Authorities have laughed that off and said that`s just not the case. He has one toupee and he wasn`t doing anything like that.

So the reporting on this, you have to be so careful. There`s just so much out there obviously.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1108/22/ijvm.01.html

My issue with ABC is not that they are making stuff up, it is that they are not being careful in what they report, resulting in false information that leads to wasted time in trying to piece together what happened to RG. Savidge has done a pretty good job of steering clear of these rocks, so I know it can be done.
 
  • #438
Interesting that you used the word "murder".

Also, so then you think the photographer is not connected to her disappearance or demise?

Hmmmm.

I need to think about that....:waitasec:

Police have said that she is most likely deceased, but ... true ... it is a suspicious disapearance and not a murder at this time. Contrary to what you wrote, I have said that my understanding, based on statements made by Taco Stein, is that the 🤬🤬🤬🤬 images in the camera are not the focus of the investigation ... and that suggests to me that they do not reveal any information about the disappearance.
 
  • #439
You are misunderstanding the point. Tugela is correct. In some jurisdictions, a person can be held criminally responsible for taking negligent or reckless actions that lead to another person's death. It's not providing the alcohol that is the issue. It's not even pumping her full of it (and/or drugs). You are correct, for the most part (with certain exceptions) a person is responsible for their own substance use. The issue is him supposedly taking her out snorkeling in that condition.

I started wondering about that when I read Stein's comment about negligent homicide. The theory is much like standard tort/negligence law (civil law) in the US -- it's an issue proximate cause. That is, did GG's conduct in effect cause her death, in the sense that absent his conduct she would not have died?

If that's all they've got, is a theory based on his own "admissions" that he negligently caused her death...then I'm not feeling too good about this. OTOH, it may just be what they are using to keep holding him, while they investigate a murder charge.

By all accounts, they were both drunk. How can one drunk person be responsible for the actions of another drunk person?
 
  • #440
OTTO:

With reference to the photos not being part of the investigation? The following is a quote from an article in the (forgive me) National Enquirer:

" At some point, police believe Giordano realized Robyn was not going to cooperate," said the source. "So he drugged her, turning her into a narcotics-addled sex slave who would agree to whatever twisted sex acts he wanted"
"Bolstering the police theory, Giordano's camera contained graphic photos of the two performing perverted sex acts in their hotel room, sources say"
"According to investigators , it's hard to believe that any women would agree to the acts shown in the pictures," a source told The Enquirer.
"they are "beyond pornographic. "

The question is can we believe the NE?? If so those 'PHOTOS" have a great deal of relevance to the case, since they are very much a part of "motive"


I think the focus of the investigation is to find Robyn, not explore reasons why she might have had a disagreement that may have led to murder. Once she is found, cause of death can be examined and then, if it is deemed to be a murder, motive can be explored. However, if she does not appear to be under duress in the photos and if she has a documented history of agreeing to model under all conditions (per her mayhem profile), then the photos prove nothing.
 
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