Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #7 *Arrest*

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  • #181
It would never even occur to me to taste a meal while cooking it; I don't think my parents ever did when I was growing up so I never started, I wasn't actually aware non-chef people did.

I can't even see what I'd gain from it; maybe if I was an expert taster and cook I might be able to figure out if it needed more salt, herbs, whatever, but I'm not and I'd have no idea what to add/change even if I did taste a difference. Maybe a personal inability, it strikes me rather like singing - I know I'm out of tune but I don't know what direction to go to make it right; flavour is the same, I know when a meal didn't taste as good as normal, but can't tell what the difference was to change it.

Was EP a trained chef? I don't recall that being mentioned, but it's been a while since I read the early articles. I wouldn't automatically assume a non-chef to be in the habit of tasting, given just the examples in this thread (and those I've seen in my own family) of people who don't.

I assume you have to be a decent cook to attempt preparing Beef Wellington. My paternal grandmother would be the one to risk making a new dish from a scratch, but she was gifted at doing everything “lege artis”, in this case, following the cookbook to a perfection. But since the gift for cooking runs in her family, I remember all of them - her, my dad, aunt and cousin - tasting the meals. They really cared how it would taste to the people they cooked for. My dad would also make me taste (“do you like it?”) But of course, no two cooks are the same.
 
  • #182
To raise reasonable doubt she would require evidence, not just a theory, or a motive.

I don't see anything reasonable about a theory that someone knew what she was going to cook, she wouldn't use ingredients she herself bought, wouldn't fall ill through tasting the food before the guests arrived, would make herself a safe plate and survive to face the consequences, and would dispose of kitchen equipment.

It's the kind of example they would use in court to explain to a jury what a reasonable doubt does not look like.

JMO
 
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  • #183
It would never even occur to me to taste a meal while cooking it; I don't think my parents ever did when I was growing up so I never started,

Not at all uncommon in my experience. Both of my grandmothers and my mother would taste home made soups, gravy, sauces, etc, to determine if more condiments or spices were needed according to their own taste. And the results were always great.
 
  • #184
I think we most definitely can discount that when we consider that prosecutors have also charged Patterson with attempting to kill her ex-husband on three other occasions: in November 2021, May 2022, and September 2022, not to mention her various actions reportedly trying to destroy evidence.

IMO she's a practised poisoner, no doubt about it whatsoever.
Yeah, I tend to agree and lean towards Occam’s Razor on this one.
I would entertain the idea, however, that the intention may have been to maim rather than kill (like previous attempts), and that this attempt turned out to be wildly successful in the worst possible way….perhaps that would partly explain the clumsy attempt to cover-up afterwards
 
  • #185
To me this case looks bizarre from every angle but I guess poisoners have their own brand of madness…
 
  • #186
<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

Other thing I find interesting is that the alleged killer was understood to be quite academically, if not socially, intelligent. I’m confused by the clumsy cover-up of trying to dispose of a dehydrator afterwards in a way that would almost certainly be found out.
Do you think the alleged perpetrator is being undone by arrogance (ie they think they’re smarter than everyone else and won’t get caught) or do you think they are so singularly focused on the immediate act and outcome that they don’t consider the inevitable consequences and prepare for those? I find that so bizarre and can’t wrap my head around it.
 
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  • #187
<modsnip - quoted post was removed>
Other thing I find interesting is that the alleged killer was understood to be quite academically, if not socially, intelligent. I’m confused by the clumsy cover-up of trying to dispose of a dehydrator afterwards in a way that would almost certainly be found out.
Do you think the alleged perpetrator is being undone by arrogance (ie they think they’re smarter than everyone else and won’t get caught) or do you think they are so singularly focused on the immediate act and outcome that they don’t consider the inevitable consequences and prepare for those? I find that so bizarre and can’t wrap my head around it.

The second. I think that she is smart, but obsessive, and once she feels slighted by the person, she can’t get unstuck. I also think that no one would have thought about the dehydrator were it her first time. But I assume that when Simon started suspecting his wife of attempting to poison him, he didn’t let her know. He even promised to come to the meeting but failed to appear. Perhaps both families expected something to happen and took some antidote, but not against poisonous mushrooms. So I imagine: E. is sitting in the hospital, Simon is alive, she is probably making the next plan and the dehydrator is on her mind and suddenly SP asks her if that was the tool! I think she panicked. JMO.
 
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  • #188
The second. I think that she is smart, but obsessive, and once she feels slighted by the person, she can’t get unstuck. I also think that no one would have thought about the dehydrator were it her first time. But I assume that when Simon started suspecting his wife of attempting to poison him, he didn’t let her know. He even promised to come to the meeting but failed to appear. Perhaps both families expected something to happen and took some antidote, but not against poisonous mushrooms. So I imagine: E. is sitting in the hospital, Simon is alive, she is probably making the next plan and the dehydrator is on her mind and suddenly SP asks her if that was the tool! I think she panicked. JMO.
I agree with most of this, just not the bit about the victims expecting something to happen, and taking an antidote. I can't see those 4 elderly people doing that, just can't.
 
  • #189
I think that she is smart, but obsessive, and once she feels slighted by the person, she can’t get unstuck.

Reportedly abrasive by nature:

“She’s very bright and much brighter than people might think. She managed to get guys wrapped around her little finger although she was very unkempt … and she was abrasive.”

Her former colleague recalled an incident where she yelled at the head of the air traffic control department for tripping on her headset cord.

“I remember in the first week that she started in the job somebody walked behind her and tripped on a cord that was on the floor that was attached to her headset. She turned around and yelled ‘you right you buffoon?!’ It was the head of the air traffic control department. She didn’t hold back.”


 
  • #190
Probably safest. Mushrooms is one of those things you can't afford to get wrong. I've cooked all my life, but I would never forage for them, because the consequences are deadly if you misidentify. Especially with something like death caps.

Former country-Victoria kid here. We foraged for "mushies" every season. We knew to avoid the ones that had the wrong coloured gills, but I know now that isn't actually a foolproof way to decide what's edible and what's not. I don't think we were in the minority either - I know I foraged with my friend from the neighbouring property too, when we were out riding our ponies together.
 
  • #191
I agree with most of this, just not the bit about the victims expecting something to happen, and taking an antidote. I can't see those 4 elderly people doing that, just can't.
Since she was suspected to use nightshade previously, the expected poisonous alkaloid would have been atropine, so the antidote, like pilocarpine, is also a widely used substance. It is used to treat mouth dryness or glaucoma. But you are right; perhaps they decided to take their chance but told Simon to stay at home.
 
  • #192
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  • #193
I found this article interesting. It was not behind a paywall for me, so I hope others can see it.


In short, three people in California are recovering after mistaking death cap mushrooms for edible white button mushrooms.

I was surprised because I had the impression from this thread that just a taste of death cap mushrooms could be enough to kill a person. While the three people in this article were young and healthy, and while they may have some liver damage, it doesn't appear they came close to losing their lives.

MOO
 
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  • #194
I found this article interesting. It was not behind a paywall for me, so I hope others can see it.


In short, three people in California are recovering after mistaking death cap mushrooms for edible white button mushrooms.

I was surprised because I had the impression from this thread that just a taste of death cap mushrooms could be enough to kill a person. While the three people in this article were young and healthy, and while they may have some liver damage, it doesn't appear they came close to losing their lives.

MOO
There's relatively new research (from 2023) showing that there's more variation in toxicity among different death caps than previously thought. And apparently, the Californian varieties are less toxic.

Each death cap individual possesses a unique suite of MSDINs, and toxin genes are significantly differentiated between Californian and European samples.
Maybe it's similar to chili peppers. Some jalapeños are incredibly spicy, while others you can eat by the bushelful with no ill effects.
 
  • #195
  • #196
There's relatively new research (from 2023) showing that there's more variation in toxicity among different death caps than previously thought. And apparently, the Californian varieties are less toxic.

Each death cap individual possesses a unique suite of MSDINs, and toxin genes are significantly differentiated between Californian and European samples.
Maybe it's similar to chili peppers. Some jalapeños are incredibly spicy, while others you can eat by the bushelful with no ill effects.

OK, i know such cases, but the context would be different. Someone gathers some mushrooms. They smell well but look strange. People check phone apps to receive no coherent answer.

Then people would go to FB groups, post poorly taken photos and someone says, "oh, i know, it is *use any unknown name for a mushroom*. I gather them every autumn; cook them with a lot of butter, eat with potatoes and vodka; they are great!"

This is a traditional recipe for disaster, but perhaps a lot of vodka is the reason that traditional mushroom-gatherers are still alive.

But seriously, I joined a couple of groups and they served as a strong deterrent against foraging. Mushroom apps are not helpful either.

I never saw anyone recommending to dehydrate them, though. Usually people mistakenly gather wrong mushrooms and consume them. Mushroom gathering is not to save money, it is to have fun. The prosecutors have to talk to a couple of foragers to see the difference between them and EP.

The whole situation is very different. Mushroom foragers make mistakes because, having walked around for a long time, they get hungry and want to eat. It is a very different behavior. It is also a group activity.

This Salinas group is typical. A) it is a group, typically weekend pass time. B) They shared their forage. A very typical setup.

I would also like to know if the group from Salinas consisted of immigrants. The same mushrooms in different parts of the world look different. So it is easier to make a mistake of "i know what it is" type. Usually, such people used to be "experienced foragers" back home. Anyhow - I wish the Salinas group to get well soon. It is a common mistake to make.
 
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  • #197

What to expect inside the courtroom during the Erin Patterson murder trial​



I had to remind myself of the start date of the trial. 28th April. Still so far away. So much for skipping a committal and "fast tracking" to trial.


Her trial is expected to start on 28 April 2025 in the supreme court, sitting in Morwell.
Erin Patterson to face trial nearly two years after allegedly murdering relatives with mushroom lunch
 
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  • #198
When I was reminded about the trial date, my first thought was that it didn't seem as far away as I thought.
I thought only a few months to go.
 
  • #199
There is a Preliminary Argument tomorrow in the Supreme Court, in Melbourne.

Daily Hearing List
 
  • #200
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