Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #4

[Charlot123]

She said she bought the fresh mushrooms - button mushrooms - in a store and the dried mushrooms at an earlier time from an asian store didn't she?

Yes, she provided a smart explanation. She did not forage mushrooms but accidentally might have used the one with amatoxin. From either a local store chain or an Asian store, doesn’t remember which store, good luck finding it.

Now, I have a number of questions about these dried mushrooms in a package with a handwritten label, but maybe we should ask Asians-Australians to participate.

Melbourne is growing and the population of its Asian immigrants is growing in numbers, but I can see that it is still much smaller than Australian-born group. So I assume that local Asian stores have to target both Asians and non-Asian Australians. Especially where she bought it - in Waverley? Let us discuss what area it is.

What I noticed about Asian stores that are located both outside of Asia and in touristy areas of Asia is the same.

1) I usually don't understand what I buy, and it is especially true about teas. They can look, smell and taste very, very exotically. So yes, I trust the vendors.

2) it might be a cheap package, but the labels are beautiful. They are 1/3 of the attraction of the packages. Even to seal the package if they sell by weight, they use attractive labels.

3) if it is handwritten, it is usually translated into English, too. In tourist areas, everything is translated. I took some photos in different stores of Beijing because the handwritten translations were hilarious and I am a natural hooligan. It probably can't be posted here, but the point is, for Asian stores in Melbourne, how common would it be to write something in Chinese or Japanese or Korean - only! - for a customer that doesn't speak these languages? They target all population of Melbourne. They want to be known. Unless it is a Cantonese store and you, a well-known Cantonese-speaking customer, then, maybe. But this doesn't apply to EP. (Anyone of Asian origin living in Australia, wouldn't it seem odd to you?)

I am a Caucasian person living in a city with a huge percentage of Asians. We have Asian stores. I would say, the trend is to target absolutely all ethnic groups. And if the vendors are new and don't speak good English, sometimes their kids help in spare time. The reason is simple: our Asian community is heterogeneous. There is no one "Asia" to speak of. Same in Melbourne. I can't believe that EP, a smart woman, couldn't even tell if it was a Chinese or a Japanese store, for example. If she did, could her statement have been at variance with the reality? (What Asian store she bought mushrooms from vs what Asian country predominantly imports mushrooms to Australia). I think she didn't make a mistake here, but who knows.

 

[Charlot123]

It’s all so confusing!

I actually thought/assumed the dehydrator was tipped the Saturday after the meal.

Saturday 29th July - meal
Friday 4th August - Gail and Heather pass away
Saturday 5th August - Don passes

I had assumed that with EP saying she dumped it after her husband had said ‘is that what you used to poison them’ whilst they were visiting in hospital … that this meant she dumped it Saturday 5th August.

Question now is, has someone got mixed up and reported the wrong Saturday or has EP provided another porky pie?

If the latter, I’d advise not to eat it. MOO

I think it was dumped on the 31st of July. This is what I read.

 

[kittythehare]

You'd think so.

I'm not so sure in this case.

In so many cases they fixate on one person of interest and that's it.

The way I'd see an investigation like this going would be all the hospital, forensic and laboratory liaisons..
All victims and suspects mobile phone and social media accounts subpoenaed.
All victims and suspects financial affairs fully investigated and subpoenaed.
All relevant CCTV examining everyone's houses for a week prior to and a week subsequent to the poisonings..
Witnesses from lives of victims and suspects, family members circling out to acquaintances all interviewed..
phone line manning for tips etc..

and that's just a tiny bit..

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Yes, she provided a smart explanation. She did not forage mushrooms but accidentally might have used the one with amatoxin. From either a local store chain or an Asian store, doesn’t remember which store, good luck finding it.

Now, I have a number of questions about these dried mushrooms in a package with a handwritten label, but maybe we should ask Asians-Australians to participate.

Melbourne is growing and the population of its Asian immigrants is growing in numbers, but I can see that it is still much smaller than Australian-born group. So I assume that local Asian stores have to target both Asians and non-Asian Australians. Especially where she bought it - in Waverley? Let us discuss what area it is.

What I noticed about Asian stores that are located both outside of Asia and in touristy areas of Asia is the same.

1) I usually don't understand what I buy, and it is especially true about teas. They can look, smell and taste very, very exotically. So yes, I trust the vendors.

2) it might be a cheap package, but the labels are beautiful. They are 1/3 of the attraction of the packages. Even to seal the package if they sell by weight, they use attractive labels.

3) if it is handwritten, it is usually translated into English, too. In tourist areas, everything is translated. I took some photos in different stores of Beijing because the handwritten translations were hilarious and I am a natural hooligan. It probably can't be posted here, but the point is, for Asian stores in Melbourne, how common would it be to write something in Chinese or Japanese or Korean - only! - for a customer that doesn't speak these languages? They target all population of Melbourne. They want to be known. Unless it is a Cantonese store and you, a well-known Cantonese-speaking customer, then, maybe. But this doesn't apply to EP. (Anyone of Asian origin living in Australia, wouldn't it seem odd to you?)

I am a Caucasian person living in a city with a huge percentage of Asians. We have Asian stores. I would say, the trend is to target absolutely all ethnic groups. And if the vendors are new and don't speak good English, sometimes their kids help in spare time. The reason is simple: our Asian community is heterogeneous. There is no one "Asia" to speak of. Same in Melbourne. I can't believe that EP, a smart woman, couldn't even tell if it was a Chinese or a Japanese store, for example. If she did, could her statement have been at variance with the reality? (What Asian store she bought mushrooms from vs what Asian country predominantly imports mushrooms to Australia). I think she didn't make a mistake here, but who knows.

I agree with this, I live in a huge city and we have stores of every type imaginable. It annoys me when people say 'Asian' (we don't tend to do that in the UK as a form of shorthand). Usually if the shop is selling the products of the country of origin, you'd say 'the chinese supermarket' or the 'indian food store' or etc.

OK so sometimes there's streets where it's hard to determine accurately which country of origin a vendor is selling products from unless you're a bit more worldly wise for example could be Thailand, Vietnamese, Japanese, Sri Lankan, Taiwan, Korean, Chinese etc and maybe some bigger stores are selling products for people of all nations. So it could easily be confusing.

But simply say 'an asian' store seems a bit vague, lazy and ignorant to me as you'd surely know was it Chinese or Japanese or Indian. Also if one had gone deliberately to get a particular dried mushroom wouldn't you know?

 

[katydid23]

When the 4 v

Doctors’ notes and lab results will either support EP’s claims or not. It’s unlikely the hospital would have refused treatment given the circumstances, even for legal purposes. Standard labs would be off and certainly her doctor would have run a liver function test before giving her a “ liver protection drug.”

Perhaps that’s why LE stated that she didn’t get sick- investigators may have spoken with her doctor. She clearly was well enough to haul a food dehydrator to the tip.

If EP intentionally fed those poor people poisonous mushrooms I hope she spends the rest of her life in prison.
All MOO

One very important thing we should take into account is that the 4 victims were able to seriously discuss their situation with the hospital when they arrived feeling ill.

The first thing the doctors were going to do was ask the four of them what meals have you all eaten together? Where'd you go and what did you all eat and drink?

If there were other meals or snacks or coffee shops they went to before or after the lunch with EP, no matter how small, they would have shared that info with the doctors and investigators.

But for the first few weeks the investigators were solely focused upon the Beef Wellington and EP. Even though they say they are open minded, they have not warned the public about anything besides foraging wild mushrooms. IMO

 

[katydid23]

I agree with this, I live in a huge city and we have stores of every type imaginable. It annoys me when people say 'Asian' (we don't tend to do that in the UK as a form of shorthand). Usually if the shop is selling the products of the country of origin, you'd say 'the chinese supermarket' or the 'indian food store' or etc.

OK so sometimes there's streets where it's hard to determine accurately which country of origin a vendor is selling products from unless you're a bit more worldly wise for example could be Thailand, Vietnamese, Japanese, Sri Lankan, Taiwan, Korean, Chinese etc and maybe some bigger stores are selling products for people of all nations. So it could easily be confusing.

But simply say 'an asian' store seems a bit vague, lazy and ignorant to me as you'd surely know was it Chinese or Japanese or Indian. Also if one had gone deliberately to get a particular dried mushroom wouldn't you know?

Unless you want it to be vague, and don't really want anyone to be able to narrow it down.

 

[SouthAussie]

RSBM

But simply say 'an asian' store seems a bit vague, lazy and ignorant to me as you'd surely know was it Chinese or Japanese or Indian. Also if one had gone deliberately to get a particular dried mushroom wouldn't you know?

These stores call themselves Asian Markets here.

These are a couple of examples from Mount Waverley, where EP says she bought the dried mushrooms. But it is the same in the city that I live in, in another state.

LionCity Asian Grocery, Mount Waverley
TK Asian Supermarket in Mount Waverley
Coomart Asian Supermarket in Mount Waverley
Google link

Occasionally we will see a specifically Japanese market or Korean market, for example, but many/most generically call themselves an Asian market. We understand they specialise in bok choy, lemongrass, hoisin sauce, etc.

 

[Oona]

I think it was dumped on the 31st of July. This is what I read.

Not sure about the 31st, do you have a source for that? Of course it is possible but according to EP’s statement that is the Monday she was conveyed to the Monash hospital.

“She said she was transported by ambulance from the Leongatha Hospital to the Monash Medical Centre in Melbourne on July 31.” (ABC News 14/8/2023)

 

[Charlot123]

These stores call themselves Asian Markets here.

These are a couple of examples from Mount Waverley, where EP says she bought the dried mushrooms. But it is the same in the city that I live in, in another state.

LionCity Asian Grocery, Mount Waverley
TK Asian Supermarket in Mount Waverley
Coomart Asian Supermarket in Mount Waverley
Google link

Occasionally we will see a specifically Japanese market or Korean market, for example, but many/most generically call themselves an Asian market. We understand they specialise in bok choy, lemongrass, hoisin sauce, etc.

OK, Asian market, even bigger then. But how typical would it be for a vendor to sell you something in a package with something handwritten (in Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, whatever) only? I shall try to walk into my ethnic store and ask what are the rules of marking imported products, I suspect they are specific. Or if not, call my favorite "Asian" vendor and ask what the rules are. Marking imported products is under some regulations, everywhere. This seems to be the part of the story that raises questions, all the more so that EP don't look super trusting.

 

[Charlot123]

Not sure about the 31st, do you have a source for that? Of course it is possible but according to EP’s statement that is the Monday she was conveyed to the Monash hospital.

“She said she was transported by ambulance from the Leongatha Hospital to the Monash Medical Centre in Melbourne on July 31.” (ABC News 14/8/2023)

I am trying to find it. The first time I just googled "the timeline of Leongatha mushroom poisoning". I was looking for the time the symptoms appeared and the article said, at night. The dumping of dehydrator was on 31st which surprised me. I shall try to find it again tomorrow as tonight same googling yields another articles.

ETA: I found the article that says that the dehydrator was disposed the day after the luncheon and that an nighttime the Ps and the Ws were pretty ill but this is not the one that I originally saw. I shall keep on looking.

https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/courts-law/exhusband-of-mushroom-mum-erin-patterson-almost-died-from-sudden-gut-illness/news-story/db6624ef427b9d965b50e7f1fd163206

 

[SouthAussie]

OK, Asian market, even bigger then. But how typical would it be for a vendor to sell you something in a package with something handwritten (in Mandarin, Cantonese, Japanese, whatever) only? I shall try to walk into my ethnic store and ask what are the rules of marking imported products, I suspect they are specific. Or if not, call my favorite "Asian" vendor and ask what the rules are. Marking imported products is under some regulations, everywhere. This seems to be the part of the story that raises questions, all the more so that EP don't look super trusting.

From what I can see, labelling on imported foods is definitely regulated, specific info must be on the labels.

Non-imported foods have a Standard that they are supposed to meet. I don't know how regulated it is.

I don't think we actually know if the dried mushrooms that EP says she bought were imported, or something grown in a family veggie plot and then dried to sell in their store.

Labelling information for consumers | Food Standards Australia New Zealand

www.foodstandards.gov.au

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Some of the Asian stores I've been into in Sydney over the years didn't have any signs in English.

If asked to name which one I bought something from out of a row of similar stores months later, I doubt that I would have remembered. I would have remembered the general area, and that's all.

 

[silvercrown]

These stores call themselves Asian Markets here.

These are a couple of examples from Mount Waverley, where EP says she bought the dried mushrooms. But it is the same in the city that I live in, in another state.

LionCity Asian Grocery, Mount Waverley
TK Asian Supermarket in Mount Waverley
Coomart Asian Supermarket in Mount Waverley
Google link

Occasionally we will see a specifically Japanese market or Korean market, for example, but many/most generically call themselves an Asian market. We understand they specialise in bok choy, lemongrass, hoisin sauce, etc.

I agree with this. I’m in another part of Australia and it is totally common for stores to be called something like ‘(name)‘s Oriental Supermarket, or ‘(name) Asian grocer’.
In my experience these kinds of places are not all encompassing and would not sell specialty Indian grocery items. Indian grocery stores operate independently to Asian grocers and I would say just as common. If EP referred to an Asian market she is not meaning Indian or Japanese (which are becoming increasingly common stores too!). All moo and based on where I shop where I live.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Some of the Asian stores I've been into in Sydney over the years didn't have any signs in English.

If asked to name which one I bought something from out of a row of similar stores months later, I doubt that I would have remembered. I would have remembered the general area, and that's all.

If i were a POI, i would be trying very hard to narrow down which shop.
And trying to remember, all those months ago, why I got those mushrooms and why did I select that package. Impulse buy? Recipe? Did they look particularly lovely? Was the handwriting English? If not, why select those? It would help me remember.
If the item was a branded item I automatically buy on shopping trips, say OXO stock cubes, I probably wouldn’t remember. But an unusual item you might be more likely to recall because you needed to really read the label, price and examine the item, remember why you bought them in an unusual place. If you know quite a bit about mushrooms, you might be a bit more interested in what you are buying - flavour, color, texture, even “dry” because they will be in your food. There are so many types for cooking and they do look different even when dry.
I think she would be able to narrow it down if she really could …

 

[Salah11]

Didn’t she own a home in the area she claims to have brought the mushrooms so it’s hardly believe she can’t remember where she brought them in that case?

imo

 

[JBowie]

Didn’t she own a home in the area she claims to have brought the mushrooms so it’s hardly believe she can’t remember where she brought them in that case?

imo

Reportedly she owns a townhouse in the suburb of Mt Waverley VIC where she clams to have bought 'those' mushrooms. I have read that neighbors say that townhouse was largely vacant for long periods.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/new-details-emerge-of-mushroom-cooks-family-tragedy/news-story/5935ef40d3cb3fa4090e9936224c11aa

Asian grocers deny deadly cook 'bought' fatal fungi from their shops

Asian grocers selling mushrooms in the region that supposedly sold the killer fungi to stay-at-home-mum Erin Patterson deny they are responsible for three deaths.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Ellery84]

If i were a POI, i would be trying very hard to narrow down which shop.

I think iirc the Daily Mail reporter went door to door to the “Asian” shops in that area, asking questions about their mushrooms.


IMO


From what I read, none of the “Asian” grocery stores the Daily Mail visited were selling Death Caps, investigative-reporter style….

“Asian grocers in Mount Waverley have vehemently rejected any suggestion Erin Patterson could have bought killer mushrooms from their stores.”

“On Tuesday, Daily Mail Australia visited Asian grocers in and around the heart of the suburb's busy shopping precinct.”

Asian grocers deny deadly cook 'bought' fatal fungi from their shops

Source: Wayne Flower, Melbourne Correspondent, DMA

Personal note - I actually really enjoy Wayne’s reporting in this alleged crime/mystery. He’s not afraid to get out there and get his boots dirty, so to speak.

It’s old-school reporting and I’m here for it.

 

[Salah11]

I think the Daily Mail reporter went door to door to the “Asian” shops in that area, asking questions about their mushrooms.

From what I read, none of the “Asian” grocery stores the Daily Mail visited were selling Death Caps.

Of course not because more people would of died of a outbreak as she even said she brought them months before If i remember correctly.

 

[Ellery84]

Of course not because more people would of died of a outbreak as she even said she brought them months before If i remember correctly.

100 percent.

IMO the epidemiology (public health aspect of the case) speaks for itself.

There is no outbreak. Just a cluster of suspected mushroom deaths confined to one household of guests.

IMO

 

[Ellery84]

Of course not because more people would of died of a outbreak as she even said she brought them months before If i remember correctly.

I wonder if there’s any public health or medical journals that report genetic resistance to Mushroom toxicity.

Like some sort of gene that I’d you have that particular genetic or DNA mutation, the Death Cap mushroom poison will not affect you.

Just an idea. IMO