Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #4

[AussieIan]

Could they themselves have eaten poisonous mushrooms before the meal? MOO

As has been covered many times why would EP present at hospital saying she was also sick if that was the case

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

We love our coffee shops in Australia, even small places seem to have heaps.

I live in the UK but remember this about Australia! Also that lots of different styles of fresh coffee beans were on sale in so many places, not like here in the UK where we 'do' coffee but the average person would never buy fresh beans.

Anyhow for this reason I wondered if EP served them all a coffee after the meal. Any type of strange flavour could be hidden by the bitterness of coffee beans and also could be explained as a new type she'd bought.

Someone posted up thread that even just liquid extracted from DC mushrooms can kill. Also until we get forensic verification, personally I'm staying open to it possibly being a different toxin.

 

[Kemug]

Right, and if there was the slightest chance that an Asian market near Melbourne had sold dried Death Caps to a customer, there would have been urgent announcements and warning weeks ago.

Clearly, the investigators don't believe that version of the story. JMO

And it is irrelevant if the investigators believe the story about the Asian market or not. Facts are facts, and the fact is that if an Asian shop was selling deathcaps, other people would have died.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Early on my number one theory was that EP did actually forage death cap mushrooms by mistake and was too terrified to admit it. In part because IMO it’s almost impossible to imagine that she would intentionally poison the very people she loved, including a woman whom she said she considered another mother.

And not just poison but use a poison that brings on an unimaginable amount of pain.

But after watching videos of her responses to reporters and especially her statement given to her lawyer and somehow leaked to the press that theory dropped down lower on the list.

Anyway, has anyone else considered that EP foraged the mushrooms by mistake or otherwise?

All JMO

Yes I believe she may have foraged the mushrooms in error and is now in tailspin / childish denial / terror, as she knows she must have made a mistake but is in cognitive dissonance or even mental breakdown.

I have many other theories too:

- that EP has been set up to look like a poisoner and in fact the poisoning was before / after the meal
(I have someone in mind for that theory) obv cannot elaborate as she is the only named PoI;

- that someone wanted to poison all five people at the meal and EP got very lucky for some reason;

- that a childish prank could be involved and involves a minor - we can't discuss here;

- that 'The Four' could have been targeted by an outside person - nothing to do with the Patterson family -someone who they shared either a food or beverage with some time before or after being at EP's;

- that one of The Four accidentally poisoned all of them prior or after being at EP's because they had mistakenly foraged DC mushroom and served up a snack (hence EP is unaffected as wasn't there);

- that EP set out to poison only one person - her ex husband - who then didn't turn up for lunch but she got muddled up and emotional, somehow poisoned everyone else with the deadly substance anyhow or maybe they unexpectedly helped themselves to something;

- that EP absolutely set out to poison everyone (seems a bit extreme) and did. She avoided the poison by making sure it was in the gravy sauce or in their coffees or a dessert she didn't eat and tucked into her dinner the same as they did.

What I don't understand about deliberate poisoning theory is that EP is an intelligent thoughtful woman. If she does know about DC mushrooms, she would know the severity of symptoms and their rapid onset and deadly outcome. She would know she's going to be identified as the person who served something deadly to the group. She would surely imagine that health & safety inspectors or LE would want to come and search her kitchen and discuss everything she'd served in detail - at that point they would be trying to stop an epidemic of fatalities in the same area, not thinking she's a murderer. She would know since there aren't widespread fatalities, that she will be identified as a poisoner, that this is going to be an absolute scandal and wild allegations would be raised, that her husband will turn on her and join in with accusations, that her children and friends would be aware she forages and has the dehydrator.

If she did this on purpose, why didn't she just say she served a mushroom sauce using dried powdered wild mushrooms foraged in the local area. A pack of dried powder she'd had in the cupboard for three months now and never used before. It would be SO hard to prove any intent.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

And it is irrelevant if the investigators believe the story about the Asian market or not. Facts are facts, and the fact is that if an Asian shop was selling deathcaps, other people would have died.

Or one person committed a one off single event of tampering with the store goods - substituting the regular dried mushrooms for deadly dried mushrooms.

That would be exceptional and bizarre but it's not beyond all possibility. There are such individuals who tamper with store stock for sick reasons and they could easily do a single event -or- a very small number event and thus far the dots haven't been joined if other people have died for the same reason.

LE would need to know how many people have died of 'gastro' symptoms in the wider area. It could be the case that a victim of poisoning would simply think they're terribly unwell with gastro and never pull through. How far into their deaths would anyone look?

My own mother died within two days of sudden onset sickness and diarrhoea and nobody cared to investigate if she'd been poisoned. She died at home alone and all her doors and windows were locked. I tried to ask the coroner to do more in depth checks but they literally don't care when an elderly person dies (she wasn't even very old, just over 70) and there's no sign of a break in or struggle - there's no way they were sending her organs and body fluids of for testing against each type of poison etc or mounting a possible criminal investigation despite I find it highly possible for various reasons.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

And it is irrelevant if the investigators believe the story about the Asian market or not. Facts are facts, and the fact is that if an Asian shop was selling deathcaps, other people would have died.

Not if some crazy person only put one packet of poison mushrooms in the shop and EP was the unlucky one who bought it.

It's not like something like this has never happened before.

 

[Salah11]

Not if some crazy person only put one packet of poison mushrooms in the shop and EP was the unlucky one who bought it.

It's not like something like this has never happened before.

Yes but then you also have to look at the fact she then didn’t get sick . She claims she did but that’s certainly very questionable because look at her other guests. Then add in the fact she lies.

So unlucky enough to be the only person to buy Death Cap mushrooms but then lucky enough to not end up on life support or dead. It doesn’t add up!


Moo

 

[Charlot123]

I live in the UK but remember this about Australia! Also that lots of different styles of fresh coffee beans were on sale in so many places, not like here in the UK where we 'do' coffee but the average person would never buy fresh beans.

Anyhow for this reason I wondered if EP served them all a coffee after the meal. Any type of strange flavour could be hidden by the bitterness of coffee beans and also could be explained as a new type she'd bought.

Someone posted up thread that even just liquid extracted from DC mushrooms can kill. Also until we get forensic verification, personally I'm staying open to it possibly being a different toxin.

A different toxin - maybe
Powdered Amanita in Irish coffee is possible IMHO. Or in port wine. Most articles comment on “wonderful taste” of amanita phalloides mushrooms, so presumably it is not an unpleasant toxin. I just hope that even the powder contains spores that could be collected from GI tract of a person who had been poisoned.

 

[Ellery84]

Not if some crazy person only put one packet of poison mushrooms in the shop and EP was the unlucky one who bought it.

It's not like something like this has never happened before.

I completely agree! Remember the needle in the strawberry saga? I still always cut my strawberries in half before consuming them. It has become something that has stuck with me.

Personally I think the grocery store where she purchased the button mushrooms from (starting with the letter W) might be covering their own rear-end here, it is in fact poisoning by Death Cap Mushrooms.

Also until we get forensic verification, personally I'm staying open to it possibly being a different toxin.

@Observe_dont_Absorb I agree, and at the moment I’m really open to any and all possibilities.

I don’t know enough about the forensic or pathology details to say which poison was involved in their deaths, and I want to reserve my judgement a bit on that.

 

[Procrastinator]

Has it been posted here before about the the Under Investigation episode (at 31.29 on You Tube "Deadly Mushroom Lunch") where it's intimated in discussion that the dehydrator was dropped off at the Koonwarra Transfer Station Saturday morning before the lunch? I can post the link but wasn't sure if ok to do.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Yes but then you also have to look at the fact she then didn’t get sick . She claims she did but that’s certainly very questionable because look at her other guests. Then add in the fact she lies.

So unlucky enough to be the only person to buy Death Cap mushrooms but then lucky enough to not end up on life support or dead. It doesn’t add up!


Moo

Regarding whether she got sick or not, we aren't clear on the truth of the hospital admission -but- if she was taken to hospital in an ambulance (we haven't had this verified) and that ambulance recorded the relevant vital signs of possible food poisoning, in terms of documentation, she's got that covered. A court of law cannot dispute the medical records of frontline workers and hospital medics.

It is slightly possible that due to her younger age, possibly the fact she's much heavier in body than the others, and maybe even she has some form of eating disorder and purged after the meal or uses laxatives etc... that she somehow got off more lightly. Maybe she genuinely barely ate at the meal due to nerves. Maybe her body expelled the poison very quickly and she had been vomiting almost immediately.

it would be very hard to argue against these things in court.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

A different toxin - maybe
Powdered Amanita in Irish coffee is possible IMHO. Or in port wine. Most articles comment on “wonderful taste” of amanita phalloides mushrooms, so presumably it is not an unpleasant toxin. I just hope that even the powder contains spores that could be collected from GI tract of a person who had been poisoned.

I've also wondered, if she did this, if she loaded up something knowing that SP would consume it but none of the others would. Such as an alcoholic beverage if she knew he would always want an Irish coffee after dinner and she knew certainly that the others rarely drink.

Imagine the horror if you turn your back and the four elders are slugging the loaded booze into their coffees and glugging it down...

 

[Oona]

Has it been posted here before about the the Under Investigation episode (at 31.29 on You Tube "Deadly Mushroom Lunch") where it's intimated in discussion that the dehydrator was dropped off at the Koonwarra Transfer Station Saturday morning before the lunch? I can post the link but wasn't sure if ok to do.

Yes that is an interesting detail.
I think it is likely the dehydrator was dumped before the alleged accusatory question from SP “is that what you used to poison my parents?” We don’t even know if that question was actually asked, it is only EP’s version of events from her statement.

 

[Sjöberg]

I think the reasons why I am not 100% sold on the "intentional poisoning by EP" theory just yet (though I do consider it likely) are
* Based on the info we have, there is no motive for her to kill these 4 people.
* Her reactions. These to me do not really line up with someone who was planning so hard that she pre-foraged the death caps months before, dehydrated them, kept them in the house for months, cooked an elaborate meal for the four... and then only throws away the dehydrator after being accused by her ex and has no cover story whatsoever? I have seen cases before where a smart criminal make stupid mistakes of course, but it's more like her reaction that's off here, to me she did seem to be caught by a surprise by all this. If she did plan something, I feel like things did not went the way she planned.
* There are two people not poisoned by this meal, not one. (The cook not eating a lot would not surprise me. The person with a motive or two to kill 3-5 of them not showing up to a meeting that might have been about his own marriage, this does raise my eyebrow.)

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Has it been posted here before about the the Under Investigation episode (at 31.29 on You Tube "Deadly Mushroom Lunch") where it's intimated in discussion that the dehydrator was dropped off at the Koonwarra Transfer Station Saturday morning before the lunch? I can post the link but wasn't sure if ok to do.

Well that, if it happened, would be incredibly incriminating.

 

[Ellery84]

where it's intimated in discussion that the dehydrator was dropped off at the Koonwarra Transfer Station Saturday morning before the lunch

I’m sure I’ve seen the link to that programme floating around in this thread….

So do you have the exact wording or transcript from the part that you say states she dropped or the dehydrator at the tip before the lunch began?

Thank you so much in advance

IMO

 

[Salah11]

Regarding whether she got sick or not, we aren't clear on the truth of the hospital admission -but- if she was taken to hospital in an ambulance (we haven't had this verified) and that ambulance recorded the relevant vital signs of possible food poisoning, in terms of documentation, she's got that covered. A court of law cannot dispute the medical records of frontline workers and hospital medics.

It is slightly possible that due to her younger age, possibly the fact she's much heavier in body than the others, and maybe even she has some form of eating disorder and purged after the meal or uses laxatives etc... that she somehow got off more lightly. Maybe she genuinely barely ate at the meal due to nerves. Maybe her body expelled the poison very quickly and she had been vomiting almost immediately.

it would be very hard to argue against these things in court.

The fact she never mentioned she was taken to hospital in an ambulance in her statement I think is telling. If she was that poorly then you would think she would use that as evidence that it couldn’t be her as she was quite sick.

I think the reasons why I am not 100% sold on the "intentional poisoning by EP" theory just yet (though I do consider it likely) are
* Based on the info we have, there is no motive for her to kill these 4 people.
* Her reactions. These to me do not really line up with someone who was planning so hard that she pre-foraged the death caps months before, dehydrated them, kept them in the house for months, cooked an elaborate meal for the four... and then only throws away the dehydrator after being accused by her ex and has no cover story whatsoever? I have seen cases before where a smart criminal make stupid mistakes of course, but it's more like her reaction that's off here, to me she did seem to be caught by a surprise by all this. If she did plan something, I feel like things did not went the way she planned.
* There are two people not poisoned by this meal, not one. (The cook not eating a lot would not surprise me. The person with a motive or two to kill 3-5 of them not showing up to a meeting that might have been about his own marriage, this does raise my eyebrow.)

There is one person of interest there has no mention of anybody else. Most cooks when cooking taste as they go it’s very surprising to me she isn’t dead if her lunch caused this entire mess imo

 

[Procrastinator]

I’m sure I’ve seen the link to that programme floating around in this thread….

So do you have the exact wording or transcript from the part that you say states she dropped or the dehydrator at the tip before the lunch began?

Thank you so much in advance

IMO

Here's the link to YouTube "Australian mushroom deaths: Inside the family lunch that killed three | Under Investigation"

Damian Marrett, a Private Investigator, spoke about his interaction at the Koonwarra Transfer Station (31.29)

 

[MsMarple]

The fact she never mentioned she was taken to hospital in an ambulance in her statement I think is telling. If she was that poorly then you would think she would use that as evidence that it couldn’t be her as she was quite sick.



There is one person of interest there has no mention of anybody else. Most cooks when cooking taste as they go it’s very surprising to me she isn’t dead if her lunch caused this entire mess imo

Doctors’ notes and lab results will either support EP’s claims or not. It’s unlikely the hospital would have refused treatment given the circumstances, even for legal purposes. Standard labs would be off and certainly her doctor would have run a liver function test before giving her a “ liver protection drug.”

Perhaps that’s why LE stated that she didn’t get sick- investigators may have spoken with her doctor. She clearly was well enough to haul a food dehydrator to the tip.

If EP intentionally fed those poor people poisonous mushrooms I hope she spends the rest of her life in prison.
All MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Doctors’ notes and lab results will either support EP’s claims or not. It’s unlikely the hospital would have refused treatment given the circumstances. Standard labs would be off and certainly her doctor would have run a liver function test before giving her a “ liver protection drug.”

Perhaps that’s why LE stated that she didn’t get sick- investigators may have spoken with her doctor. She clearly was well enough to haul a food dehydrator to the tip.

If EP intentionally fed those poor people poisonous mushrooms I hope she spends the rest of her life in prison.
All MOO

Regarding the 'liver protection drug' (which some people have speculated was Milk Thistle - something relatively harmless), would the doctors have performed a liver function test to check her liver was functioning normal and therefore could withstand the 'liver protection drug' -or- would they have needed to see there was a problem with her liver in order to justify giving her the 'liver protection drug'?