Australia Australia - Celine Cremer, 31, Belgium backpacker, car found at the Philosopher’s fall track, Waratah, Tasmania, 12 June 2023

[NingNang]

A plastic bag strikes me as something you might carry in your small pack. But, if you were wearing it against wet, why would you take it off before you got back to your car?

If she had hypothermia, she may have become confused and disoriented. People with severe hypothermia are known to do irrational things like take their clothes off. It's so sad to think about.

 

[iamshadow21]

Most backpackers bring a small fold-up daypack to take for a walk, to carry water, snack, etc.

A plastic bag strikes me as something you might carry in your small pack. But, if you were wearing it against wet, why would you take it off before you got back to your car?

Has it been specified the bottle was glass? At any rate, many concientous tourists try to avoid waste by refilling one bottle.

My concern is, if lost, she might have gone a long way off track, in no particular direction.

JMO

There are pictures of the bottle.

'Potential shelter' found in bushland search for Celine Cremer

Searchers find a water bottle and a garbage bag that may have been used as a poncho in the Tasmanian bushland where Belgian tourist Celine Cremer went missing.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Rocket333]

A couple of questions about the water bottle and garbage bag that were found today:

1. I saw a comment on Facebook by a random person claiming that Celine’s backpack was found inside her car, suggesting she wouldn’t have taken many items with her on the walk. I can’t find any news source over the past 2+ years of reporting that confirms this claim. Does anyone know if this is true?

2. Rob Parsons posted on Facebook today that the brand of water bottle (Ossa) was sold at the restaurant Celine worked at (Lure Wine Bar). But from what I can tell, the restaurant she worked at was at Coles Bay on the East coast, a long way from this region where she disappeared. What are the chances she would be carrying a glass water bottle from her restaurant while travelling around Philosopher Falls? (It could still be hers though, perhaps she just bought it at a local shop.)

Any thoughts?

I think forensic testing of the water bottle and garbage bag will be crucial. I wonder if her DNA could possibly survive on these items for 2+ years?

You can buy Ossa bottled water in Woolworths and local shops so it’s not hard to get. The bottle found had an expiry date of April 2024.

The return walk from the car park is only 2km’s so you wouldn't bother taking much. If the garbage bag and water were hers, she was probably wearing the bag and holding her phone, car keys and water in her hands or pockets.

'Potential shelter' found in bushland search for Celine Cremer

Searchers find a water bottle and a garbage bag that may have been used as a poncho in the Tasmanian bushland where Belgian tourist Celine Cremer went missing.

www.abc.net.au

 

[acutename]

Most backpackers bring a small fold-up daypack to take for a walk, to carry water, snack, etc.

A plastic bag strikes me as something you might carry in your small pack. But, if you were wearing it against wet, why would you take it off before you got back to your car?

Has it been specified the bottle was glass? At any rate, many concientous tourists try to avoid waste by refilling one bottle.

My concern is, if lost, she might have gone a long way off track, in no particular direction.

JMO

yes... when you watch that searcher's YouTube, you see that off the track, the area there is just a massive tangle of vines and leaves and underbrush. He wears gaiters and gloves because of all the thorns and scratchy stuff and off the track, you cannot see 10 ft in front of you and the ground undulates. I am a little surprised that anyone would try a"short cut" through that terrain.

 

[Rocket333]

yes... when you watch that searcher's YouTube, you see that off the track, the area there is just a massive tangle of vines and leaves and underbrush. He wears gaiters and gloves because of all the thorns and scratchy stuff and off the track, you cannot see 10 ft in front of you and the ground undulates. I am a little surprised that anyone would try a"short cut" through that terrain.

I agree. Given that rough terrain, the time of day, the weather, and the relative ease of returning to the car via the designated falls path, it makes me wonder if Celine stepped off the track to avoid, or even go around, someone who was on it. It also raises the question of whether she might have been followed from Waratah, or if she told someone there she was heading to the Falls and staying the night. I haven’t heard anything though about her phoning for help at any point, so who knows.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

It could have all started by her dropping her phone, by accident and with the light fading and the conditions worsening she wasn't able to find it and got impossibly lost with no way to contact anyone.

 

[NingNang]

I agree. Given that rough terrain, the time of day, the weather, and the relative ease of returning to the car via the designated falls path, it makes me wonder if Celine stepped off the track to avoid, or even go around, someone who was on it. It also raises the question of whether she might have been followed from Waratah, or if she told someone there she was heading to the Falls and staying the night. I haven’t heard anything though about her phoning for help at any point, so who knows.

Just throwing this out there (and apologies to Celine's family and friends if this sounds gruesome - I'm just trying to outline plausible alternatives.) What if she was attacked and the attacker took her phone? For example, the veering off the designated path could be the attacker dragging her away into the dense bush. Perhaps something horrible then happened, and the attacker then continued on through the bush in a bid to avoid being seen by anyone on the main path. This could be why the phone leaves all these GPS points showing a highly unconventional journey through dense scrub, with apparently no calls or texts for help. When the attacker's adrenaline subsides and he realises that her phone is trackable, he throws it away into the bush before fleeing the scene. He may then have removed or hidden her remains over any number of days (it was a long time until anyone noticed her missing, so a perpetrator would have had many opportunities to come back and shift her body).

I agree there's no actual evidence of foul play (this is all 100% speculation), but it surprises me how many people just assume that all of the phone's GPS coordinates must be Celine's conscious decisions about where to go. We don't know who was holding that phone as it moved around.

 

[Rocket333]

Just throwing this out there (and apologies to Celine's family and friends if this sounds gruesome - I'm just trying to outline plausible alternatives.) What if she was attacked and the attacker took her phone? For example, the veering off the designated path could be the attacker dragging her away into the dense bush. Perhaps something horrible then happened, and the attacker then continued on through the bush in a bid to avoid being seen by anyone on the main path. This could be why the phone leaves all these GPS points showing a highly unconventional journey through dense scrub, with apparently no calls or texts for help. When the attacker's adrenaline subsides and he realises that her phone is trackable, he throws it away into the bush before fleeing the scene. He may then have removed or hidden her remains over any number of days (it was a long time until anyone noticed her missing, so a perpetrator would have had many opportunities to come back and shift her body).

I agree there's no actual evidence of foul play (this is all 100% speculation), but it surprises me how many people just assume that all of the phone's GPS coordinates must be Celine's conscious decisions about where to go. We don't know who was holding that phone as it moved around.

I get where you’re coming from, but the isolation and ruggedness of that spot makes the whole “attacker dragging her off into the scrub” idea pretty hard to picture. That terrain is brutal and going off the Falls path would throw you into an endless and exhausting obstacle course rather than a shortcut back to the car. It would completely slow anyone down, make them more likely to get hurt or lost, and definitely not make escaping easier.

That place is also remote, and if you were there to attack someone you possibly would not need to leave the main walk to carry out the attack or to avoid being seen. The remoteness of the car park and on the Philosopher’s Falls walk already gives plenty of cover. That’s why it doesn’t make much sense to imagine someone bothering to haul a person — or even just a phone — through that kind of inhospitable ground. There’s no advantage in it, and no reason to ever go off the path unless you were hiding or lost your way I think.
This is why the water bottle and garbage bag will most likely turn out to be Celine’s. Not many would venture to that area easily or willingly as there’s no need to be there.