Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, Jun 1997

[Mel 1303]

Interesting info. Do you happen to know if Marion would have had be there in person to change her name, or could someone with access to her documents apply on her behalf? Also, wonder if she obtained a passport with name Florabella, would she have had to relinquish passport with M Barter? Or might she physically have both.

I don't know if she would have been asked to surrender her passport under Marion Barter or not, but all she would need to say is that she lost it. She could potentially have passports with 5 names- Marion Wilson, Marion Warren, Marion Brown, Marion Barter, Florabella Remakel.

 

[tempcoops]

Sounds like others have the same impression I have but wasn't going to mention...

It would also explain why the sisters, best friend and I'd say even Dad don't share Sally's concerns or need for answers. They know where she is, and why she left - IMO.

 

[sunnynz]

The more i hear about this the more suspicious i become. Interesting that nothing has been heard since they admitted they had been checking about the wrong bank.
I think there may be some attention seeking going on, and the podcasters have just realised.

I've been following this for a while, and always had similar suspicions Gary. So much doesn't add up. I get that time has passed and memories fade - but I'd be thinking something like the bank would be etched. What's the term for reverse munchausen?

Websleuths is a victim-friendly forum. As the daughter of a missing person, sally is a victim. You can think whatever you like but this isn’t the place to share it. This is supposed to be a safe place for victims and their families.

New members, please familiarise yourselves with the TOS

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Thanks Intrigued .... so this deed poll name change doc may not lead to much at all then - might just be useful to check the handwriting - reason for name change and some other info contained therein could be of interest I guess. Not sure.

The reason why would be pretty good to know. The witness/JP details would still be informative (where the certification was done and the manner of lodgement) but the people themselves probably didnt discuss anything much with her and probably wouldnt remember her.

 

[Garyb]

Websleuths is a victim-friendly forum. As the daughter of a missing person, sally is a victim. You can think whatever you like but this isn’t the place to share it. This is supposed to be a safe place for victims and their families.

New members, please familiarise yourselves with the TOS

Isnt the victim marion.

 

[sunnynz]

Isnt the victim marion.

Here are the rules for your perusal. Numbers 10 and 11 most relevant. Victims and their families are grouped together.
Terms of Service & The Rules

 

[Mel 1303]

Thats interesting Mel1303. Could she have graduated in her maiden name?

I had a comment deleted from the Facebook page too. Wayback when the bank withdrawals were first discussed i posted a comment saying that I had been a teller at a regional branch at the time Marion disappeared and that a $5k cash withdrawal wasnt uncommon or memorable and suggested FTRA as the possible reason for the withdrawals. There were lots of people posting the opposite of what I said so I assume my comment was deleted to avoid disagreements on the page.

Just by chance- do you remember when call centres were available for people to call the bank outside of opening hours? I still cant call mine, but I bank with a smaller bank.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Just by chance- do you remember when call centres were available for people to call the bank outside of opening hours? I still cant call mine, but I bank with a smaller bank.

Um not sure. I joined the bank in 93 and at that time the one I worked for already had phone banking available outside of branch hours.
I cant remember the hours of operation sorry - maybe 6pm weekdays and some weekend coverage.
There were separate call centres for Telephone banking and Card Services with different operational hours. In 96 securities were centralized and there more call centres for lending (apply/enquiries).

 

[Meligator]

I can understand someone changing their name to assume a new identity, but as far as anyone can tell, Florabella Remakel isn’t being used by her (there doesn’t seem to be any record or recognition of anyone using that name).

Anyhow, I just keep questioning the purpose of the name change. Why go so off-grid with the Florabella identity? Anyone who can stay that undetected as Florabella could have probably done so as Marion

 

[Mel 1303]

I can understand someone changing their name to assume a new identity, but as far as anyone can tell, Florabella Remakel isn’t being used by her (there doesn’t seem to be any record or recognition of anyone using that name).

Anyhow, I just keep questioning the purpose of the name change. Why go so off-grid with the Florabella identity? Anyone who can stay that undetected as Florabella could have probably done so as Marion

The name change was prior to her abruptly leaving her job and selling her home. She had time to change her name and apply for a passport in that name. If, as Florabella, she was able to obtain citizenship of a European country, she could then change her name again, and completely disappear. In Australia, she only changed her name on her passport- everything else was in Marion Barter. My theory- she changed her name on her passport so she could come back into the country without being traced, liquidate her assets, and then move on with whatever the rest of the plan was. Did she plan to disappear forever? No idea- but whatever the plan was, it kept being ruined. Sally, through no fault of her own, busted her mother with mystery man. Sally found out she was back in the country. The security guard at Ashmore, where she lived for a number of years (where she was not a tourist, but a local), was the one who identified her, who had the message "tell Sally I'm angry about the car". Marion's attempts to do things under the radar kept getting stuck. Why the $5000 a day? Intriguedbyintrigue mentioned the FTRA- Financial Transaction Reporting Act.
Marion was trying to stay unobserved, and would have for a long time, had the bank not revealed what was going on in Byron.

 

[Itsapuzzle]

Just by chance- do you remember when call centres were available for people to call the bank outside of opening hours? I still cant call mine, but I bank with a smaller bank.

Found this in the good 'ol Trove archives from October 1997 - wonder if this is the phone number Sally rang back in '97.
10 Oct 1997 - Colonial : Contacting Colonial - Archived Website - Trove

 

[Meligator]

The name change was prior to her abruptly leaving her job and selling her home. She had time to change her name and apply for a passport in that name. If, as Florabella, she was able to obtain citizenship of a European country, she could then change her name again, and completely disappear. In Australia, she only changed her name on her passport- everything else was in Marion Barter. My theory- she changed her name on her passport so she could come back into the country without being traced, liquidate her assets, and then move on with whatever the rest of the plan was. Did she plan to disappear forever? No idea- but whatever the plan was, it kept being ruined. Sally, through no fault of her own, busted her mother with mystery man. Sally found out she was back in the country. The security guard at Ashmore, where she lived for a number of years (where she was not a tourist, but a local), was the one who identified her, who had the message "tell Sally I'm angry about the car". Marion's attempts to do things under the radar kept getting stuck. Why the $5000 a day? Intriguedbyintrigue mentioned the FTRA- Financial Transaction Reporting Act.
Marion was trying to stay unobserved, and would have for a long time, had the bank not revealed what was going on in Byron.

Makes sense. In that case Marion would have left Australia using Marion Barter (or wilson etc) passport (we know she didn’t leave using Florabella passport and we know she didn’t change name again in Australia).... wonder if Sally has asked about other Marion passports being used.

Also, (this may fit with Mel 1303 theory) I’ve been wondering why it was revealed to Sally that Marion changed her to Florabella. The police have insisted on respecting Marion’s privacy & revealing Florabella name seems inconsistent with this privacy stance. Perhaps when Sally was informed about the Florabella name— authorities already knew Marion had changed her name again and was no longer Florabella.

 

[Mel 1303]

Makes sense. In that case Marion would have left Australia using Marion Barter (or wilson etc) passport (we know she didn’t leave using Florabella passport and we know she didn’t change name again in Australia).... wonder if Sally has asked about other Marion passports being used.

Also, (this may fit with Mel 1303 theory) I’ve been wondering why it was revealed to Sally that Marion changed her to Florabella. The police have insisted on respecting Marion’s privacy & revealing Florabella name seems inconsistent with this privacy stance. Perhaps when Sally was informed about the Florabella name— authorities already knew Marion had changed her name again and was no longer Florabella.

I think this revelation was one of the things that Garry Sheehan was trying to do quietly when he visited Sally- the documents he left on the table when he went to the bathroom, so that she could understand why it seemed as though Marion had chosen to walk away. Sally has shared the info publicly, so there is no point denying it now. There was a man who signed as witness to the photo on the new passport, who Garry Sheehan interviewed as per episode 4 and confirmed that he knew her and that it was her.

What I am really stuck on with the name is how Sally found out that Marion had re entered the country. Marion Barter did not return to Australia- Florabella Remakel did. How did Sallys friend in customs find the record, but not notice that it was a completely different name?

 

[Meligator]

I think this revelation was one of the things that Garry Sheehan was trying to do quietly when he visited Sally- the documents he left on the table when he went to the bathroom, so that she could understand why it seemed as though Marion had chosen to walk away. Sally has shared the info publicly, so there is no point denying it now. There was a man who signed as witness to the photo on the new passport, who Garry Sheehan interviewed as per episode 4 and confirmed that he knew her and that it was her.

What I am really stuck on with the name is how Sally found out that Marion had re entered the country. Marion Barter did not return to Australia- Florabella Remakel did. How did Sallys friend in customs find the record, but not notice that it was a completely different name?

Oh wow. Good question! The podcast hasn’t provided much background or detail on the “friend in customs” story. I’d forgotten that source of info.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

The name change was prior to her abruptly leaving her job and selling her home. She had time to change her name and apply for a passport in that name. If, as Florabella, she was able to obtain citizenship of a European country, she could then change her name again, and completely disappear. In Australia, she only changed her name on her passport- everything else was in Marion Barter. My theory- she changed her name on her passport so she could come back into the country without being traced, liquidate her assets, and then move on with whatever the rest of the plan was. Did she plan to disappear forever? No idea- but whatever the plan was, it kept being ruined. Sally, through no fault of her own, busted her mother with mystery man. Sally found out she was back in the country. The security guard at Ashmore, where she lived for a number of years (where she was not a tourist, but a local), was the one who identified her, who had the message "tell Sally I'm angry about the car". Marion's attempts to do things under the radar kept getting stuck. Why the $5000 a day? Intriguedbyintrigue mentioned the FTRA- Financial Transaction Reporting Act.
Marion was trying to stay unobserved, and would have for a long time, had the bank not revealed what was going on in Byron.

Yes! I like your theory Mel1303 it fits.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

What I am really stuck on with the name is how Sally found out that Marion had re entered the country. Marion Barter did not return to Australia- Florabella Remakel did. How did Sallys friend in customs find the record, but not notice that it was a completely different name?

Yes that is strange. For the friend to have found the record something must have been in Marion's name because they were unaware of Florabella at that stage. Could it be that the airline tickets were in Marion's name but she used the Florabella passport? I know when you change your name theres a period of time (I think a year??) where you can use either name. That makes no sense though because doing that documents a link between the two names which defeats the purpose of changing your name to avoid detection.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

I can understand someone changing their name to assume a new identity, but as far as anyone can tell, Florabella Remakel isn’t being used by her (there doesn’t seem to be any record or recognition of anyone using that name).

Anyhow, I just keep questioning the purpose of the name change. Why go so off-grid with the Florabella identity? Anyone who can stay that undetected as Florabella could have probably done so as Marion

Personally I think the Florabella name was a stepping stone and not the name she intended to use as her new identity. I think the name had a specific purpose firstly to sneak back into the country (while everyone thought she was still overseas) and secondly to register the storage container so that her possessions could disappear with her.

Beyond that i think Marion dropped Florabella for something else. Given that there are no more name changes and that the police could not find activity under her other known names, it suggests to me that as Mel has said she may have changed her name while overseas and potentially obtained a UK passport (possibly through marriage)

 

[Mel 1303]

Yes that is strange. For the friend to have found the record something must have been in Marion's name because they were unaware of Florabella at that stage. Could it be that the airline tickets were in Marion's name but she used the Florabella passport? I know when you change your name theres a period of time (I think a year??) where you can use either name. That makes no sense though because doing that documents a link between the two names which defeats the purpose of changing your name to avoid detection.

Wouldn't the tickets have to match the passport if you are entering another country?

 

[SheMantis]

Just saw that Sally is back in Luxembourg... LEADS?! Remakel was too much of a coincidence.

**EDIT: ok I was a bit trigger happy, she was just posting an old photo. Damn it.

 

[Intriguedbyintrigue]

Wouldn't the tickets have to match the passport if you are entering another country?

I would think so, but there might be a way it could happen

I had a look on the Australian High Commission (UK Embassy) page
Passports FAQs
There were two interesting points. Firstly "An Australian passport is conclusive evidence of a persons identity and citizenship and provides the holder with unfettered right of entry to Australia"

The second was a FAQ "Can I travel on my passport if the name differs from the name on my airline ticket".
The response is: "Any specific questions regarding what an airline will accept as proof of identity should be directed to the airline".

So from this I take it that Marion could have travelled with tickets in a different name to her Australian passport when returning to Australia providing the airline she travelled with was satisfied the two names were one and the same person.

Makes no sense why Marion would do that - but it might explain how the friend at customs knew Marion had entered the country without knowing the florabella name.