Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #11

[gymtonic]

This makes sense. I found it weird in Jo’s testimony the stop over in Bali seemed pointless. As did the Amsterdam leg of the trip… nothing touristy seemed to be done in Bali nor Amsterdam.. seems strange to me going and not actually seeing or doing much. So it makes perfect sense that stopovers are required to switch identities before arriving in Europe. I suspect maybe the tickets are done in legs to. Eg. Australia - Bali one airline then Bali - Amsterdam different airline. If not the same passport would have to be used.

Amsterdam and Bali? hmmm I thought at the time. Amsterdam to Sussex/Essex UK well known drug smuggling route. Bali? Shapelle Corby? Bali 9? pointless activities in both places? even more suspicious.

 

[gymtonic]

Thank you so much It's a crystal clear explanation and gives good insight, especially as you did they same things in you own life.

Now I just want to know what you mean by "If it was deliberately requested to cancel the insurance then it implies certain things?"

I think I wrote this a bit loosely because I am still leaning towards a (IMO) view that it has just lapsed on that date due to MB signing over the car to SL and leaving it place to cover the car in the interim (in other words an innocent explanation and red herring) rather than been actively cancelled. I know that someone said at inquest that it was cancelled but was it loose language or? this was one of those parts where I wished AC had probed deeper!

If it was deliberately cancelled by snail mail or phone legitimately then it still doesn't put MB back in Oz, but does imply that she is alive at that point. Although phone is difficult from UK due to time differences and Oz business hours, it is not impossible.

If it was cancelled by MB by in person then it is proof of life in Oz.

If it was cancelled by an imposter by snail mail, phone (more risky) or in person (more risky) then it was either done for financial gain (poor pickings) or planting proof of life.

Those are the options I can come with so far! but as I said with some other "clues" that have been interpreted, sometimes we have the tendency when we think that something nefarious has happened, that everything is a clue to fit into the jigsaw and maybe, just maybe the insurance policy has just lapsed on this date and is explained by the signing over of the car to SL - which we know as a fact. I am far more interested in whether the RACQ membership lapsed or was cancelled because this would not be connected with signing over the car to SL.

 

[BonnieB]

I have conflicting info on security envelopes. Can you help me clarify it? What info do you all have?

1 Oct 1997
RB pays $13 from joint account with DdH for safe custody envelope at Commonwealth Ballina, assumed size is A3 envelope which only RB can access (Bank Manager statement).

7 Oct 1997
RB cancels safe custody envelope at Commonwealth Ballina.

14 Oct 1997
Commonwealth document showing an automatic funds transfer (Podcast did not reveal from where and to who)

14 Oct 1997
New safety deposit box opened at CBA

27 Oct 1997
New safety deposit box closed at CBA

I have 14th & 27th October for security envelope and EFT? transfer on 15th October.

 

[gymtonic]

My comments are in bold

Thinking about timeline upon return to Aus… the RACV cancellation is unusual and might shed light on Marion’s final days.
For starters, cancelling her membership 5 days upon return to Aus is a weird thing to do.

If she returned alone to try to extract herself from RB and his con, RACV would’ve been the last thing on her mind.

If she was tying up loose ends to move overseas permanently, would she really yank the membership for the car Sally now used, without telling Sally? Let alone, not telling Sally she was permanently leaving? That’s also weird.

Perhaps Marion or RB received a letter for a bill (today it’s about $100 per month / $1000 per year) and that prompted them to cancel it? But where would the bill be sent? It couldn’t have been Leslie’s. And I doubt it was RB’s house.

IMO MB had told RB that she was having her mail redirected to Leslie Loveday so RB organised a post office redirection to his PO Box. However, was it RACQ membership and/or RACQ car insurance? How do we know it was actually cancelled or did it simply lapse? Yes denying Sally the benefit of having them does not make sense unless they lapsed.

It’s worth noting that if you pay upfront and you decide to cancel, it takes weeks to process but you get a refund.

The two most straightforward theories I can think of are:

1. RB went through Marion’s wallet to see if he could milk anything else out of her. Perhaps he wondered if he could transfer the membership to his new vehicle? But he couldn’t so he just took the refund. For reference, RACV was cancelled on Thur and the car purchased on Mon.

This theory would mean that RB already had control Marion’s wallet and therefore, possibly her bank cards (so he could start withdrawing her funds), and her Medicare to visit optometrist. Also worth noting: DdH wears glasses.

2. RACV and medicare were used simply to make it look as though Marion was still alive. It would look very suspicious if Marion returned from overseas ONLY to withdraw wads of cash and disappear never to be seen again. The activity definitely makes you consider that she really did return and might've withdrawn the money herself.

What are your thoughts?

IMO any activities which could be attributed to Marion after 2nd August were reported or done by RB via email or DdH in person or via phone call to prove that MB was still alive.

1. RACQ insurance and membership cancellation
2. Use of Medicare card in Grafton
3. Armidale death
4. Chapman's email to Sally
5. Bank staff's comments
and so on.

The only thing I would say (and I know I do keep returning to this relentlessly...sorry!), is that RACQ Membership and RACQ Car Insurance Policy are 2 separate things and the terms keep being used interchangeably and as if necessarily linked but you can have one without the other.

RACQ membership is a personal membership and you nominate whichever car/s you own as covered (or associate membership temporarily if no car) for road side services. You keep your membership number regardless of which car you own or nominate. This membership does not transfer from one person to another on sale of a car.

RACQ Car Insurance Policy is taken out on a particular nominated car. If you sold a car then you would either transfer the insurance to another car (with possible change in premiums) or take out a new policy or cancel it if not buying another car. In the context of MB signing the car over to SL, maybe MB said she would keep the existing policy going until SL took out a new policy and so it lapsed on that date. IMO SL could shed more light on this by remembering what happened with the car insurance and whether the car insurance was expected to last a lot longer than 7 August? (and so cancelling it on 7 August wold be significant)

EDIT: I am having trouble with the WS interface again and since realised that your comments were the ones in bold and my comment above is. More to do with one you quoted. Worth repeating anyway!

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Amsterdam and Bali? hmmm I thought at the time. Amsterdam to Sussex/Essex UK well known drug smuggling route. Bali? Shapelle Corby? Bali 9? pointless activities in both places? even more suspicious.

I think they flew to Amsterdam.. luggage left there then ferry to Hull

 

[Estelle]

The only thing I would say (and I know I do keep returning to this relentlessly...sorry!), is that RACQ Membership and RACQ Car Insurance Policy are 2 separate things and the terms keep being used interchangeably and as if necessarily linked but you can have one without the other.

RACQ membership is a personal membership and you nominate whichever car/s you own as covered (or associate membership temporarily if no car) for road side services. You keep your membership number regardless of which car you own or nominate. This membership does not transfer from one person to another on sale of a car.

RACQ Car Insurance Policy is taken out on a particular nominated car. If you sold a car then you would either transfer the insurance to another car (with possible change in premiums) or take out a new policy or cancel it if not buying another car. In the context of MB signing the car over to SL, maybe MB said she would keep the existing policy going until SL took out a new policy and so it lapsed on that date. IMO SL could shed more light on this by remembering what happened with the car insurance and whether the car insurance was expected to last a lot longer than 7 August? (and so cancelling it on 7 August wold be significant)

EDIT: I am having trouble with the WS interface again and since realised that your comments were the ones in bold and my comment above is. More to do with one you quoted. Worth repeating anyway!

Yes I wondered why you were saying that. I have mine with the NRMA - roadside assistance and car insurance. I agree that you would just let roadside assistance lapse and would cancel car insurance only if you had paid for the year and you could get a refund of three months or more.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Just found this in my notes:
Early 2019
Byron Bay branch manager at the time of Marion’s disappearance, passed away. Name never revealed.

 

[Estelle]

I think they flew to Amsterdam.. luggage left there then ferry to Hull

Don't you mean ferry to Harwich?

 

[KiwiNZ]

This makes sense. I found it weird in Jo’s testimony the stop over in Bali seemed pointless. As did the Amsterdam leg of the trip… nothing touristy seemed to be done in Bali nor Amsterdam.. seems strange to me going and not actually seeing or doing much. So it makes perfect sense that stopovers are required to switch identities before arriving in Europe. I suspect maybe the tickets are done in legs to. Eg. Australia - Bali one airline then Bali - Amsterdam different airline. If not the same passport would have to be used.

I think the even changing airlines you would be pulled by immigration on how you entered the country if it was not connected to that passport you were trying to depart on, I have been caught out on this myself, not with a different name but with a different passport, I have 2 a NZ one and a UK one, I entered Aus on my NZ one and tried to leave perth for the UK on my UK one, what a commotion that caused lol I couldn't I had to leave on my NZ one.

But in saying the above RB is much more "educated " in immigration processes than I am, he has spent his life doing this, if there is a loop hole he would find it

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I have 14th & 27th October for security envelope and EFT? transfer on 15th October.

I'm so sorry, I only see the transfer referenced as the 14th. In Ep: Man of Many Names (@31 mins) Sally definitely said 14th.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I've updated timeline, corrected some things and placed sources.

Safe custody envelope timeline
Thur 14 Oct 1997
FdH pays $13 from joint account to put something into a safe custody envelope at Commonwealth Bank Ballina, which only he can access. The most commonly used size is an A3 envelope (Ep: Inquest Part 8).

Commonwealth Bank document shows an ‘automatic funds transfer’ (Podcast did not reveal from where and to who. Ep: Man of Many Names)

Sally says that this is consistent with GC cops event (Byron police notes) that say $80k was electronically transferred to another account. Possibly overseas, to start a new life with her partner (Ep: Man of Many Names).

27 Oct 1997
RB cancels safe custody envelope at Commonwealth Ballina (Ep: Inquest Part 8).

27 July 1999
FdH pays $45 from joint account to make a safe custody lodgement at Commonwealth Bank Ballina. Size is likely a packable box, which only he can access (Ep: Inquest Part 8).

August 2000
FdH cancels the safe custody packable box (Ep: Inquest Part 8).

Sept 2005
FdH pays $285 from joint account to purchase a safe deposit box. It’s a secure draw in the vault at Commonwealth Bank in Sydney’s Martin Place branch, which only he can access (Ep: Inquest Part 8).

Dec 2007
FdH surrenders safe deposit box at Commonwealth Bank Sydney (Ep: Inquest Part 8).

 

[BonnieB]

I'm so sorry, I only see the transfer referenced as the 14th. In Ep: Man of Many Names (@31 mins) Sally definitely said 14th.

I will check again with Sally

 

[Roseberry]

I have 14th & 27th October for security envelope and EFT? transfer on 15th October.

Quick question sorry if it's been determined: What are the confirmed ways of making that EFT transfer of that amount ($80k) at that time? In-person only? Telephone?

 

[BonnieB]

Quick question sorry if it's been determined: What are the confirmed ways of making that EFT transfer of that amount ($80k) at that time? In-person only? Telephone?

Phone banking in Australia was introduced in the mid-1990's and if I remember correctly, the customer applied either in person or by phone and a tele-banking card was posted to the customer's address with the access and pin numbers. Of course, this might be different for each bank but that's how I remember it for St.George Bank.

 

[Roseberry]

Phone banking in Australia was introduced in the mid-1990's and if I remember correctly, the customer applied either in person or by phone and a tele-banking card was posted to the customer's address with the access and pin numbers. Of course, this might be different for each bank but that's how I remember it for St.George Bank.

Thanks, and we know that MB (or possibly someone purporting to be MB) was in phone contact with the bank at that time because there is record that there was a telephone conversation with bank staff (post-return). The EFT transfer was from a different bank (which as I understand, later merged with her bank), presumably with differing withdrawal conditions to the one that limited transactions, imposed fees, correct?

 

[BonnieB]

I'm so sorry, I only see the transfer referenced as the 14th. In Ep: Man of Many Names (@31 mins) Sally definitely said 14th.

The transfer was recorded at MB's Ashmore branch on 15th October; the day after RB opened the safety deposit envelope on 14th October. With so many dates to remember, I can understand the confusion.

 

[centred]

I have NRMA roadside assistance… but I also have NRMA policies.. for lots of things including the car.
Roadside assist is not referred to as a policy. A policy is your car or home insurance. So my understanding based on podcast is she had both Car insurance and Road side assist. Now unless the car was purchased and insured at the same time as road side assist.. the dates would be different.
Meaning I already had road side assist when I purchased a new car and took out insurance policy. My roadside assist transferred over from previous car (so the renewal date for that is different to my policy date)
Don’t know if that helps clarify anything. But for me personally they are 2 different dates. Roadside assist will automatically lapse at the end of 12 months if you don’t renew.

yes I am NSW too so NRMA ...renewing is always a good idea , otherwise that damn excessive fee to rejoin then pay for 12 months road assist or premium if traveling a lot

I think the only difference i found re QLD this time (2010 ) was it covered the person NOT just one vehicle rego , which I thought was a great idea ,yah QLD .

 

[gymtonic]

I'm so sorry, I only see the transfer referenced as the 14th. In Ep: Man of Many Names (@31 mins) Sally definitely said 14th.

I have only just recently re-listened to that and I agree although it was a bit confusing. My sense of it was that SL had spotted a document in amongst the bundle of evidence that was with Commonwealth Bank letterhead and was for an electronic bank transfer on 14 October 1997 possibly internally or to an overseas account. I am not sure how that relates to the 15 October 1997 $80,000 close of Ashmore Colonial State Bank activity. It's one of those loose ends for me.
Another one is the mysterious statement that I must have missed first time but picked up second time around re a bank transfer on 28 August in GC's (BBPolice) notes?

 

[gymtonic]

The transfer was recorded at MB's Ashmore branch on 15th October; the day after RB opened the safety deposit envelope on 14th October. With so many dates to remember, I can understand the confusion.

See my recent post on this I have the same notes as @Peralta with the podcast at least saying bank transfer on the 14 October 1997. I only listened to that episode again yesterday. I guess the inquest transcript would settle it?

 

[BonnieB]

Thanks, and we know that MB was in phone contact with the bank at that time because there is record that there was a telephone conversation with bank staff (post-return). The EFT transfer was from a different bank (which as I understand, later merged with her bank), presumably with differing withdrawal conditions to the one that limited transactions, imposed fees, correct?

I understand all this happened on the cusp of the Colonial State Bank merging with the Commonwealth Bank. (Couldn't have been at a worse time for records) MB banked with the smaller Colonial State Bank. I believe the last withdrawal was recorded at MB's branch at Ashmore QLD.