Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #11

[gymtonic]

OK a bit of a wild theory here so bear with me... is it possible that the Commonwealth Bank document that SL spotted in the bundle of evidence reporting with an electronic bank transfer on 14 October 1997 (as detailed in the podcast) is not actually connected with the 15 October 1997 $80,000 closure of Colonial State Bank at Ashmore, but is in fact a transfer from RB's Commonwealth Bank account and is the money from the earlier $95,000 withdrawn in $5,000 instalments and (supposition) deposited in his Commonwealth Bank account?
My reasoning is that we know MB's bank was the Colonial State Bank and that the merger with Commonwealth Bank was not until 2000. I can't see any evidence yet of MB having a Commonwealth Bank account in 1997, but RB did!

Go for it...tear holes in this!!

 

[Roseberry]

I understand all this happened on the cusp of the Colonial State Bank merging with the Commonwealth Bank. (Couldn't have been at a worse time for records) MB banked with the smaller Colonial State Bank. I believe the last withdrawal was recorded at MB's branch at Ashmore QLD.

So that last EFT T/F could have been made via phone.
And the police statement says they were looking for sightings of MB late August/early September? Not October?

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

With regards to the questions about the podcast at the inquest;

Day 1

AC - Have you listened to it at all?

DdeH - No

AC - Not at all?

DdeH - No, well I didn’t know about it

Day 2

DdeH - She did? I heard she’s a teacher, a teacher

AC - And did you hear that from your husband?

DdeH - Heard that from the podcast

Oops.

 

[BonnieB]

OK a bit of a wild theory here so bear with me... is it possible that the Commonwealth Bank document that SL spotted in the bundle of evidence reporting with an electronic bank transfer on 14 October 1997 (as detailed in the podcast) is not actually connected with the 15 October 1997 $80,000 closure of Colonial State Bank at Ashmore, but is in fact a transfer from RB's Commonwealth Bank account and is the money from the earlier $95,000 withdrawn in $5,000 instalments and (supposition) deposited in his Commonwealth Bank account?
My reasoning is that we know MB's bank was the Colonial State Bank and that the merger with Commonwealth Bank was not until 2000. I can't see any evidence yet of MB having a Commonwealth Bank account in 1997, but RB did!

Go for it...tear holes in this!!

IMO the reason the document was on a Commonwealth Bank letterhead was because by the time police investigated, the CSB was then the Commonwealth. I can't see RB ever converting cash into a traceable bank account transaction.

IMO further cash withdrawals became too risky after Marion met her end. IMO having to dispose of Marion's body was not something he expected or planned. I think that this explains the period of "laying low" for a few weeks in September during which time he devised a plan to empty the account (possibly by phone banking) on 15th October. The money probably went overseas before returning to a safe account back here to be withdrawn and placed in the safety deposit envelope at his Ballina branch. IMOO

 

[Deleted member 249471]

For all those keeping timelines, it's 2008 not 2002.

A while ago, someone brought up the old "2002 Crimestoppers tip that Marion was buried in Armidale, but how did they know about Marion as her disappearance wasn't public knowledge until 2006?"
Me and a few others couldn't back it up, but we knew it had been corrected by Sally.

Anyhow, I found my note:
2008
Crimestoppers call says a missing woman from northern NSW named Marion was killed and buried in bushland near Armidale. Originally quoted as 2002 but Sally clarified it was definitely 2008.

 

[Roseberry]

IMO the reason the document was on a Commonwealth Bank letterhead was because by the time police investigated, the CSB was then the Commonwealth. I can't see RB ever converting cash into a traceable bank account transaction.

IMO further cash withdrawals became too risky after Marion met her end. IMO having to dispose of Marion's body was not something he expected or planned. I think that this explains the period of "laying low" for a few weeks in September during which time he devised a plan to empty the account (possibly by phone banking) on 15th October. The money probably went overseas before returning to a safe account back here to be withdrawn and placed in the safety deposit envelope at his Ballina branch. IMOO

The sudden transactional hiatus and ultimate withdrawal does speak to a 'last ditch' attempt to extract funds. All of the extraneous "MB" non-fiscal transactions (Medicare and RACQ) are in the period prior to the final October transaction.

 

[gymtonic]

IMO the reason the document was on a Commonwealth Bank letterhead was because by the time police investigated, the CSB was then the Commonwealth. I can't see RB ever converting cash into a traceable bank account transaction.

Hmmm, yes good point about the potential date of the document being after the merger. It would be useful to know whether it is an original or a later report of the transaction.

I guess I am still also trying to get my head around why SL rang the Commonwealth Bank and was told that $5000 had come out of the Commonwealth Bank in Byron Bay and then went into the Commonwealth Bank at Byron Bay. All this was pre-merger of CSB with Commonwealth Bank in 2000! Why did SL not ring the Colonial State Bank if that was the only known account? What was it that lead to the connection with the Commonwealth Bank back in 1997 that initiated these inquiries to CommBank rather than CSB? My confusion is compounded by DM (Bank Manager of the Colonial State Bank at Ashmore in 1997, and later Commonwealth Bank after merger) and GS (CommBank) who both stated that MB had an account with CSB and (DM) that the Colonial State Bank at Ashmore was MB's local branch for her account, that he knew her well and would recognise her if she went to that branch, and that, at the time in 1997, there were CSB branches in Byron Bay and Burleigh Heads (Ref Ep.Inquest Part 1). so...

• Were the $5,000 daily transactions in Aug-Sept 1997 from MB's Colonial State Bank account but through the Commonwealth Bank at Byron Bay (and Burleigh)? or
• Were the $5,000 daily transactions in aug-Sept 1997 from the CSB branch at Byron (and Burleigh)? or
• Have the Commonwealth Bank and CSB been used interchangeably in testimony since because of the merger? and/or Commonwealth Bank letterhead appears as you suggest on any records since 2000 because CSB no longer exists but Commonwealth Bank does?

Thoughts?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

If anyone has good notes on all the postcards, (date postmarked, date arrived, area sent from) can you please post?

I think @Lord Peter Flimsy is pretty good at Marion's whereabouts in the UK

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Hmmm, yes good point about the potential date of the document being after the merger. It would be useful to know whether it is an original or a later report of the transaction.

I guess I am still also trying to get my head around why SL rang the Commonwealth Bank and was told that $5000 had come out of the Commonwealth Bank in Byron Bay and then went into the Commonwealth Bank at Byron Bay. All this was pre-merger of CSB with Commonwealth Bank in 2000! Why did SL not ring the Colonial State Bank if that was the only known account? What was it that lead to the connection with the Commonwealth Bank back in 1997 that initiated these inquiries to CommBank rather than CSB? My confusion is compounded by DM (Bank Manager of the Colonial State Bank at Ashmore in 1997, and later Commonwealth Bank after merger) and GS (CommBank) who both stated that MB had an account with CSB and (DM) that the Colonial State Bank at Ashmore was MB's local branch for her account, that he knew her well and would recognise her if she went to that branch, and that, at the time in 1997, there were CSB branches in Byron Bay and Burleigh Heads (Ref Ep.Inquest Part 1). so...

• Were the $5,000 daily transactions in Aug-Sept 1997 from MB's Colonial State Bank account but through the Commonwealth Bank at Byron Bay (and Burleigh)? or
• Were the $5,000 daily transactions in aug-Sept 1997 from the CSB branch at Byron (and Burleigh)? or
• Have the Commonwealth Bank and CSB been used interchangeably in testimony since because of the merger? and/or Commonwealth Bank letterhead appears as you suggest on any records since 2000 because CSB no longer exists but Commonwealth Bank letterhead?

Thoughts?

There is much speculation on whether Sally was confused and actually called and went to Colonial in Byron, not Commonwealth.

Sally has always been adamant it was Commonwealth as those were the bank details her mother gave her to place the car sale money in. Sally claims she didn't even know about Colonial until they informed her of the additional $80k withdrawal.

Also, Colonial do have records of the $80K, her mortgage discharge and CC being stolen. But not of the daily $5k withdrawals. To me, this means those happened at Commonwealth.

My theory is that before leaving for the UK, RB convinced Marion to transfer half of her money from Colonial Ashmore to Commonwealth Byron. Byron is out of the way so as not to be recognised, and it now becomes Marion's 'usual' branch for that account, hence fewer red flags with the daily withdrawals.

But why? Because he uses Commonwealth Bank, at it would be much easier to withdraw in cash and then deposit back in. Or move money around Commonwealth accounts or safe boxes. But also to create the problem we have now... we don't actually know how much money Marion had or how much he stole!

In my opinion, we were never supposed to find out about the daily $5k at Commonwealth Byron. This was supposed to be kept secret forever, possibly even with help from bank and police.

I think RB purposefully left the $80k at Colonial then withdrew it in a lump sum at the very end of his con, as that was the account police would look into once she was reported missing, and it was supposed to make it appear as though Marion willingly took her money and ran.

It's my belief that when Sally accidentally found out about Commonwealth Byron, she was heavily gaslighted about it to the point that 25 years later, we're still questioning it.

I don't feel it's a coincidence that Sally asked GC from Byron to investigate "daily $5k withdrawals from Commonwealth Byron" BUT he instead came back with "$80k electronically transferred from Colonial Ashmore, possibly overseas, to start a new life with her partner". And then lost Marion's file, and now claims he had no idea at the time that Marion was overseas or changed her name.

Just a theory.

 

[gymtonic]

If anyone has good notes on all the postcards, (date postmarked, date arrived, area sent from) can you please post?

I think @Lord Peter Flimsy is pretty good at Marion's whereabouts in the UK

I have this, but can't swear to all of it:

 

[Roseberry]

For all those keeping timelines, it's 2008 not 2002.

A while ago, someone brought up the old "2002 Crimestoppers tip that Marion was buried in Armidale, but how did they know about Marion as her disappearance wasn't public knowledge until 2006?"
Me and a few others couldn't back it up, but we knew it had been corrected by Sally.

Anyhow, I found my note:
2008
Crimestoppers call says a missing woman from northern NSW named Marion was killed and buried in bushland near Armidale. Originally quoted as 2002 but Sally clarified it was definitely 2008.

Yes, lets look at Armidale. It seems very precise and specific as to the location. The problem with such precision is that is it speaks to the following:

1. A witness, who was also an accomplice, who suddenly had some kind of death-wish and decided to speak up;

2. A witness, who was not an accomplice, who happened upon something that would take at least 1-2 hours to accomplish in a fairly public place, with or without assistants, with car access, who looked the other way at the time, then decided to speak up.

3. An accomplice, who may or may not have been a witness, who was persuaded to divert via phone call to Crimestoppers.

4. A random troll.

For 1 and 2 , look at Armidale. For 3. look at any other place other than Armidale. Just IMO

 

[gymtonic]

There is much speculation on whether Sally was confused and actually called and went to Colonial in Byron, not Commonwealth.

Sally has always been adamant it was the Commonwealth as those were the bank details her mother gave her to place the car sale money in. Sally claims she didn't even know about Colonial until the investigation was well under way and they informed her of the additional $80k withdrawal.

My theory is that before leaving for the UK, RB convinced Marion to transfer half of her money from Colonial to Commonwealth. He may have even convinced her to open it in Byron, hence Byron may be the 'usual' branch for that account, hence fewer red flags with the daily withdrawals.

But why? Because he uses Commonwealth Bank, at it would be much easier to withdraw and then deposit back in. Or move money around Commonwealth accounts or safe boxes. Just a theory.

Yes, that is what I have been wondering and it makes the only other sense of it (unless SL is confused), but then as the other poster pointed out, that would be more traceable to RB? I actually think your theory here also makes sense if as I said RB was putting the $5000 cash straight into his account and then the 14 October 1997 electronic transfer is from his account?
My head is starting to explode with this complexity so I'm not even sure what I am saying has any internal logic anymore...will go back to it another day!!

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Yes, lets look at Armidale. It seems very precise and specific as to the location. The problem with such precision is that is it speaks to the following:

1. A witness, who was also an accomplice, who suddenly had some kind of death-wish and decided to speak up;

2. A witness, who was not an accomplice, who happened upon something that would take at least 1-2 hours to accomplish in a fairly public place, with or without assistants, with car access, who looked the other way at the time, then decided to speak up.

3. An accomplice, who may or may not have been a witness, who was persuaded to divert via phone call to Crimestoppers.

4. A random troll.

For 1 and 2 , look at Armidale. For 3. look at any other place other than Armidale. Just IMO

It's true that the majority of tips are rubbish by well-meaning but over-imaginative people.

Another common theory is that is was a different Marion who was also missing at the time. Not that it makes a difference but Marion Barter was from southern Queensland not Northern NSW when she disappeared.

The good news is that the podcast said the new police on case are reinvestigating all former leads, including this one

 

[Jay_Tec]

My comments are in bold

IMO any activities which could be attributed to Marion after 2nd August were reported or done by RB via email or DdH in person or via phone call to prove that MB was still alive.

1. RACQ insurance and membership cancellation
2. Use of Medicare card in Grafton
3. Armidale death
4. Chapman's email to Sally
5. Bank staff's comments
and so on.

This is what I think too.

I don't think the Wonka's would have attempted to transfer Marion's policy across to them or a new vehicle as that makes a direct link.

They were shutting down Marion's life on paper. Use of the Medicare card seems to be super high risk and petty if only for obtaining some glasses or such.
So, maybe that was all part of impersonating Marion.

If they were impersonating Marion maybe they wanted to buy the car in her name, transfer her driver assist / insurance policy on to it, but something went wrong during the phone call to the RACQ?

Possibly the call handler started asking details of Marion's previous car - Wonkas would have assumed it's been sold by Sally. In fact it had been transferred into Sally's ownership. Maybe that blip resulted in an awkward conversation that alerted the call handler to something doesn't flow right here. Maybe 'fake Marion' felt put on the spot and said something like "oh I'm so annoyed with my daughter she was supposed to have sold the car, not kept it, oh... you know what, just cancel the whole policy"

 

[Jay_Tec]

I think I wrote this a bit loosely because I am still leaning towards a (IMO) view that it has just lapsed on that date due to MB signing over the car to SL and leaving it place to cover the car in the interim (in other words an innocent explanation and red herring) rather than been actively cancelled. I know that someone said at inquest that it was cancelled but was it loose language or? this was one of those parts where I wished AC had probed deeper!

If it was deliberately cancelled by snail mail or phone legitimately then it still doesn't put MB back in Oz, but does imply that she is alive at that point. Although phone is difficult from UK due to time differences and Oz business hours, it is not impossible.

If it was cancelled by MB by in person then it is proof of life in Oz.

If it was cancelled by an imposter by snail mail, phone (more risky) or in person (more risky) then it was either done for financial gain (poor pickings) or planting proof of life.

Those are the options I can come with so far! but as I said with some other "clues" that have been interpreted, sometimes we have the tendency when we think that something nefarious has happened, that everything is a clue to fit into the jigsaw and maybe, just maybe the insurance policy has just lapsed on this date and is explained by the signing over of the car to SL - which we know as a fact. I am far more interested in whether the RACQ membership lapsed or was cancelled because this would not be connected with signing over the car to SL.

I guess Marion was a person to do things by the book - including the proposed sale of her car.

I have never been a driver or car owner and don't live in Aus. Please could someone advise, were Marion to do this leaving the car to Sally to sell strictly by the book, what would that involve ?

At the time, she wasn't aware SL was going to keep the car and sell her own, IIRC?

So, certainly she may have notified RACQ in advance that the car is being sold and therefore to cancel the roadside assistance and accident claims part of the policy, as she wouldn't have wanted some random who purchased the car driving it around still covered by her policy ? (even tho it probably doesn't work like that).

Usually, when cancelling coverage, it would end / time out at the end of the monthly payment date - or - back in those days 4 weeks notice was common cancellation period.

Quite why the WHOLE policy including lifetime benefits or annual accrued bonuses and other matters not relating to an actual vehicle would be cancelled is baffling.

 

[Jay_Tec]

This makes sense. I found it weird in Jo’s testimony the stop over in Bali seemed pointless. As did the Amsterdam leg of the trip… nothing touristy seemed to be done in Bali nor Amsterdam.. seems strange to me going and not actually seeing or doing much. So it makes perfect sense that stopovers are required to switch identities before arriving in Europe. I suspect maybe the tickets are done in legs to. Eg. Australia - Bali one airline then Bali - Amsterdam different airline. If not the same passport would have to be used.

I wonder if more and more thoughts and realisations are cropping up for JO ?

I once did a thing called forensic memory scaffolding (on myself for the purpose of auto biographical writing) and it's incredible that one can actually recall EVERYTHING given the correct time, space, prompting and tools that evoke and re awaken memories and 'forgotten' information.

 

[Jay_Tec]

Amsterdam and Bali? hmmm I thought at the time. Amsterdam to Sussex/Essex UK well known drug smuggling route. Bali? Shapelle Corby? Bali 9? pointless activities in both places? even more suspicious.

Amsterdam being so close to the UK that it's certainly a pointless stop over in terms of travel if one is trying to break up the journey. So it must be for a purpose!?

 

[Roseberry]

I wonder if more and more thoughts and realisations are cropping up for JO ?

I once did a thing called forensic memory scaffolding (on myself for the purpose of auto biographical writing) and it's incredible that one can actually recall EVERYTHING given the correct time, space, prompting and tools that evoke and re awaken memories and 'forgotten' information.

What for? IMO JO testimony told all.

 

[Laughing]

I SO enjoy reading what you all are discovering here!

Sally & Marion (and JO, and all the others who lost money, property, and self-esteem to this scammer) have champions, indeed.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Not Marion.

FOUND: Police confirm missing woman has been located

I was searching for anything related to a Marion missing who could have been the Marion in Armidale and came up with a story about a woman who went missing for 2 years.

Was found but denied she was the person and then spent time in hospital. She was treated for dissociative identity amnesia.
Then it seems years later she disappeared again but was found within 24 hours this time.

Not Marion related, but more about the condition.

I don't believe this is what happened to Marion, though I might have entertained the idea until the info that came out at the inquest.