Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #11

[Estelle]

Oh my goodness!! I attempted to read the info on this website, but the grammar, sentence structure and linguistics are like Chinese Washing Machine instructions! The head office is supposedly in Los Angeles but more likely "Nigeria"!

There are many online companies doing them.

 

[Liselle]

Here’s some more info on passports.. that adds to the confusion of IK and baby passport numbers.

it wasn’t until 1986 that children could no longer be on parents passport and had to have their own.

So baby IK would have to have been on mother or fathers passport.

Baby IK passport starts with letter G

In 1964, 'G' series passport introduced, with the St Edward's Crown at the top of the cover, the word 'Australia' followed by the Australian Coat of Arms, and the words 'British Passport' at the bottom.

Australian passport - Wikipedia

The evolution of the Australian passport

Because it starts with letter G… would this mean it is an Australian Passport?????? Thoughts??

Did WW fly out on the same number passport as arriving? Has anybody checked his numbers?

EDIT @mishy66 do you have his departure card on hand?

@Eyespywithmylittleeye Is this the WW 1970 departure card you were wanting? Note, he has put 1969 as the date which has been corrected with a different coloured pen! Maybe to cause more confusion/dishonesty?

 

[KiwiNZ]

I recall Wonka saying that IK ran away to Melbourne. There was a Josephine Novotny b:1896 Csejte, Hungary living in Melbourne. Don't know if she was connected on IK's mother's side.

he used a lot of word soup around that - he said she ran off to Melbourne 2 months after they arrived in Australia (May 1969), but then he said she had the baby in Sydney (Jan 1970) and was living in Bondi and IK took the baby to the airport to see him off when he left Aus to go back to Europe - (15th Feb – 1970)

No word of her coming from Melbourne or a new partner / husband

 

[Estelle]

It's so confusing isn't it!
But I keep going back to the fact that baby EJ who grew up and started her own business USED the name I. Wouters initially... why use that name IF they (the parents) didnt marry...... and we dont actually have any documentation about marriage to MJR ...ONLY what is written on Ilonas death cert.

There's a note that MJR visited IK in hospital. That's all. It doesn't say he was the husband IMO.

 

[Estelle]

I'd guess she had to apply for a new passport to use her married name and because she assumed his nationality upon marriage, the new passport would be Belgian.

Wouldn't she also have had an Australian passport?

 

[Estelle]

Yep exactly.
I am more refering to the possibility that wouters DID marry Ilona and the possibility of him already having a stolen identity of a MJR to use in Aust IF needed....

Couldn't RB have returned to Australia using a MJR passport in 1974/5 as AU authorities don't have a record of his returning?

 

[KiwiNZ]

Could the date/s be incorrect? The problem is that these cards are never checked by authorities at the time to make sure they're correct. You can virtually put anything on them IMO.

The flights are different and also, a possible insignificant observation lol, the cards are from different print stock, at first I thought it may be because print stocks were used by different airports ( and possibly RB stock piling them lol) , but then I realized that's not the case, but having worked in high volume printing for government I think it would at least indicate the card was given out by a different airlines some having old stock and some with new. The cards were not take one after another as you would expect if you were travelling together

personally I think they went on different days and flights but have no clue why

 

[Estelle]

The flights are different and also, a possible insignificant observation lol, the cards are from different print stock, at first I thought it may be because print stocks were used by different airports ( and possibly RB stock piling them lol) , but then I realized that's not the case, but having worked in high volume printing for government I think it would at least indicate the card was given out by a different airlines some having old stock and some with new. The cards were not take one after another as you would expect if you were travelling together

personally I think they went on different days and flights but have no clue why

But in those days, both parents had to sign to give permission for a baby to go overseas and the baby was listed on the mother's passport. IMO

 

[KiwiNZ]

But in those days, both parents had to sign to give permission for a baby to go overseas and the baby was listed on the mother's passport. IMO

agree that is why I cant understand why there is a different passport number for the child ? could it be RB's passport ? but I don't see him travelling with a screaming baby

 

[Roseberry]

The flights are different and also, a possible insignificant observation lol, the cards are from different print stock, at first I thought it may be because print stocks were used by different airports ( and possibly RB stock piling them lol) , but then I realized that's not the case, but having worked in high volume printing for government I think it would at least indicate the card was given out by a different airlines some having old stock and some with new. The cards were not take one after another as you would expect if you were travelling together

personally I think they went on different days and flights but have no clue why

.......the cards are from different print stock...... I think it would at least indicate the card was given out by a different airlines some having old stock and some with new...... or, if you were in the 'publishing' business, you could just print your own.....

 

[MrsWattle]

Could IK and baby have flown together and the passenger cards are for first leg and second leg of flight... in those days there weren't any direct flights? Wonky must have filled it out for her? she signed it.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

@Eyespywithmylittleeye Is this the WW 1970 departure card you were wanting? Note, he has put 1969 as the date which has been corrected with a different coloured pen! Maybe to cause more confusion/dishonesty?

Thank you!!!

 

[KiwiNZ]

.......the cards are from different print stock...... I think it would at least indicate the card was given out by a different airlines some having old stock and some with new...... or, if you were in the 'publishing' business, you could just print your own.....

I see what your saying but, the 2 different printers are used by the government, they both look legit.

But for me if you took or were handed 2 cards at the same time it is highly unlikely they come from 2 different print stocks ,Just an observation and IMO

I don't think they travelled together, but I have gone crossed eyed looking for the person she travelled with lol I have checked Novotny, Kinczel, Reid, Mestdagh, David, Wouters - nothing lol

the X is like when someone shows you were to sign after they have completed the form, you don't put and X before you sign, so I think someone filled it out and asked her to sign it

 

[KiwiNZ]

Could IK and baby have flown together and the passenger cards are for first leg and second leg of flight... in those days there weren't any direct flights? Wonky must have filled it out for her? she signed it.

I don't think he was in the country, I think he left 15th Feb – 1970 – Sydney

and next returned on the Chusan March 1971 ?

But could be wrong

 

[centred]

I'd guess she had to apply for a new passport to use her married name and because she assumed his nationality upon marriage, the new passport would be Belgian.

If this is the case , how does this scenario play out in regards to MB after her so called marriage to a Remekel from Luxembourg ?

@mishy66 well done with your interesting skills to drill down on details ...but what on earth happened to Desiree Wouters ?

 

[Roseberry]

I see what your saying but, the 2 different printers are used by the government, they both look legit.

But for me if you took or were handed 2 cards at the same time it is highly unlikely they come from 2 different print stocks ,Just an observation and IMO

I don't think they travelled together, but I have gone crossed eyed looking for the person she travelled with lol I have checked Novotny, Kinczel, Reid, Mestdagh, David, Wouters - nothing lol

the X is like when someone shows you were to sign after they have completed the form, you don't put and X before you sign, so I think someone filled it out and asked her to sign it

View attachment 338029

Of course, they should look legit - it's the family business!

On the scale of easy to hard things to forge, if passports and deeds were at the hard end, I'd put arrival cards way back at the easy end. I'm not saying it is, but this, and fooling around with passports, are things you have add to the mix.

It might be easier to consider what they're trying to do, and work back - what the whole purpose is and what might be at stake - sale of passports, immigration.....

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

So to me when I look at passports.

WW in and out on same passport. 79 number

IK in passport with the ‘IR’ letters IMO is a Hungarian passport… (card also says she spent last 12 months in Hungary) which is weird because we know she was in Belgium.

Ik out passport travelling as IW (also starts 79) so I think that may be a Belgian passport in Married name… perhaps that passport WAS obtained in Belgium prior to leaving and that may have been the reason she delayed departing for OZ to obtain Belgian passport in married name.

Baby wouters - appears to be an Australian passport.

 

[centred]

@Eyespywithmylittleeye Is this the WW 1970 departure card you were wanting? Note, he has put 1969 as the date which has been corrected with a different coloured pen! Maybe to cause more confusion/dishonesty?

she is travelling on a different passport to that she entered on, does anyone know how to find the countries passport by the number ?

View attachment 337999

I think "he " filled out both of these , have a look at the 9 with the distinctive tail and the other noticeable similarities IMO

 

[KiwiNZ]

Of course, they should look legit - it's the family business!

On the scale of easy to hard things to forge, if passports and and deeds were at the hard end, I'd put arrival cards way back at the easy end. I'm not saying it is, but this, and fooling around with passports, are things you have to the mix.

It might be easier to consider what they're trying to do, and work back - what the whole purpose is and what might be at stake - sale of passports, immigration.....

sorry no clue why you would print departure cards when they are freely available at the airport for anyone to get and the cost to print is not cheap.

I personally don't doubt the validity to these 2 departure cards but that's just me, the only thing I am questioning is why they would travel separately and the fact that they are from 2 print runs only backs up my thinking that they did leave separately ( as well as 2 different flight )

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I'd guess she had to apply for a new passport to use her married name and because she assumed his nationality upon marriage, the new passport would be Belgian.

Agree and that was possible then.
As of 1985 that law changed and marriage no longer entitled you to getting a Belgian nationality.