Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #11

[MrsWattle]

This address is connected to the Reid/Weightman family.
The Port Reeve's House

Family travelled extensively,
Hugh Ronald Reid U.N. with Melbourne connection.

There just doesn't seem to be enough time to get a divorce from Wouters in Budapest but who knows how they operated. I haven't found a divorce certificate.
If Ilona married Michael John Reid in Hungary maybe some other U.N. officials were there at the wedding or maybe it was rushed through? I don't think a marriage certificate has been found.
Were they connected to Claire de Hedervary U.N. hence all the redacted info ? She also worked in Japan.

These old newspaper clippings are interesting, my brain has broken down can anyone work out what the letters mean.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I could have missed it long ago when looking through IK files but when the NAA files were updated last week on this case, I noticed IK had an extra medical form in it - stating heart - normal.
Session expired | RecordSearch | National Archives of Australia

Amazing the stuff you can find in the Australian archives. And yet she dies of an apparent heart attack less than a decade later whilst sitting in her car? Strange.

 

[MrsWattle]

Just reposting up the passenger cards for babyWouters and IK as per link previously
The baby card is not IK handwriting and the baby just can not possibly be flying by herself!

WHO is with her.

According to Qantas at Sydney airport There is a lot of paperwork involved for a baby to travel without the mother. A four month old baby !!
It's definitely a strange one!

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Until now, I don't think any evidence has been presented that WW had fake passports in any name, so maybe more to come in the next part of the inquest. I can't find it in my notes, but I thought the stolen Remakel ID was an International driving license, from which WW was able to get an Aus license. Not sure whether an Intl driving license would be official ID for an EU passport application.

Probably not, but perhaps a QLD licence…and a few other things may

 

[Jay_Tec]

This address is connected to the Reid/Weightman family.
The Port Reeve's House

Family travelled extensively,
Hugh Ronald Reid U.N. with Melbourne connection.

There just doesn't seem to be enough time to get a divorce from Wouters in Budapest but who knows how they operated. I haven't found a divorce certificate.
If Ilona married Michael John Reid in Hungary maybe some other U.N. officials were there at the wedding or maybe it was rushed through? I don't think a marriage certificate has been found.
Were they connected to Claire de Hedervary U.N. hence all the redacted info ? She also worked in Japan.

These old newspaper clippings are interesting, my brain has broken down can anyone work out what the letters mean.

RANVR = Royal Australian Naval Voluntary Reserves
WAAF = Women's Auxiliary Air Force

 

[Jay_Tec]

According to Qantas at Sydney airport There is a lot of paperwork involved for a baby to travel without the mother. A four month old baby !!
It's definitely a strange one!

Unless the baby was being taken by a relative / carer / the state authorities due to some type of crisis ?

The sort of thing that would have involved much bureaucracy and family court type orders ? That would be kept from the public maybe ?

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

This address is connected to the Reid/Weightman family.
The Port Reeve's House

Family travelled extensively,
Hugh Ronald Reid U.N. with Melbourne connection.

There just doesn't seem to be enough time to get a divorce from Wouters in Budapest but who knows how they operated. I haven't found a divorce certificate.
If Ilona married Michael John Reid in Hungary maybe some other U.N. officials were there at the wedding or maybe it was rushed through? I don't think a marriage certificate has been found.
Were they connected to Claire de Hedervary U.N. hence all the redacted info ? She also worked in Japan.

These old newspaper clippings are interesting, my brain has broken down can anyone work out what the letters mean.

RANVR - Royal Australian Navy Volunteer Reserve…

Edit: oops @Jay_Tec has already replied

 

[Meligator]

Interesting that Ilona would be leaving on a wouters passport…. Considering she was here for a short time. But long enough to have a baby… and it appears long enough for her job skill to move from Domestic in her arrivals card to Hairdresser by the time she departed?

edit: Also her nationality changed from Hungarian when arriving to Belgian when leaving.

would she have a routers passport to travel on? Arrived on IK… left on IW?

It’s also noted in her file that she did know any English. She could have been depending on someone to help her translate the questions and so it’s possible there were just errors in translation—& her understanding of the question.

She also might have had dual citizen ship (Hungary & Belgium)? & two passports.

 

[Meligator]

Article on 17/04/1963

Three Dead In Overtaking Accident

......in the second car, the driver, M. Freddy David, was also killed instantly following a fracture of the cervical spine........

but that's just my translation - French-speaking sleuths step up!

Could the 1963 FD be a different person? Seems like the age is a bit off (24 years) and home not Tournai?

 

[Carovb5]

Article on 17/04/1963

Three Dead In Overtaking Accident

......in the second car, the driver, M. Freddy David, was also killed instantly following a fracture of the cervical spine........

but that's just my translation - French-speaking sleuths step up!

In Mons ('Bergen' in Dutch/Flemish)

Three dead during accident while passing.


Monday, at 22u50, on the middle path of the boulevard Albert-Elisabeth in Mons, the car, driven by Claude Picron, cattle dealer, 23 years old, of Wadelincourt, wanted to pass by/overtake a French car, driven by mister Paul Lecat of Lesquain (North) and collided with a car who came from the opposite direction, which was driven by Freddy David, 24 years old, employee, of Calvairestreet 24, Wasmuel.


The shock was extremely violent. Claude Picron seriously injured at his right knee, was transported to hospital Saint-Georges in Mons.
His fiancé, Nicole Welvart, 20 years old, of Ville-Pommeroeul, died instantly.

In the second car, the driver Freddy David, also died instantly, due to a spine fracture, while one of his passengers, Gerard Legat, waiter in a restaurant, 24 years old, of madamestreet in Wasmuel, died of his injuries while being transported to hospital Saint-Georges. He was stuck underneath the car and the firemen had to use a jack to get him out.

The third passenger of the car, Jean-Pierre Descamp, employee, 22 years old, of Monsstreet in Wasmuel, was transported to hospital Saint-Georges in critical condition.

The French car, which was doubled (?) got thrown against Mr. Picron's car, but its occupants escaped unscathed.


(French isn't my first language, so i translate it to Dutch & then the Dutch to English (to make sure everything is correct), so sorry if some sentences sound a bit off )

 

[Jay_Tec]

Freddy David died instantly of a broken neck basically.

Is it possible RB just took the identity of a dead young man as fraudsters are wont to do?

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I know in some earlier posts that it was surmised that Mr aka’s leg injuries were sustained in a road traffic accident and nothing to do with being dragged by a horse. Knowing as we do that he arrived in Australia in 1971 as FD are we saying above this case involves 2 separate RTAs?

 

[KiwiNZ]

the two signatures of 'IK" do we think these are written by the same person ?

I think it is and the X is added by another person to indicate she needs to sign here

1. IK outgoing on 10 May
2. Baby outgoing 8 May

I am in the Marion came back camp ( but could change my mind lol) - however if we think these signatures are written by the same person - is this an old trick of RB's in getting people to sign passenger cards pre-departure ?

Or the other option is that the cards are handed out when you check in, she has signed it before handing the baby over and them going through customs.

 

[Meligator]

the two signatures of 'IK" do we think these are written by the same person ?

1. IK outgoing on 10 May
2. Baby outgoing 18 May

I am in the Marion came back camp ( but could change my mind lol) - however if we think these signatures are written by the same person - is this an old trick of RB's in getting people to sign passenger cards pre-departure ?

View attachment 337974

Probably nothing, but signature looks like Kinczel, yet she’s traveling as Wouters. Wouldn’t you sign in the name you are using?

 

[Meligator]

Maybe IK & RB marriage was one of mutual convenience. He could get a visa/residency in AU—which may have been otherwise difficult given his legal history. IK could get Belgian citizenship through her marriage to RB (perhaps—I’m not sure of the rules). IK’s NAA notes say she traveled back to Hungary for 2 months in 1967 & 1 week in 1968. Maybe MJR was Hungarian (just a theory) and her having Belgian citizenship would allow allow MJR Belgian citizenship through marriage to IK.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Probably nothing, but signature looks like Kinczel, yet she’s traveling as Wouters. Wouldn’t you sign in the name you are using?

I agree that is really strange

 

[Carovb5]

I agree that is really strange

I wouldn’t be suprised if he worked with blank flightcards, like blanc checks. Making his ladies sign blanc versions and him filling it out when and where needed.

 

[mishy66]

This address is connected to the Reid/Weightman family.
The Port Reeve's House

Family travelled extensively,
Hugh Ronald Reid U.N. with Melbourne connection.

There just doesn't seem to be enough time to get a divorce from Wouters in Budapest but who knows how they operated. I haven't found a divorce certificate.
If Ilona married Michael John Reid in Hungary maybe some other U.N. officials were there at the wedding or maybe it was rushed through? I don't think a marriage certificate has been found.
Were they connected to Claire de Hedervary U.N. hence all the redacted info ? She also worked in Japan.

These old newspaper clippings are interesting, my brain has broken down can anyone work out what the letters mean.

Great find that clipping @MrsWattle
Is there a link to those clippings??


""There just doesn't seem to be enough time to get a divorce from Wouters in Budapest"" .....
no time for a marriage let alone a divorce! If you go back and have a look at my timeline on that it wasn't even 24 hours.

There has been no marriage cert found.

I don't think she did marry Michael John Reid in Hungry. I think she married Wouters - thinking he was the man of her dreams ( NIGHTMARE more like it)

She arrives in Australia and had the baby - it probably wasn't in his plans for that to happen!

We only have dates based on her death cert with the name MJR coming into the picture.

I think it has been presumed MJR and IK met overseas.

OR

Maybe he is WW under another alias (MJR) in case he needed it coming into Aust as I posted earlier .


BUT we do have an ABN linked to her daughter who shows at the start of her business she used the name IK -
This is the SAME name on "her" departure card - named after her mother - Ilona EJ Wouters.
So my thinking is this is her REAL name given to her by her mother ( very common to name babies after parents / family members back then) and she just uses her middle name - hence the change ( it was only a month or so before she changed it so probably thought she had to use her OFFICIAL name at the time and then found she could use the name she is known by -).



""Were they connected to Claire de Hedervary U.N. hence all the redacted info ? She also worked in Japan.""

He certainly was connected - IMO!

 

[mishy66]

Could the 1963 FD be a different person? Seems like the age is a bit off (24 years) and home not Tournai?

Freddy David died instantly of a broken neck basically.

Is it possible RB just took the identity of a dead young man as fraudsters are wont to do?

1942 Freddy David (brother of Wonka) - ( this is the same year wonka says he goes into orphanage)

1963 Freddy David Dies in car crash - paper states he is 24 - looking at birthdate it would make FD 21 - we are only going on a paper statement for age. It isn't too far off to expect a discrepancy of age IMO
(In the second car, the driver Freddy David, also died instantly, due to a spine fracture, while one of his passengers, Gerard Legat, waiter in a restaurant ) 30 min drive from Tournai to Wasmuel - reading the report and the time they look to have been working together as waiters?


1968 Feb15 - “Freddy David “ ( aged 26) - Merchant - Convicted conman – 12 mths prison for 11 fraudulent activities – damages awarded to parties totaled 31 000 francs

1968 – ""WW Recuperating from disabling injuries""" , so he says.......

 

[mishy66]

Probably nothing, but signature looks like Kinczel, yet she’s traveling as Wouters. Wouldn’t you sign in the name you are using?

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!