Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #15

[Getro callum]

He lived all over the place and no doubt knew other dodgy people to help with certain things wherever he travelled. I believe he could have managed

Except for never using Japan Airlines again. Even though he got "discounted airfares"
That's a tell in my mind.

Do you think he was banned? Possibly caught using fraudulent documents?

 

[mishy66]

Unfortunately RBs downfall/conviction could only be via Diane. Her whole life of influence and control by him will make this almost impossible for her to acknowledge/accept.

The children will never aid authorities. They have too much to loose. Reputation is everything in the age of social media.

100%
Also they are living with their daughter

Makes for an interesting nest no?

 

[Getro callum]

100%
Also they are living with their daughter

Makes for an interesting nest no?

What?? W.o.w!

 

[Getro callum]

What?? W.o.w!

Unfortunately for Sally & all the other victims family is always protected. Even when you know deep down they are full of s***t and more than likely responsible.

 

[gymtonic]

This case boils down to two stories that happened at the exact same time:

1. Marion’s passport returned to Australia. The passenger cards are in Marion’s handwriting. It suggests she returned and went missing in Australia.

2. Marion said she was calling from England and soon going to Amsterdam. Gifts and postcards in Marion’s handwriting continued arriving. It suggests she did NOT return but went missing in Europe.

They can’t both be true. One of these is fake. One of these was not Marion.

To me it’s clear that either way, the perpetrator used assistance. Either way, he couldn’t have done it alone.

We also know RB is a professional at forgery, bypassing immigration laws, and has a history of leaving women in one country while disappearing overseas with their money.

This means #2 is more likely and #1 is the fake.

However, there is no actual evidence of an accomplice now, or in the past.

But no evidence doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

Yet the Crown can only use evidence and need to connect the dots in the most straightforward and direct manner.

They’ve chosen to give passenger cards and passport records more weight than phone call and postcards.

It doesn’t mean it’s the truth or full story. Casselden’s personal hunch may be the opposite but they have to put forward the most obvious and evident explanation and seeing as there’s no hard evidence of an accomplice, they have to go with Marion returning and dismissing the phone and postcards as delays and mishaps.

My opinion only.

@Peralta you’ve NAILED IT IMO! MIC drop…

 

[gymtonic]

I’m not certain I understand all of it, but I think this is the gist of Casselden’s case:

RB was trying to deceive Marion for financial gain (which is a crime) and his long history, plus JO & GGB’s experiences with RB, are evidence of it. He suggests RB spent time with Marion in the UK and the proof is the Narita notepaper.

However, he suggests Marion returned, willingly withdrew her own money, there’s no evidence RB forced her to do it, and it’s not known when or how she died, but she is most likely deceased now, due to leaving money untouched and not accessing superannuation.

If the Coroner agrees with everything Casselden says, then there’s no dots connecting RB with Marion’s death and RB with Marion’s money.

And because of that lack of connection between RB and her money, I’m not sure they can even pursue a criminal investigation for the ‘deceiving for financial gain’.

If the Coroner ends up saying Marion is likely deceased AND there IS a link between Marion’s money and RB, then one could argue that her money was motivation for her death. That would be a substantial reason to pursue criminal charges BUT I don’t know that there’s enough evidence for that.

Sometimes the Coroner says the Findings are ‘inconclusive’ but makes a point of naming a specific person as someone who was likely involved or likely responsible. That doesn’t necessarily get followed up with any charges, unfortunately.

Separately to all that, the Coroner will likely have a few words and recommendations to give police for their conduct during the early years of investigation. As missing person protocols have improved since then, I doubt her words to police will have any meaningful outcome. Although Sally might be able to pursue legal action.

If I had to guess next steps, then I’d say it’s worth JO, GGB, Ghislaine, and every other victim to come forward to press charges so that he has to go to trial for ‘deceiving for financial gain’ because there is a lot of evidence for it, and maybe in that process, investigators can discover more about other victims, his process, murder and Marion.

I fully expect ASIC, ATO, Centrelink and Immigration to investigate and take him to court as well. So there may be more secrets uncovered there.

I sadly don’t think Marion will get any justice from the Inquest, but at least it’ll be on record that she’s deceased, and Sally can pursue more avenues.

As for RB, I 100% think this is the tip of the iceberg and just the beginning of his downfall.

He’ll spend the rest of his days in court now. I hope he lives to 100. Anything less is not fair to his victims.

My opinion only. And it may change in 5 minutes I sometimes get things very right. And also get things very wrong.

*I don’t know what you mean by ‘future behaviour to support their argument’

Nailed it again! IMO

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Do you think he was banned? Possibly caught using fraudulent documents?

No, I think something happened to Marion and he was trying to distance himself.

 

[Getro callum]

@Peralta you’ve NAILED IT IMO! MIC drop…

But doesn’t it seem possible she returned to access her money? The immigration card stated she was to be in Australia 3 days.. RB could have bought her a ticket simply to get the rest of the money.. it’s quite hard moving large amounts of money with different ids/ that may have old addresses etc

Something may have gone wrong after that time..the Medicare visit on the 13th August is likely an poison indicator…too much/too little? Not feeling right etc..

It’s so unlikely an accomplice would use her Medicare card..why?

 

[Getro callum]

But doesn’t it seem possible she returned to access her money? The immigration card stated she was to be in Australia 3 days.. RB could have bought her a ticket simply to get the rest of the money.. it’s quite hard moving large amounts of money with different ids/ that may have old addresses etc

Something may have gone wrong after that time..the Medicare visit on the 13th August is likely an poison indicator…too much/too little? Not feeling right etc..

It’s so unlikely an accomplice would use her Medicare card..why?

Wow what on earth did he do with so much money that he scammed from everyone..I can’t understand how he spent it all?? Private school fees? I doubt he would have been smart enough to buy property as this would affect his pension..and I don’t think RB thought ‘long term’

 

[Getro callum]

Airport immigration was still very strict in 1997. It would have still been very hard to use her passport/ fake MBs handwriting (though not impossible). Also MB had a very distinctive face/features … I doubt diane could have passed for her.. even when younger.

 

[lrb66]

Airport immigration was still very strict in 1997. It would have still been very hard to use her passport/ fake MBs handwriting (though not impossible). Also MB had a very distinctive face/features … I doubt diane could have passed for her.. even when younger.

He’s a document forger right?
Same passport number, same date of birth etc but different photo
We didn’t have e passports in1997 and no holographic images on them as far I I can remember in fact they probably changed them to improve security IMO

 

[Getro callum]

Airport immigration was still very strict in 1997. It would have still been very hard to use her passport/ fake MBs handwriting (though not impossible). Also MB had a very distinctive face/features … I doubt diane could have passed for her.. even when younger.

Ringing sally just before flying home makes perfect sense as then she had a few days/or a week where she could get the account sorted in australia and get back overseas without having to ring anyone in Australia and possibly lie and say you are o/s when you weren’t also it would be obvious without the std code beep at the beginning. It certainly isn’t something you would want to tell anyone about… accessing money / loosing some money initially etc

I don’t see how this isn’t likely..
or she could have cottoned on to his dodgy ways herself and gotten back to get the money and prevent him from getting it..


It’s similar to the other victim who travelled home at haste to find RB at her property…

I don’t think MB would have stood for any crap…however when you want to believe in a romantic partner you often put common sense to the side and I don’t think she would have dropped the illusion so quickly.

 

[Getro callum]

He’s a document forger right?
Same passport number, same date of birth etc but different photo
We didn’t have e passports in1997 and no holographic images on them as far I I can remember in fact they probably changed them to improve security IMO

But I clearly remember travelling in the 90s and it wasn’t as easy as you may think… the passport itself was laminated with a special cover etc and if he was going to go the whole trouble of tampering with it why not just buy a new fake one or if it was his wife what is the purpose of travelling on MBs. Only needed the fake photo for the bank withdrawals. There is no valid reason for a fake MB entry to Australia. (Unless it was illegal immigration scam… & I don’t think he would have branched out this far)

You would have needed a very skilled laminating job to Change the passport photo and I don’t think he would have bothered… it was too easy for him to get money other ways… I mean women simply handed it to him. He used coercive control to get money which in a way is smarter because it’s legal (well was then).

 

[Getro callum]

But I clearly remember travelling in the 90s and it wasn’t as easy as you may think… the passport itself was laminated with a special cover etc and if he was going to go the whole trouble of tampering with it why not just buy a new fake one or if it was his wife what is the purpose of travelling on MBs. Only needed the fake photo for the bank withdrawals. There is no valid reason for a fake MB entry to Australia. (Unless it was illegal immigration scam… & I don’t think he would have branched out this far)

You would have needed a very skilled laminating job to Change the passport photo and I don’t think he would have bothered… it was too easy for him to get money other ways… I mean women simply handed it to him. He used coercive control to get money which in a way is smarter because it’s legal (well was then).

The only reason the name change I think is to avoid being caught and the control it allows. Being privy to name changes means 1.) he knew how to do it & did it for her & he would most likely be listed as the other contact/next of kin etc he knew all her details & she was dependent oh him for advice etc and he also knew if she was to accuse him of something it would be harder to find him.

I don’t really think he intended on poisoning her and making her disappear.

I do think he intended on getting her back overseas after getting access to the money again so he could abandon her o/seas. But I think something happened before then and she never made it back.

 

[Meligator]

No, I think something happened to Marion and he was trying to distance himself.

I agree. I think one possible distinction between MB and other victims was possibly MB learning his real identity or address. Perhaps she came across car sale title in his new car, or something like that.

 

[gymtonic]

Ringing sally just before flying home makes perfect sense as then she had a few days/or a week where she could get the account sorted in australia and get back overseas without having to ring anyone in Australia…

I think it’s worth reminding ourselves why MB rang SL in the first place. She rang because she heard about the landslide disaster in Threadbo, and she knew that SL was in that area and rang to check she was OK. I did some posts a long time ago…one of them below which outlined how the date of the Threadbo disaster fixes it and narrows down the time frame for making it and then that this in conjunction with the itinerary for the flight that came into Brisbane from Hong Kong on August 2 is the key to the case at this point. I know that AC has posited (as many others have) that the phone call was made en route or on landing…but IMO a the news of the disaster is likely to have hit the press during the supposed flight (given the timing of when the BBC reported it) and therefore Is it less likely that she would have heard this news en route or in another transit country? Always possible I guess but then why, when getting through to voicemail on the first call would she not be so concerned as to say…I’m on my way home? Regardless of any supposed plans to keep a flying visit secret, the thought of your daughter possibly being involved in a disaster might throw that out of the window.

Added to this the postmarked cards…
I looked back at my post below…I I still don’t think I would change much of my reasoning.

Post in thread 'Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #11'
Australia - Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #11

 

[Getro callum]

I think it’s worth reminding ourselves why MB rang SL in the first place. She rang because she heard about the landslide disaster in Threadbo, and she knew that SL was in that area and rang to check she was OK. I did some posts a long time ago…one of them below which outlined how the date of the Threadbo disaster fixes it and narrows down the time frame for making it and then that this in conjunction with the itinerary for the flight that came into Brisbane from Hong Kong on August 2 is the key to the case at this point. I know that AC has posited (as many others have) that the phone call was made en route or on landing…but IMO a the news of the disaster is likely to have hit the press during the supposed flight (given the timing of when the BBC reported it) and therefore Is it less likely that she would have heard this news en route or in another transit country? Always possible I guess but then why, when getting through to voicemail on the first call would she not be so concerned as to say…I’m on my way home? Regardless of any supposed plans to keep a flying visit secret, the thought of your daughter possibly being involved in a disaster might throw that out of the window.

Added to this the postmarked cards…
I looked back at my post below…I I still don’t think I would change much of my reasoning.

Post in thread 'Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #11'
Australia - Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #11

But if she didn’t return…who would have risked prosecution by travelling back on her passport? Illegal immigrant? Wife? Why? Unless it was an immigrant someone else would have run the risk of the passport already been cancelled and if the passport was sold no one in their right mind would write ‘3 days’ as this is unrealistic for a tourist trip. ..However to sort a banking issue out 3 days makes sense..

 

[Estelle]

But doesn’t it seem possible she returned to access her money? The immigration card stated she was to be in Australia 3 days.. RB could have bought her a ticket simply to get the rest of the money.. it’s quite hard moving large amounts of money with different ids/ that may have old addresses etc

Something may have gone wrong after that time..the Medicare visit on the 13th August is likely an poison indicator…too much/too little? Not feeling right etc..

It’s so unlikely an accomplice would use her Medicare card..why?

All he needed for someone to do that is for a female to use it as there is no photo ID on a Medicare card. DdH was the prefect choice.

 

[gymtonic]

But if she didn’t return…who would have risked prosecution by travelling back on her passport? Illegal immigrant? Wife? Why? Unless it was an immigrant someone else would have run the risk of the passport already been cancelled and if the passport was sold no one in their right mind would write ‘3 days’ as this is unrealistic for a tourist trip. ..However to sort a banking issue out 3 days makes sense..

It was 8 days not 3, but I agree it’s still a short time but not unheard of and really only raised a red flag years later and in the context of this investigation. I had a friend from the UK come visit me in Oz for a few days back in the 80s as there was this (legal at the time) scheme going around where people who wanted something shipped to Australia could buy the ticket for the baggage allowance only and so you could fly to Oz for a few days with only carryon luggage.

…and yes, some people have been, and still are, so desperate to migrate to Australia and get past the restrictive migration criteria and process that they would risk buying a passport obtained by identity theft and have it falsified, and are willing to risk prosectution.

IMO flying back to Oz for 8 days to « sort out a banking issue » makes less sense than ringing the bank From O/S. Despite time difference and international phone calls it still doesn’t add up. If it was MB coming back and not wanting to raise a red flag, why write a short time on the card anyway? Whoever it was didn’t stay at the location named on the card Why write an accurate time span?

 

[lrb66]

The answer is always money (and power and control) for RB
He actually doesn’t have a conscience to guide or worry him IMO