Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #21

[mishy66]

Also his ‘brothers’ surname of David is of Jewish origin. It’s a surname used in Hungary amongst other countries. I just can’t let the Hungarian Jewish link go!!

Did one of the witnesses say he was Jewish without him actually telling them? I apologise if I have that wrong. So much to remember in this case.

Yes I also believe there is a very strong Hungarian Jewish link too.
Mine stems back to RC and the deH name and IK family
It's the football link too that I cant shake

I can't remember about the witness saying he was Jewish before he made up some BS story to them. Was it the neighbour?

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Yes I also believe there is a very strong Hungarian Jewish link too.
Mine stems back to RC and the deH name and IK family
It's the football link too that I cant shake

I can't remember about the witness saying he was Jewish before he made up some BS story to them. Was it the neighbour?

I wish I could remember Mishy. I thought it might have been a ‘victim’ but I would have to trawl through the podcasts again.

The fact the ‘victim’ Charlotte said he could speak fluent Hungarian is intriguing. Yes his 3rd wife was Hungarian but I suspect she could speak English & French and possibly German. Why was he so fluent? What was his history with Hungary?

Yes the possible football link with a Hungarian based team in Australia. We know Marion’s 1st husband played for a Hungarian ex-pat based team in NSW in the 1960s and early 1970s.

 

[Kie22]

I do believe they lived on separate continents at one point. JMO but I think she knew of the MC affair and went back to Australia for a period of time, probably back to her family. Not that she divulged this info at the inquest.

I wondered if this is the reason he vehemently denied having a sexual relationship with MC at the inquest. Was this a huge issue at the time and did DdH leave him because of it, only to return when he pleaded with her and convinced her it was only a 'platonic relationship'?
When he said at the inquest "What reason would I have to lie?" my thought was: because this might be the one affair that turns your wife into a witness for the prosecution. JMO.

 

[Bibno]

I wish I could remember Mishy. I thought it might have been a ‘victim’ but I would have to trawl through the podcasts again.

The fact the ‘victim’ Charlotte said he could speak fluent Hungarian is intriguing. Yes his 3rd wife was Hungarian but I suspect she could speak English & French and possibly German. Why was he so fluent? What was his history with Hungary?

Yes the possible football link with a Hungarian based team in Australia. We know Marion’s 1st husband played for a Hungarian ex-pat based team in NSW in the 1960s and early 1970s.

I think the Jewish thing was recently, I remember being interested when it was mentioned.

Also re his 3rd wife, if this is IK, then according to her immigration papers her English was extremely poor. (This is from memory).

 

[ruby925]

I think the Jewish thing was recently, I remember being interested when it was mentioned.

Also re his 3rd wife, if this is IK, then according to her immigration papers her English was extremely poor. (This is from memory).

Was it the car salesman who recalled the conversation with RB and even told his wife about it?

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I think the Jewish thing was recently, I remember being interested when it was mentioned.

Also re his 3rd wife, if this is IK, then according to her immigration papers her English was extremely poor. (This is from memory).

Thanks for that Bibno. She was living in Belgium so I would guess she wouldn’t be using Hungarian that often there. I just wonder what language AKA and IK communicated in. If it was Hungarian it’s not a language you learn overnight. I just feel there is a Hungarian connection in this story.

 

[ruby925]

Found it, it was a post by Joni on MPMB FB page on 03Jun, reproduced on this forum but I couldn't see how to link it to this new thread.
"
Earlier this year I spoke to a couple who owned a Used Car Dealership near Ric Blum's home in 1997. They had not heard anything about the case and had never been contacted.
"Mr L" confirmed that he sold the Mitsubishi Magna registration "PVC 096" to Rick de Hedervary on 11th August, 1997. We have documentary evidence of this transaction to confirm this.
"Mr. L" recalls Mr. Blum clearly because he perceived him as so unusual in presentation and personality in this interaction. "Mr. L" told me that he recalled him talking about his leg injuries from his accident as a policeman in Belgium, his Jewish heritage and the fact he only “dealt in cash” as a successful "ancient coin dealer", this was his said trade.
He mentioned that he actually felt chuffed at the time that a man who was so educated with his perfect French accent was being so friendly with him, taking the time to talk to him about his extraordinary life story.
"Mr. L" recalled that he did see a “European looking woman” sitting in the car Mr. Blum drove to the yard. He thinks this woman was Mrs Diane de Hedervary, when looking at images of both Diane and Marion online, however it was a long time ago and the car was parked a distance away.
He stated that Mr. Blum told him that he was leaving Australia shortly, as he was in the process of purchasing an apartment in France in which to live. "Mr. L" had the impression this move was intended within days of him purchasing the car, he then wondered why he needed this “absolute rust bucket” at all."

 

[Carovb5]

Yes there was a WW a motorcross rider in the 1960s in Stekene in Belgium that you found. I wonder if one of our Belgium sleuths could rule that one in or out?

I wanna give it a try. Could you send me the picture/info you had?

 

[mishy66]

I wondered if this is the reason he vehemently denied having a sexual relationship with MC at the inquest. Was this a huge issue at the time and did DdH leave him because of it, only to return when he pleaded with her and convinced her it was only a 'platonic relationship'?
When he said at the inquest "What reason would I have to lie?" my thought was: because this might be the one affair that turns your wife into a witness for the prosecution. JMO.

Great point.
After all Diane was pregnant when they were having the affair.
Did she make mention she knew of the affair at the inquest. I think so. Have to check that one.

And looking at the addresses he and diane used on their passenger cards does lead one to suspect they werent living in the same place at various times.

@MrsWattle also made mention of this.
Might do a timeline of addresses see what picture that paints.

I know the address she used when coming back with D was around the cnr from one he used for a couple of yrs.

 

[mishy66]

The MBFB page wouldn't be putting a call out for accommodation in BB in 1997 if it wasn't relevant to the case.

And given that Accor accommodations are now relevant to the case and that Accor was attached to Trendwest holiday program, it may be he didnt need to spend a cent on accommodation. We dont know if he needed to spend a fortune on accommodation.
We dont have all the cards, so I'm keeping a very opened mind of this search they are doing.
So for me, its very relevant that they may have stayed in accommodation even if their home was half an hour away.

He's a criminal. Criminals dont think or act like one would expect.

We dont know all the cards in this case thus far.

It was only recently revealed he has over 50 aliases, prior to that it was around 30.

I suspect we only know the tip of the iceberg.

JMO of course

 

[mishy66]

I wanna give it a try. Could you send me the picture/info you had?

will do

 

[MrPickles]

The MBFB page wouldn't be putting a call out for accommodation in BB in 1997 if it wasn't relevant to the case.

And given that Accor accommodations are now relevant to the case and that Accor was attached to Trendwest holiday program, it may be he didnt need to spend a cent on accommodation. We dont know if he needed to spend a fortune on accommodation.
We dont have all the cards, so I'm keeping a very opened mind of this search they are doing.
So for me, its very relevant that they may have stayed in accommodation even if their home was half an hour away.

He's a criminal. Criminals dont think or act like one would expect.

We dont know all the cards in this case thus far.

It was only recently revealed he has over 50 aliases, prior to that it was around 30.

I suspect we only know the tip of the iceberg.

JMO of course

It stands to reason after being inquest hamstrung for nearly 2 years that JC would put a call out to BB residents regarding accommodation management in 1997 now that the inquest has wound up and it’s down to final submissions.

Highly relevant! It only takes one person to place MB in BB in 1997 with a man that fits the description of AKA to break the case open.

People move towns, states - don’t follow local news. Everything is about the moving parts of a jigsaw to find Marion.

One should easily make the conclusion their hope is to somehow link MB to accommodation in BB with AKA, not DdH. That’s the crucial pathway to finding the truth - no matter of one’s own speculative beliefs of what happened to MB.

Let it be everyone’s hope that it’s the lead they get, not DdH holed up in BB with AKA - 30 minutes drive from their home address.

 

[mishy66]

When was the Blum name first used with Renov Pubs?

OK have found he changed his name to RB in 2014
and the following year added it to RP - so June 2015 was the first association to RP with that name by the looks

He then removes it prior to inquest to FdeH and reinstates RB just after.

Whatever it is, it is VERY important to him. It has been the one constant in all those years - one year prior to coming out to Australia.

"RENOV PUBS is in the industry of Designing and conducting advertising and promotional campaigns for third parties via the various media".

I remember one of the sleuths, @Eyespywithmylittleeye maybe? finding a great link to the name Rainer Blum - a master forger and another Sleuth ( sorry I cant remember who now) suggesting Renov Pubs perhaps being connected to philatelic products.

Which could be why he has this company. Given what we know more recently about the victims and the ongoing theft of coin and stamp collections.

I know at the time we found that Rainer Blum led us to a man named David Gee here in Australia - he made false die plates resembling those used for the production of postage stamps along with forgeries of some of Australia's rarest coins and that led us back to Adolph Pauls with his little paper art in Nymboida.

I won't post it all up again but a search should find it.


I wonder if Dianes father was a coin collector?

 

[mishy66]

Just looking at Rainer Blum again and the image of him is the same as the person who was the Managing Director for WestfalenBahn GmbH - a railway company operating regional train service in Germany and is now CEO for Abellio Germany.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I wanna give it a try. Could you send me the picture/info you had?

Have you received it now Carovb5?

 

[MrPickles]

Yes the bank mysteries.

I agree with you Lord Peter. IF it was Marion she would have had the means to withdraw all her own money and even if she lost some money in bank fees to do so - after all if she was coming in to "get money to buy this school he spoke of", she wouldn't be wasting time hiding out for 3 months while she did all these withdrawals in small amounts, then a large transfer.
I have never known a bank to say no sorry you cant take all your money out at once, so go do it over weeks please.
She also states she was here for only 8 days, but there is no return flight?

This is part of one of the Bank Managers testimony :
At the time there were nine or 10 Colonial State branches across northern New South Wales and the Gold Coast, including Bryon Bay, Burleigh Heads, Southport, Tweed Heads and Lismore. He remembered her well. "As soon as I saw her photo I recognised her." We weren't a large branch.

We knew Marion well. We got to know her by sight.
To withdraw $5K at a time a customer would have to enter a branch as there were limits on ATM withdrawals.
If she was at another branch she would have to provide identification. And that would be through a passport or driver's license.

Her property sold and funds were put into a high performing interest account, but there was a restriction that only $5K could be withdrawn a day.

If the money was over $10,000 the information would be collected and passed on the file for review by the authorities.

He had no recollection of police from either Queensland or New South Wales getting in contact with him in 1997 /1998. Nor was he approached by the Salvation Army Family Tracing Unit. And was there was no security officer at Ashmore.

..........

And as the MBFB page said, Marion would have had her MB bankcard and change of name ID with her to eliminate the possibility of filling out bank forms - there was no bankbook.
( IF IT WAS HER - IMO he had all her MB documentation after he helped her pack)

So looking at this and knowing the deH living half hour from the area and there was a wait of 2 weeks to the withdrawing of 5K amounts by going to various NSW / QLD banks and almost 3 months all up to the final 80K on the GC, makes you wonder right.
SL didn't know about the 80K transfer until 2018 FOI, in G Childs notes - the very same file he said was lost 10 yrs earlier'


I'm still at a loss as to HOW the bank could have possibly phoned Marion to confirm it was her, given she had no home / phone!!!

There’s ZERO evidence that MB did not have a bank book in 1997 - A bank book transaction was the easiest form of bank forgery back in the day. All it took was a forged signature to match a signature under ultra violet light and a $5,000 or less withdrawal. Regardless of branch - one could have their ‘bank signature’ transferred to another branch claiming they had changed address. That would require a licence photo to be provided once in the name of MB.

A ‘bankcard’ in 1997 was a credit card. A ‘bankcard’ (was like MasterCard and visa being the most common nowadays - ‘bankcard’ phased out in the mid 2,000’s) and travellers cheques were the most popular use of overseas currency in 1997.

While ATM cards were in use and becoming far more popular, it was more of a bank target selling point to the younger more tech savvy generation coming through. Bank books were still the most common banking transaction use in 1997, particularly for someone of MB’s generation.

The bank manager’s mention of ATM’s doesn’t mean MB had an ATM card which would’ve required photo ID for every transaction inside the bank back then.

As Marion’s name change was very recent, and her Australian bank accounts were still in the name of MB - her change of name documents were useless in the instance of bank withdrawals in the name of MB. If anything, her change of name would’ve made the multiple withdrawals far more suspicious.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

OK have found he changed his name to RB in 2014
and the following year added it to RP - so June 2015 was the first association to RP with that name by the looks

He then removes it prior to inquest to FdeH and reinstates RB just after.

Whatever it is, it is VERY important to him. It has been the one constant in all those years - one year prior to coming out to Australia.

"RENOV PUBS is in the industry of Designing and conducting advertising and promotional campaigns for third parties via the various media".

I remember one of the sleuths, @Eyespywithmylittleeye maybe? finding a great link to the name Rainer Blum - a master forger and another Sleuth ( sorry I cant remember who now) suggesting Renov Pubs perhaps being connected to philatelic products.

Which could be why he has this company. Given what we know more recently about the victims and the ongoing theft of coin and stamp collections.

I know at the time we found that Rainer Blum led us to a man named David Gee here in Australia - he made false die plates resembling those used for the production of postage stamps along with forgeries of some of Australia's rarest coins and that led us back to Adolph Pauls with his little paper art in Nymboida.

I won't post it all up again but a search should find it.


I wonder if Dianes father was a coin collector?

Thanks Mishy. Very interesting.

 

[Newby171]

There’s ZERO evidence that MB did not have a bank book in 1997 - A bank book transaction was the easiest form of bank forgery back in the day. All it took was a forged signature under ultra violet light and a $5,000 or less withdrawal. Regardless of branch - one could have their ‘bank signature’ transferred to another branch claiming they had changed address. That would require a licence photo to be provided once in the name of MB.

A ‘bankcard’ in 1997 was a credit card. A ‘bankcard’ (was like MasterCard and visa being the most common nowadays - ‘bankcard’ phased out in the mid 2,000’s) and travellers cheques were the most popular use of overseas currency in 1997.

While ATM cards were in use and becoming far more popular, it was more of a bank target selling point to the younger more tech savvy generation coming through. Bank books were still the most common banking transaction use in 1997, particularly for someone of MB’s generation.

The bank manager’s mention of ATM’s doesn’t mean MB had an ATM card which would’ve required photo ID for every transaction back then.

As Marion’s name change was very recent, and her Australian bank accounts were still in the name of MB - her change of name documents were useless in the instance of bank withdrawals in the name of MB.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

There’s ZERO evidence that MB did not have a bank book in 1997 - A bank book transaction was the easiest form of bank forgery back in the day. All it took was a forged signature under ultra violet light and a $5,000 or less withdrawal. Regardless of branch - one could have their ‘bank signature’ transferred to another branch claiming they had changed address. That would require a licence photo to be provided once in the name of MB.

A ‘bankcard’ in 1997 was a credit card. A ‘bankcard’ (was like MasterCard and visa being the most common nowadays - ‘bankcard’ phased out in the mid 2,000’s) and travellers cheques were the most popular use of overseas currency in 1997.

While ATM cards were in use and becoming far more popular, it was more of a bank target selling point to the younger more tech savvy generation coming through. Bank books were still the most common banking transaction use in 1997, particularly for someone of MB’s generation.

The bank manager’s mention of ATM’s doesn’t mean MB had an ATM card which would’ve required photo ID for every transaction back then.

As Marion’s name change was very recent, and her Australian bank accounts were still in the name of MB - her change of name documents were useless in the instance of bank withdrawals in the name of MB.

Perhaps I’m getting the wrong end of the stick but in the UK my bank accounts in 1997 didn’t have a ‘passbook’ however my Building Society accounts that ran along similar lines to banks did. Saying that I didn’t have a large amounts of money to withdraw or move around so I can’t really comment on the procedures at that time especially in Australia.

There is a strong probability Marion was using travellers cheques when she came to the UK in order to fund her shopping etc.

 

[Newby171]

I have no recollection of using a bank book in 1997. I most certainly had a card, a ”key card”, the old swipe system, I believe. I also had a pin number back then. From memory statements came via post. And I can remember using a very primitive phone banking to check balances. I also remember the bank having my signature at my local branch.