Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #21

[MrPickles]

Yes a decent bank or society bank will call you if any withdrawals transfers etc to check as per rules , once satisfied you are the one who made the transaction, no further action is necessary

Now even more intriguing I’ve just listened to Chris L’s evidence stating he was sure SL phoned the Commonwealth Bank phone banking in regards to MB’s account where she learned of the withdrawals - and it was the Commonwealth Bank they visited in Byron Bay.

Yet 2 bank employees gave evidence she had 2 accounts with Colonial State. I’m seriously scratching my head.

 

[MrPickles]

my understanding is the $14K is the money in the UK account that was then moved to unclaimed funds

Yes! That makes sense.

 

[CuriousKat99]

Also one of RB's 'tells' is when he asks 'how could I do that?', 'why would I do that?' type questions and this is when he knows exactly how and why.

Yes, recall Laura Richards’ (Criminal Behaviour Analyst) comments on TLV podcast that answering a question with a question is a sign of deception. If you listen to AKA on the witness stand, he answers questions with questions quite frequently.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Now even more intriguing I’ve just listened to Chris L’s evidence stating he was sure SL phoned the Commonwealth Bank phone banking in regards to MB’s account where she learned of the withdrawals - and it was the Commonwealth Bank they visited in Byron Bay.

Yet 2 bank employees gave evidence she had 2 accounts with Colonial State. I’m seriously scratching my head.

we have all been scratching our head from the beginning on this one, we have pretty much concluded that it was the Commonwealth Bank that Sally physical visited.

 

[Bibno]

Yes! That makes sense.

my understanding is the $14K is the money in the UK account that was then moved to unclaimed funds

I thought that it had been established that there was no actual UK account, but that Barclays Bank in Rye had been given as a mailing address for a credit card.

Cannot remember when, though.

 

[Bibno]

I thought that it had been established that there was no actual UK account, but that Barclays Bank in Rye had been given as a mailing address for a credit card.

Cannot remember when, though.

Here is a link to a relevant post.

Australia - Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #19

O Def Marion didn’t collect tea chests..and there was no pilot Of course there wasnt lol

www.websleuths.com

 

[MrPickles]

Here is a link to a relevant post.

Australia - Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #19

O Def Marion didn’t collect tea chests..and there was no pilot Of course there wasnt lol

www.websleuths.com

Thank you, Bibno.

 

[MrPickles]

we have all been scratching our head from the beginning on this one, we have pretty much concluded that it was the Commonwealth Bank that Sally physical visited.

Thank you. CL seemed certain in his evidence.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I have had thoughts about the name change being something he didn't appear to do again ..

Previous to Marion phoning Sally its possible she had not seen or heard from RB for some time and was concerned enough to book that flight back to find him or she heard a *advertiser censored* and bull story from him that he had to return for business so she set off to clear it up in her mind, she is not stupid but could at this stage given him the benefit of any doubt , hence saying on incoming card she would be going back ,thinking the future in Lux was still viable ....

Obviously him thinking as he did with others they would be stuck overseas and he would have time to do the deed ..

Marion having a name change IMO buggered up his plans somehow so he never did the same again re name change ...that we know of and may have been something he did previous with others but not since ...

The reason I stay on this thread is because now and then a new nugget comes up from sleuthing or reasoning. Creativity (and problem solving) always takes a full trash can to make progress imho. (Or as the saying goes, take what you need and leave the rest.)

@centred brings up an interesting point: how Marion's case differs from the others. I think that could be relevant. Either RB talked her into changing her name or Marion did it out of whimsy. If RB talked her into it, he might have very soon regretted doing so since Remakel was a direct link to him. Has any benefit to RB for the name change been shown if Marion's only Remakel ID's were passport and International driving license? I believe he made a big mistake.

If RB did take Marion's docs and/or planned to withdraw her money with an imposter there was no need to stage a boarding card in Marion's Remakel name. In fact that further connected Marion to RB!

@centred 's post leads me back to the idea that Marion returned to Australia without letting RB know. Either out of suspicion of him or to please him and rescue the dream. It was meant to be a quick trip to set things right or end the relationship. And that was her downfall. She had the Remakel name and she was back on his home turf. A double whammy. This explains the gap between Marion's arrival and the withdrawals (RB's attempt to make the con pay off after Marion's death.) It also explains the Marion's plan of an 8 day stay. That's all it would take to sort things.

[An aside here. Having been in a similar relationship I can attest to the idea of flying halfway round the world to prove to my controlling boyfriend that I was loyal and loved him. Or to catch him being unfaithful.]

 

[ruby925]

Agree the name change, if initiated by RB, was a mistake not to be repeated. Marion kept her FNMR identity a secret from Sally but therefore she could not change her bank account in Australia from Barter to FNMR until Sally had deposited the money from the sale of the car...or this would raise a red flag for SL, maybe too early for Marion. Also, we know from the border control cards that RB often only spent a short time in Australia before heading back to Europe, so an 8 day trip back to Australia would not seem unusual to him. Personally, I think it's amazing if people fly from Europe to Australia for 8 days unless it's work related, but I know Australians are big travellers so maybe a norm for them?
No answers, still just trying to make sense of some of it. Listening to some of RB's and DDH's testimony again today, heartbreaking for SL to have to sit through all of it.

 

[MrPickles]

The reason I stay on this thread is because now and then a new nugget comes up from sleuthing or reasoning. Creativity (and problem solving) always takes a full trash can to make progress imho. (Or as the saying goes, take what you need and leave the rest.)

@centred brings up an interesting point: how Marion's case differs from the others. I think that could be relevant. Either RB talked her into changing her name or Marion did it out of whimsy. If RB talked her into it, he might have very soon regretted doing so since Remakel was a direct link to him. Has any benefit to RB for the name change been shown if Marion's only Remakel ID's were passport and International driving license? I believe he made a big mistake.

If RB did take Marion's docs and/or planned to withdraw her money with an imposter there was no need to stage a boarding card in Marion's Remakel name. In fact that further connected Marion to RB!

@centred 's post leads me back to the idea that Marion returned to Australia without letting RB know. Either out of suspicion of him or to please him and rescue the dream. It was meant to be a quick trip to set things right or end the relationship. And that was her downfall. She had the Remakel name and she was back on his home turf. A double whammy. This explains the gap between Marion's arrival and the withdrawals (RB's attempt to make the con pay off after Marion's death.) It also explains the Marion's plan of an 8 day stay. That's all it would take to sort things.

[An aside here. Having been in a similar relationship I can attest to the idea of flying halfway round the world to prove to my controlling boyfriend that I was loyal and loved him. Or to catch him being unfaithful.]

Mrs Peel, yesterday I listened to JO’s evidence again. Afterwards she allowed AS to interview her.

The hold and trust AKA seems to gain is quite astonishing. Even after JO’s cousin’s suspicions and flying JO home ASAP - when AKA turned up she still trusted him. He certainly did not give up even after JO’s surprise return home. He encouraged her to sell her home to carry on with their plans to purchase a property in either the South of France, Spain or Algiers. AKA had returned JO’s house deed and she filed it. She arranged for a real estate agent to value her property. When the agent arrived she went to her file to realise the deed was gone. That’s when the penny finally dropped. Although she’d had the locks changed - she’d noticed a window key was missing. In early January, holiday season, she had to shop around urgently to find a solicitor to put a caveat on her house and reissue her house deed with a new number.

While everyone in here would be well aware of these details - I’m just reposting to show the level of trust he gains with his convincing gift of the gab.

IF MB’s return to AU was a surprise return, I have to wonder if like JO, Mr Smooth was able to placate MB’s suspicions?

I agree that the name change was his big mistake. If MB had kept her name the MF Remakel ad would never have been associated to MB.

I also consider the possibility that 5k a day cap on MB’s account to have been a real problem that he didn’t envisage. He likely thought the lot could be withdrawn within days and he could ship her back off to the UK (saying he’d follow after completing business) then he’d disappear as he does - no more FR. He had travelled under his RLW passport- nothing for the police to find.

 

[Jennyw12000]

A few questions that are confusing to me :
1 If MB returned without Mr B knowing, how did she contact him? He was very cagey about whether she had his phone number ir not and his usual practice is to not be contactable.
2 If MB returned without Mr B knowing, and had no contact number, how would he contact her?
3 If MB had no contact number did she in fact go to his house with/without tea chests, and so knew where to possibly find him?

Sorry if these are all previously discussed.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

great questions @Jennyw12000. It's so hard to remember life before rampant cell phone use.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

The reason I stay on this thread is because now and then a new nugget comes up from sleuthing or reasoning. Creativity (and problem solving) always takes a full trash can to make progress imho. (Or as the saying goes, take what you need and leave the rest.)

@centred brings up an interesting point: how Marion's case differs from the others. I think that could be relevant. Either RB talked her into changing her name or Marion did it out of whimsy. If RB talked her into it, he might have very soon regretted doing so since Remakel was a direct link to him. Has any benefit to RB for the name change been shown if Marion's only Remakel ID's were passport and International driving license? I believe he made a big mistake.

If RB did take Marion's docs and/or planned to withdraw her money with an imposter there was no need to stage a boarding card in Marion's Remakel name. In fact that further connected Marion to RB!

@centred 's post leads me back to the idea that Marion returned to Australia without letting RB know. Either out of suspicion of him or to please him and rescue the dream. It was meant to be a quick trip to set things right or end the relationship. And that was her downfall. She had the Remakel name and she was back on his home turf. A double whammy. This explains the gap between Marion's arrival and the withdrawals (RB's attempt to make the con pay off after Marion's death.) It also explains the Marion's plan of an 8 day stay. That's all it would take to sort things.

[An aside here. Having been in a similar relationship I can attest to the idea of flying halfway round the world to prove to my controlling boyfriend that I was loyal and loved him. Or to catch him being unfaithful.]

There is a very sinister aspect to the idea that RB persuaded Marion to change her name in order to gain a passport and drivers licence in the Remakel identity - that he *always* knew he was going to have to end her life once the scam was underway. In that regard it would be premeditated and planned murder, which would lean towards that he had done it one or more times before. I can't imagine how the whole scam can work unless taking into account knowing the whole time that Marion was not going to live to the other side.

There is literally no way Marion spontaneously and without his supervision changed her document names and crafted it to nearly the same initials IMO. Even if she truly believed they were to be married in a ceremony that had been booked and arranged for a particular date, time, location, and that she would change her name in accordance with that, it would have been openly discussed with him. She wouldn't have done it in secret to 'surprise' him... that's not a surprise any bloke would value, it's just tedious paperwork admin.

JMO MOO

 

[lrb66]

Just a thought
Marion had already changed her name from
Wilson to Warren
Warren to Brown
Brown to Barter
She liked having the last name of her partner?
Could Marion have initiated the name change??
Maybe he just went along so it as it didn’t disturb his plans and he didn’t want to alert her??

 

[MrPickles]

A few questions that are confusing to me :
1 If MB returned without Mr B knowing, how did she contact him? He was very cagey about whether she had his phone number ir not and his usual practice is to not be contactable.
2 If MB returned without Mr B knowing, and had no contact number, how would he contact her?
3 If MB had no contact number did she in fact go to his house with/without tea chests, and so knew where to possibly find him?

Sorry if these are all previously discussed.

Great questions, Jenny!

After listening to JO again yesterday. She had no way of contacting him and had no idea where he lived.

Maybe she rang ‘The Big Prawn’ and left him a message.

I also listened to missing persons police officer, Trudy McHendrick’s evidence again yesterday.

Time stamp from 2 minutes, 30 seconds. Her evidence is compelling! She believes it was definitely MB who transferred the 80k and closed her account at Ashmore.

I had forgotten her evidence once AKA became the feature of the inquest.

Now I feel like I’m back to square one with my thoughts/theory.

I’d love to hear other’s thoughts on Trudy’s evidence.

 

[mishy66]

There is a very sinister aspect to the idea that RB persuaded Marion to change her name in order to gain a passport and drivers licence in the Remakel identity - that he *always* knew he was going to have to end her life once the scam was underway. In that regard it would be premeditated and planned murder, which would lean towards that he had done it one or more times before. I can't imagine how the whole scam can work unless taking into account knowing the whole time that Marion was not going to live to the other side.

There is literally no way Marion spontaneously and without his supervision changed her document names and crafted it to nearly the same initials IMO. Even if she truly believed they were to be married in a ceremony that had been booked and arranged for a particular date, time, location, and that she would change her name in accordance with that, it would have been openly discussed with him. She wouldn't have done it in secret to 'surprise' him... that's not a surprise any bloke would value, it's just tedious paperwork admin.

JMO MOO

My thoughts all along.

IMO it all plays back to FR and MC and him getting something he wanted from the real FR.

And Marion would not have known at the time you needed to be a resident to marry in Luxembourg. He would have known that though. So that goes with his laid out plan to have her believing his BS.

Also, he stated he never gave MB his phone number because he was married with children and wouldn't do that to his wife.

Then he states later Marion came to his house to collect tea chests.

He wouldn't be giving her his address if he was worried about his family finding out.

Collecting chests that weighed a ton, in front of neighbours, with a pilot in uniform, at an open garage in full street view, by a woman he admitted knowing and having an affair with....but didnt want his wife to know.

IMO Marion never went to his house. He needed a reason to place her there in case they were going to search his house and find something of hers there.

Yep he instigated her name change for a plan yet to be revealed. IMO

He had 2 wives NR and IK who died young. IK family also died the same year as her. He had guns. One of his victims family investigated links to the Belgium Gang. What those links are haven't been revealed but he must have found something to sway him of this. IMO there's a strong possibility he is/ was a killer. And with contacts.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Just a thought
Marion had already changed her name from
Wilson to Warren
Warren to Brown
Brown to Barter
She liked having the last name of her partner?
Could Marion have initiated the name change??
Maybe he just went along so it as it didn’t disturb his plans and he didn’t want to alert her??

I could possible buy this without ... the Florabell Natalia change .. one thing to change your last name another to change your first names and it coincidental be the same initials as the real FNR

 

[lrb66]

I could possible buy this without ... the Florabell Natalia change .. one thing to change your last name another to change your first names and it coincidental be the same initials as the real FNR

Maybe he also thought he would use to his advantage
He is ever the opportunist???
IMO

 

[KiwiNZ]

Maybe he also thought he would use to his advantage
He is ever the opportunist???
IMO

sorry but no way did Marion come up with Florabella Natalia by herself IMO, the idiot did