Found Deceased Australia - Melissa Caddick, 49, Sydney, NSW, 12 Nov 2020 #6

[Trooper]

There was a copy of the title deeds in the old threads..... maybe who ever linked it could re post it???
However, only Melissa's name was on the Title Deed for Edgecliff.......

and that's the thing.. The court are not courts of morals. Morally, yes they should get their money they put up out of the sale of the house at Lugarno.. but it's a court of Law. If it isn't in writing, then it's all bets off. They can believe, and say what they like, but if they didn't get it written down and qualified by an authorised signatory, then it's goodnight Irene.

 

[minime9]

and that's the thing.. The court are not courts of morals. Morally, yes they should get their money they put up out of the sale of the house at Lugarno.. but it's a court of Law. If it isn't in writing, then it's all bets off. They can believe, and say what they like, but if they didn't get it written down and qualified by an authorised signatory, then it's goodnight Irene.

A good legal team will argue it strongly & I believe they will get something due to their age.

This whole case is a mixture of civil & criminal but if the parents were to issue then it’s a civil matter. The parents haven’t done anything wrong & the house deposit isn’t about an investment, it’s about a deposit for a place to live. Laws are in place but interpretations of those laws are argued every day of the week in every Australian court.

IMO I think the parents will get their deposit back. If they want to keep living where they are then AG would need to pay the mortgage for the outstanding amount otherwise they’re moving anyway.
IMO the investors won’t be happy.

 

[HelloJohnny]

I asked about the casino/gambling because I'm wondering if MC owed some big people some big money for a flighty champagne fuelled bet she made in the earlier stages of her "career", placing big bets may be an amateurs idea of saving face.

Surely you guys have combined forces on this topic already?

I’ll apologise upfront now, if I’ve got hold of the wrong end of the proverbial stick. I might be really on the wrong tangent here...

Are you indicating that there could be a link to the Triad organised crime syndicate, who appear to be big players/influencers in the casino industry, as reported in the media?https://www.news.com.au/finance/bus...d/news-story/65729eb1b8c3d8029b260465db0bcfd4
Thailand Arrests High-Ranking Triad Who Laundered Drug Money at Crown Melbourne
8 February 2021, Philip Conneller
Source: casino.org

Crown casino's links to Asian organised crime exposed
By Nick McKenzie, Nick Toscano and Grace Tobin
27 July 2019
Source: The Age

Crown Casino: Chinese triad rumours that sunk Billionaire James Packer’s casino bid
Natalie Brown, 17 February 2021
Source: news.com.au

 

[SLouTh]

A good legal team will argue it strongly & I believe they will get something due to their age.

Sadly, can they even afford a good legal team now??? AG (as Melissa's EPOA) hired a specialist law firm and the fees were already $100,000 before it got to the hearing.....

And is there a legal "precedent" for this argument? Any lawyers here, that could answer that question???

Also the Investors are having to pay their own legal fees, to get any money back, and if this matter this is challenged in Court it will be more expense for them as well....

Its a no win situation for everyone really.....

 

[minime9]

I see.

Sooo, recap?

Was Australia's sweetheart into the betting? Did you guys rule out any organised crime association?

Sharemarkets / Forex & possibly crypto = Yes

Casino, Pokies & Horseracing = Probably not.

I haven’t ruled out crime association yet. There are lots of shifty people in that part of Sydney that look & act quite respectable. More discreet than John anyway. I definitely haven’t ruled out foul play by someone that isn’t a family member yet.

 

[Trooper]

A good legal team will argue it strongly & I believe they will get something due to their age.

This whole case is a mixture of civil & criminal but if the parents were to issue then it’s a civil matter. The parents haven’t done anything wrong & the house deposit isn’t about an investment, it’s about a deposit for a place to live. Laws are in place but interpretations of those laws are argued every day of the week in every Australian court.

IMO I think the parents will get their deposit back. If they want to keep living where they are then AG would need to pay the mortgage for the outstanding amount otherwise they’re moving anyway.
IMO the investors won’t be happy.

the problem for the parents is , in a nutshell, this....---- they have to prove that part of the deposit for the Edgecliff property was their money acquired from the sale of their house in Lugarno. How in hell they prove that, I do not know, because money , in and of itself doesn't speak for itself. .

Without that firm foundation, any claim they make falls back on the substance of , for want of a better word, entitlement. That they are entitled to it because of their age, because they gave the money to their daughter to buy the property with her help, that they didn't know it was stolen money, that they accepted money from their daughter over the years, not knowing it was stolen, and they should be given a free kick for all this anxiety.

The investors, represented by Dom Calabria will argue that he has twenty couples who's ages are not much less that this unfortunate couple, that they should have had the money arrangement stipulated in writing and lodged with a solicitor, that they have profited by their daughters criminal activities and now is the time to call a halt to that, on behalf of the people who's money they are using to live in Edgecliff. ...

AG doesn't seem to have two pennies to rub together, and he would have to buy outright the property at today's valuation. Cash up front, because he is a bit old to get that kind of loan.

 

[Trooper]

Anyways,, my money is on Calabria, a man who does bareknuckle combat in any courtroom in NSW.

 

[minime9]

Sadly, can they even afford a good legal team now??? AG (as Melissa's EPOA) hired a specialist law firm and the fees were already $100,000 before it got to the hearing.....

And is there a legal "precedent' for this argument? Any lawyers here, that could answer that question???

Also the Investors are having to pay their own legal fees, to get any money back, and if this matter this is challenged in Court it will be more expense for them as well....

Its a no win situation for everyone really.....

I think you’d be surprised. There may be someone willing to take it on pro-Bono.

This type of challenge is fairly unique imo.

 

[minime9]

the problem for the parents is , in a nutshell, this....---- they have to prove that part of the deposit for the Edgecliff property was their money acquired from the sale of their house in Lugarno. How in hell they prove that, I do not know, because money , in and of itself doesn't speak for itself. .

Without that firm foundation, any claim they make falls back on the substance of , for want of a better word, entitlement. That they are entitled to it because of their age, because they gave the money to their daughter to buy the property with her help, that they didn't know it was stolen money, that they accepted money from their daughter over the years, not knowing it was stolen, and they should be given a free kick for all this anxiety.

The investors, represented by Dom Calabria will argue that he has twenty couples who's ages are not much less that this unfortunate couple, that they should have had the money arrangement stipulated in writing and lodged with a solicitor, that they have profited by their daughters criminal activities and now is the time to call a halt to that, on behalf of the people who's money they are using to live in Edgecliff. ...

AG doesn't seem to have two pennies to rub together, and he would have to buy outright the property at today's valuation. Cash up front, because he is a bit old to get that kind of loan.

Transferring of funds will be easy if it happened like they said it did. Bank statements on the parents part will be easy to prove.

The rest will be hard, but there is a clear difference in the parents transferring money for a deposit for somewhere to live & transferring money to invest for retirement.

 

[Trooper]

I think you’d be surprised. There may be someone willing to take it on pro-Bono.

This type of challenge is fairly unique imo.

well.. you can colour me surprised already.. There isn't anything in this kind of case for a firm to take on as a pro bono.. they would be extremely lucky, like tatts lotto winning lucky to find someone who would take it on with a win only fee paying arrangement. It would be entirely without precedent for a court to allow the parents, and the son to be awarded equity, ( that is, the worth of the deposit they say they gave Melissa, not the entire equity of the place.. they are only arguing that portion ) then they still have to come up with what is owed on the mortgage.

They don't hold the mortgage, it died with Melissa. And if. .. remotely, IF they did win, how would they pay the barrister , who's fee would be a percentage of the overall value of the property? they would be paying twice all over to stay in the place.. Once to the mortgage holder and once to the barrister..

This is Sydney real estate , a religion all of it's own, with it 's own arcane and immovable precepts... to reward the parents with the place in Edgecliff would be counter intuitive to any court in NSW. ...

 

[HelloJohnny]

Sadly, can they even afford a good legal team now??? AG (as Melissa's EPOA) hired a specialist law firm and the fees were already $100,000 before it got to the hearing.....

And is there a legal "precedent" for this argument? Any lawyers here, that could answer that question???

Also the Investors are having to pay their own legal fees, to get any money back, and if this matter this is challenged in Court it will be more expense for them as well....

Its a no win situation for everyone really.....

Yes, could be very tough for them. They probably would not qualify for this assistance, if the matter solely relates to property:

The Law Society's Pro Bono Scheme can put you in contact with law firms willing to provide their legal services for free or for reduced fees.

 

[Trooper]

Transferring of funds will be easy if it happened like they said it did. Bank statements on the parents part will be easy to prove.

The rest will be hard, but there is a clear difference in the parents transferring money for a deposit for somewhere to live & transferring money to invest for retirement.

unless it says they transferred it solely for the purpose of PART of the deposit for the Edgecliff place. I would be surprised if they actually had written confirmation that was the purpose of the transfer. They may have the historic bank transfer, but that doesn't say it was for their share of the deposit, the remainder to be put up by Melissa. Which is what happened. . She got the loan for the place on the strength of coughing up the full deposit and her capacity to service a loan. ( on some forged document, I bet ) ..

If she had said she had to get money from her parents to make up the deposit, her loan for that property would have been in risk.. So I don't think she would have left any written history of that kind of transaction anywhere.

 

[Trooper]

Yes, could be very tough for them. They probably would not qualify for this assistance, if the matter solely relates to property:

The Law Society's Pro Bono Scheme can put you in contact with law firms willing to provide their legal services for free or for reduced fees.

That scheme is so overstretched, .. it's a wonder anyone gets assistance, and usually it is for people , solely for people who face long prison terms.. It isn't for people who want to remain in Edgecliff in an apartment they can't pay for. If that were the case the courts would be full of people wanting to stay in Mosman when they run out of money.

 

[minime9]

well.. you can colour me surprised already.. There isn't anything in this kind of case for a firm to take on as a pro bono.. they would be extremely lucky, like tatts lotto winning lucky to find someone who would take it on with a win only fee paying arrangement. It would be entirely without precedent for a court to allow the parents, and the son to be awarded equity, ( that is, the worth of the deposit they say they gave Melissa, not the entire equity of the place.. they are only arguing that portion ) then they still have to come up with what is owed on the mortgage.

They don't hold the mortgage, it died with Melissa. And if. .. remotely, IF they did win, how would they pay the barrister , who's fee would be a percentage of the overall value of the property? they would be paying twice all over to stay in the place.. Once to the mortgage holder and once to the barrister..

This is Sydney real estate , a religion all of it's own, with it 's own arcane and immovable precepts... to reward the parents with the place in Edgecliff would be counter intuitive to any court in NSW. ...

There is no way on this side of hell that they’ll be awarded with the property. That would be ridiculous and I wasn’t arguing that.Deposit maybe yea, property no.

 

[HelloJohnny]

well.. you can colour me surprised already.. There isn't anything in this kind of case for a firm to take on as a pro bono.. they would be extremely lucky, like tatts lotto winning lucky to find someone who would take it on with a win only fee paying arrangement. It would be entirely without precedent for a court to allow the parents, and the son to be awarded equity, ( that is, the worth of the deposit they say they gave Melissa, not the entire equity of the place.. they are only arguing that portion ) then they still have to come up with what is owed on the mortgage.

They don't hold the mortgage, it died with Melissa. And if. .. remotely, IF they did win, how would they pay the barrister , who's fee would be a percentage of the overall value of the property? they would be paying twice all over to stay in the place.. Once to the mortgage holder and once to the barrister..

This is Sydney real estate , a religion all of it's own, with it 's own arcane and immovable precepts... to reward the parents with the place in Edgecliff would be counter intuitive to any court in NSW. ...

I have a lot of empathy for the family and I hope they can access some kind of legal assistance.

Actually, there a number of different pro bono options, than I thought.

 

[Trooper]

There is no way on this side of hell that they’ll be awarded with the property. That would be ridiculous and I wasn’t arguing that.Deposit maybe yea, property no.

What seems obvious to me is this.. they don't have any written back up for their claim, which is why they have decided to fight for it. If they had written backup, the Receiver would accommodate the circumstance as they would then be creditors of Melissa's estate. But they are not any such of a thing which is why they say they are taking it right up to the courts. .

Which could be a bluff hoping to bring the Receiver round to their way of thinking, but he/they can't be doing with that kind of flim flam themselves, their job is to wind up all known debts, and credits, and apportion the funds to whomsoever is owed money by Melissa, and that has to be backed up with genuine paper trail that is impervious to argument.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

It seems to me that the family were victims too.

And how terrifying at the parents age to find that after selling your house for what I think is a good price, they seem to now be left with nothing.

Or do some people think they should be punished for what their daughter did, or made the brunt of unfeeling, cruel jokes.



Just my opinon.

 

[HelloJohnny]

There is no way on this side of hell that they’ll be awarded with the property. That would be ridiculous and I wasn’t arguing that.Deposit maybe yea, property no.

It would depend on the case put forward by the legal representation, and the evidence presented at the hearing.

In this scenario, ruling in favour of the plaintiff might not appear fair, but precedence may have already been established through case law.

 

[Trooper]

I have a lot of empathy for the family and I hope they can access some kind of legal assistance.

Actually, there a number of different pro bono options, than I thought.

Sure. Me too. I'm very sorry for the son, the mum, the dad, the brother, the husband.. it's just awful . But that's why there are laws.. .. To weigh up various awfulnesses....

I happen to have a lot of empathy for those wretched investors, the people who thought they were taking care of their old age. The woman who worked for Melissa, and put her money for her superannuation in those sticky fingers, never to be seen again, a life's work gone. The two elderly ladies, who 's life was one against the grain , who finally were able to come out and be themselves, who pooled their money they worked all their lives for to have some assurance for their old age..

The lady who was the trainer. a hard job, who believed Melissa's yarns and sunk her entire future, that she cannot retrieve or start over again, into those grasping paws , and only found out at Melissa's disappearance...

 

[JLZ]

Transferring of funds will be easy if it happened like they said it did. Bank statements on the parents part will be easy to prove.

The rest will be hard, but there is a clear difference in the parents transferring money for a deposit for somewhere to live & transferring money to invest for retirement.

It actually wasn't paid as their deposit or they would be on the title. They've given Melissa money, got no security for it, and so the money has gone into the mix with all the rest. If they thought they had equity in the property, Melissa deceived them the same as she did all the others. I can't see why they'd get back more than the general rate, 25% of original capital has been mentioned. If they didn't think they had equity but gave Melissa the money to use at Melissa's discretion because they trusted her or were scared of her, perhaps they're not entitled to anything back at all.