Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 March 2020

[Panda]

No way I would ever leave money or valuables in my vehicle overnight unattended, even if I was camping in a remote area.
If I could get there in my vehicle, then others could.

I would never be able to sleep knowing my valuables were not with me.

I respectfully disagree. The safest place to leave your wallet is in the vehicle when you're camping. That way you don't leave it lying around in the tent if you wander away from the campsite, or lose it in the bush. A normal 4WD vehicle has a lot of expensive valuables in it, a wallet is neither here nor there in the scheme of things. I always hide my handbag in the vehicle when camping so it's not seen.

In 40 years of camping in the Australian bush, I've never encountered a theft.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Panda, Lets agree to disagree

 

[Panda]

Has anyone considered that the fire may have started when the couple was asleep during the night?

If both had been burned and or inhaled smoke and the keys were left inside the tent, they would have had no option other than to try to find help on foot. This would mean that they would have travelled in the opposite direction to where the search was conducted.[/QUOTE]

If that was the case, which I very much doubt, they would have walked along the track towards the Station. I'm pretty sure someone would have come across them. Apart from which, the first thing you would grab would be the keys for the vehicle as you fled. Given that theory, they couldn't have been too badly burned to get out of the tent, otherwise they would have been found close to the fire area.

 

[Panda]

yes, I agree...you'd hope in a dire emergency you'd be able to get to your vehicle and drive away--but instant survival would dictate have the essentials (wallet, keys, etc) close by in case of having to run for your life...which brings me to question--didn't they have a gun for self-defense in the tent?? Or at least potent animal repellent? I know I would have a hand gun by my head while sleeping in a tent in the middle of nowhere.

Firearms licensing is very different in Australia. Even if you have a firearm's licence, you aren't allowed to have it in your tent, it has to be safely and securely locked away in a vehicle (if hunting is allowed in the area and if you have a special hunting licence). Handguns aren't permitted at all, except for target shooting at a nominated pistol range.

 

[Tinker Taylor]

Given that theory, they couldn't have been too badly burned to get out of the tent, otherwise they would have been found close to the fire area.

Well, you would think so, but I know of a case of someone who went missing in a small town and his body wasn't found for over 12 months, just a few 100mtrs from where he went missing. So, despite an extensive search, the searchers failed to look in the most obvious place. Here you have dense bushland and some theories that may have led them in the wrong direction.

 

[Panda]

Panda, Lets agree to disagree

No problem at all. If everyone had the same theories, nothing would get solved!

Well, you would think so, but I know of a case of someone who went missing in a small town and his body wasn't found for over 12 months, just a few 100mtrs from where he went missing. So, despite an extensive search, the searchers failed to look in the most obvious place. Here you have dense bushland and some theories that may have led them in the wrong direction.

Very true.

I remember the Ivan Milat case many years ago, which wasn't far from where I was living at the time.

Everyone was astonished that they kept uncovering more and more bodies, despite extensive searches. So ...

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Sometimes bodies can be hiding in plain site, but usually after quite awhile.

There was a case here of a body being found months after the person went missing.
Many people had passed the bundle of rags by the river, but didn't see that it was a body until someone who had experience, I think, recognised the smell. Others had put it down to a dead animal.

 

[trujac]

You wouldn't normally think of being "preyed upon" or needing to "defend yourself" in a remote area. If that's how you think, I don't think camping in a remote area is for you.

Someone coming into your tent will just need to undo a zip, so it's unlikely to wake you in time for you to get your rifle and defend yourself. Anyway, as I said, firearms are not freely available here.

Yes, I understand your point...I would feel comfortable camping in a tent with a group of other tent campers near by--but just camping by myself or with one other individual in a remote area that has roads leading in and out, I don't think I would feel necessarily safe in a pup tent and would opt to sleep in a camper.

 

[JLZ]

I'm new to this thread, but I've had a thought after reading the posts.

Has anyone considered that the fire may have started when the couple was asleep during the night?

If both had been burned and or inhaled smoke and the keys were left inside the tent, they would have had no option other than to try to find help on foot. This would mean that they would have travelled in the opposite direction to where the search was conducted.

Interesting, Tinker. Can you explain more about that last part . . . if they went to seek help on foot, why would they have travelled in the opposite direction to where the search was conducted? And which directions are you talking about?

 

[Tinker Taylor]

Interesting, Tinker. Can you explain more about that last part . . . if they went to seek help on foot, why would they have travelled in the opposite direction to where the search was conducted? And which directions are you talking about?

I'm not familiar with the area, so don't read anything into that, except that maybe the search was primarily to find someone lost in bushland FURTHER from their camp, when they may have been back tracking to try to find the nearest person/people.

I've been thinking about how I might react if I awoke in the dead of night, in the middle of nowhere, to find my tent consumed with fire. I would probably panic and exit the tent asap, but then I could imagine my partner would try to re-enter to get the keys for the vehicle, which would of course make him more likely to be burned/suffer smoke inhalation.

What then, if one or both were seriously injured? Is there some other camp where you might expect to find some people? Is there a settlement or house anywhere? Could we think clearly in the circumstances? Would we just decide to "do something" rather than "sit and do nothing" waiting to die? I don't think I would go off alone not knowing the area and would not leave my partner. How far could we get, would we go cross country rather than follow a road, would we just bumble around in the bush till we succumbed?

So this is why I wonder if the searchers were looking in the right places, thinking they were lost further into the bush rather than they were looking for help as close as possible.

 

[trujac]

I'm not familiar with the area, so don't read anything into that, except that maybe the search was primarily to find someone lost in bushland FURTHER from their camp, when they may have been back tracking to try to find the nearest person/people.

I've been thinking about how I might react if I awoke in the dead of night, in the middle of nowhere, to find my tent consumed with fire. I would probably panic and exit the tent asap, but then I could imagine my partner would try to re-enter to get the keys for the vehicle, which would of course make him more likely to be burned/suffer smoke inhalation.

What then, if one or both were seriously injured? Is there some other camp where you might expect to find some people? Is there a settlement or house anywhere? Could we think clearly in the circumstances? Would we just decide to "do something" rather than "sit and do nothing" waiting to die? I don't think I would go off alone not knowing the area and would not leave my partner. How far could we get, would we go cross country rather than follow a road, would we just bumble around in the bush till we succumbed?

So this is why I wonder if the searchers were looking in the right places, thinking they were lost further into the bush rather than they were looking for help as close as possible.

I think if RH and CC's tent caught on fire while they were in it sleeping, and they suffered any type of skin or hair burn injuries from the fire...there would have been medical ointment/gauze evidence in or around their vehicle. There doesn't seem to be any evidential activity area their camp site other than the fire-damaged tent and its contents, along with scorch marks on the side of their vehicle. It appears to me that RH and CC were removed from the tent, and the perpetrator then set the tent on fire before driving away with them. I think walking RH and CC away from their camp site into the bush somewhere to dispose of them would have required too much effort from their assailant, along with leaving possible evidence for LE investigators.

 

[JLZ]

I think if RH and CC's tent caught on fire while they were in it sleeping, and they suffered any type of skin or hair burn injuries from the fire...there would have been medical ointment/gauze evidence in or around their vehicle. There doesn't seem to be any evidential activity area their camp site other than the fire-damaged tent and its contents, along with scorch marks on the side of their vehicle. It appears to me that RH and CC were removed from the tent, and the perpetrator then set the tent on fire before driving away with them. I think walking RH and CC away from their camp site into the bush somewhere to dispose of them would have required too much effort from their assailant, along with leaving possible evidence for LE investigators.

I took it that Tinker's scenario included their not being able to enter the vehicle due to key damage in the fire. I don't think they would have walked off in search of civilization if they could have driven.

If they'd lost their water supply, what would be the options? Would they have to head for the river, or is there some sort of pump in the camping area?

 

[Tinker Taylor]

I took it that Tinker's scenario included their not being able to enter the vehicle due to key damage in the fire. I don't think they would have walked off in search of civilization if they could have driven.

If they'd lost their water supply, what would be the options? Would they have to head for the river, or is there some sort of pump in the camping area?

Yes, JLZ, I assume that they keys were not able to be found/used and the vehicle was locked as it was found by Police.

Perhaps you are correct, they could have headed for the river, thinking it might help with burns as well as be a way to navigate in the dark?

 

[trujac]

It is hard for me to imagine that their tent going up in fire would have wiped them entirely out of resources--no water, no vehicle keys, no ham radio, etc...supposedly RH was a highly skilled outdoor enthusiast...losing one's entire tent and contents to a flaming fire seems a little far-fetched to me considering RH's level of camping experience, and then to be left entirely stranded with no way to start their vehicle and leave their campsite other than to walk somewhere--well, I would think in a pinch RH would know how to hot wire his truck...

 

[Tinker Taylor]

It is hard for me to imagine that their tent going up in fire would have wiped them entirely out of resources--no water, no vehicle keys, no ham radio, etc...supposedly RH was a highly skilled outdoor enthusiast...losing one's entire tent and contents to a flaming fire seems a little far-fetched to me considering RH's level of camping experience, and then to be left entirely stranded with no way to start their vehicle and leave their campsite other than to walk somewhere--well, I would think in a pinch RH would know how to hot wire his truck...

And yet, you can see his tent and contents did go up in flames and the vehicle was clearly there with the balance of their equipment/goods still locked inside. Where else do you think their gear could have been stored?

Do we ever think something like this could happen to us? I think your comments indicates that we all maybe believe we could do something, but without tools, in the dark, perhaps injured, there would be nothing we could do but try to save ourselves.

 

[trujac]

And yet, you can see his tent and contents did go up in flames and the vehicle was clearly there with the balance of their equipment/goods still locked inside. Where else do you think their gear could have been stored?

Do we ever think something like this could happen to us? I think your comments indicates that we all maybe believe we could do something, but without tools, in the dark, perhaps injured, there would be nothing we could do but try to save ourselves.

I understand your reasoning...but at this point even LE is stating that they believed RH and CC were murdered...how and why did they reached that conclusion?? Possibly because they have not found any evidence that RH and CC walked away from their campsite, and there is no plausible reason why their tent burnt down.

 

[Tinker Taylor]

I understand your reasoning...but at this point even LE is stating that they believed RH and CC were murdered...how and why did they reached that conclusion?? Possibly because they have not found any evidence that RH and CC walked away from their campsite, and there is no plausible reason why their tent burnt down.

Wasn't there a suspicion that the mobile phone charger was the reason for the fire?

 

[Via Marple]

Re the missing items, the initial reports were quite confusing, and then I think the police has not clarified again as to the whereabouts of various items.

Were the phones missing or burnt? Was any other valuables or keys missing or burnt? Apart from the drone, I don't think we are given the information.

Now that we know they are treating this as foul play, I guess they are keeping quiet about some details. MOO

As for a night fire accident, I tend to think that there would have been traces of them walking away eg. Sooted foot prints and so on. Not highly likely IMO but I am no camper.

 

[trujac]

Wasn't there a suspicion that the mobile phone charger was the reason for the fire?

Yes, initially investigators speculated that a cell phone charger might have started the fire in the tent; recently, investigators now say they have set aside that theory.

 

[trujac]

Re the missing items, the initial reports were quite confusing, and then I think the police has not clarified again as to the whereabouts of various items.

Were the phones missing or burnt? Was any other valuables or keys missing or burnt? Apart from the drone, I don't think we are given the information.
Now that we know they are treating this as foul play, I guess they are keeping quiet about some details. MOO
As for a night fire accident, I tend to think that there would have been traces of them walking away eg. Sooted foot prints and so on. Not highly likely IMO but I am no camper.

Early news articles indicated that LE had obtained GPS information from the cell phones indicating the route that RH and CC took while traveling in their vehicle to the camp site, but the cell phones, along with RH's drone, had not been found. I wonder too about RH's ham radio...was that lost in the fire or taken along with what we know is missing. I also found it interesting that Ms. Clay's family knew that she and RH had been frequently camping together, while RH's family had no idea that they had ever camped together.