Australia Australia - Theo Hayez, 18, Belgian backpacker, Byron Bay, June 2019 #2

[mussopossum]

The Police are required to report it to the Coroner. Good practice would be to discuss it with the family (the focus is on the family).
The family can discuss 'the document' with the Police. That discussion might lead to the Police believing that death was less likely and for them to decide to continue the investigation.
The family can ask for it to be referred to the Coroner if the Police don't.
Missing persons

Thanks Buster

I was more confused at what Ann was stating / getting at in the post that was my confusion

 

[BusterXP]

To my understanding it will be left open as a missing person regardless of an inquest.

Even if an inquest and the coroner deems that they believe that the person is deceased (accidental or foul play) without a body or a confession I would imagine that the person would still be missing however presumed deceased.

It could be an Open finding or a finding of deceased. That's for the Coroner to decide. It's 'balance of probabilities'. Open could leave it in limbo for many years with no closure.
Regardless of whether it's Open or most likely death there's always the ability to open the case again.
If the Coroner does find, on the balance of probabilities, that death was most likely then the family can apply for a death certificate.
The legal presumption of fact regarding death in NSW was 7 years. It's up to 10 to 20 in some countries but reduced through more recent legislation. The Coroner's finding negates that. If it was open for 7 years that 7 year presumption could be made.

 

[mussopossum]

Towards the end of podcast#4, misterX is being described as 'tall, lean, with bushy hair'. (At minute 58)
Elsewhere in the podcast it was mentioned that volunteers had met this guy and that he abandoned his camp soon after (I have to look up where it was said in the podcast).
At minute 51 the podcast says: it's almost inconcievable that Theo went all that waY on the beach without being seen on a busy Friday night.

There were people and campfires on Tallow beach, but no one saw Theo?
Was it because it wasn't Theo who walked on the beach carrying the phone, but someone else?

It has not been confirmed that the campfire people were there on the night of the 31st May.

The photos that were recently released are based on uploads to an Instagram account on the 31/5 as per the Podcast.

They were found by people on the Official LFTH Facebook page and it was automatically assumed that the photos were that night due to the date it was posted.

On Instagram you can only see what time the post was made / images uploaded and not when the actual photos were taken.

There is a way to get coding from Instagram accounts (legally) that tells you the time and date a photo was uploaded.

From my investigations and IMOO the photos were not in Theos favor for timing.

 

[Rocket333]

Thanks Buster

I was more confused at what Ann was stating / getting at in the post that was my confusion

We were just discussing all of this last night in a stream of deliberations that possibly sounded disjointed when read back. What we deduced was that the presumption of death allows formalities to proceed. The coronial investigation and/or inquest is the prize I think as it (should) serve to critique the process and content of the police investigation, and interview all relevant people. Fingers crossed that it brings revelations that lead to closure that is satisfactory for the family.

 

[SouthAussie]

"Missing persons, whom police suspect may be deceased, are also reported to the Coroner and investigated. An inquest is required to be held in all missing person cases."
Procedure in NSW is at
Investigation

Yes, thanks. That is the NSW procedure (and relevant to Theo's case).

I was actually asked about all of the missing persons on the AFP list when I said that they don't all go to inquest.
An inquest is not required in all states.


AFP Website:
When a person is missing under accidental, unexplained, or suspicious circumstances, and there is belief the person may be deceased, the case may be referred to the Coroner. Police may refer the case to the Coroner to ascertain whether there are alternate avenues of enquiry as part of the investigative process.
Some States and Territories are required to report all outstanding missing person cases to the Coroner once they reach a certain date/timeframe.
Once a matter is referred to the Coroner’s Office, the Coroner will decide how the coronial will be conducted. This may include deciding whether an inquest is required or whether the Coroner can make a finding (without inquest) based on information provided by the investigating police.
Coronial process

 

[SouthAussie]

It could be an Open finding or a finding of deceased. That's for the Coroner to decide. It's 'balance of probabilities'. Open could leave it in limbo for many years with no closure.
Regardless of whether it's Open or most likely death there's always the ability to open the case again.
If the Coroner does find, on the balance of probabilities, that death was most likely then the family can apply for a death certificate.
The legal presumption of fact regarding death in NSW was 7 years. It's up to 10 to 20 in some countries but reduced through more recent legislation. The Coroner's finding negates that. If it was open for 7 years that 7 year presumption could be made.

Also, a court can presume a death prior to 7 years in NSW - depending on the circumstances.

Where a person is not heard from for a period of 7 years by those persons who would be expected to have communication with that person, then a Court may presume that person dead. This period may be less depending on the circumstances of the disappearance.
Presumption Of Death - Willis & Bowring

 

[mussopossum]

@mussopossum Thank you so much and sorry for having not related your name to the search you did though. I went back to check but made a mess.

All good and I didn't even notice

 

[mussopossum]

certus1 said: ↑
Has anyone read the comments on the LFTH FB page after the last podcast? Set it to "show all" instead of "most relevant" posts and open all the replies. There is one person there who stated that Theo was holding a paper note in his hands outside CM after he was escorted out by the bouncer. He was questioning if that note was handed to him inside CM before he was removed, and that this note was what lead Theo to Tennyson.


The note information has not been verified or posted by Theos family or admin on the LFTH facebook page.

The person who has posted this comment also has not verified how they obtained this information so unfortunately it shouldn't be posted unless it can be verified by the family or admin for LFTH or backed up with evidence from this person how the information was obtained

 

[mussopossum]

Yes please do that. Is it permitted to post a pic of the post this guy did on the LFTH page

Unfortunately not no as it is not verified information and we are not allowed to post social media user names / accounts and screen shots of comments from user accounts from SM on WS.


TOS
Rules - Social Media - Facebook, Twitter, etc.

 

[Chiatos]

It has not been confirmed that the campfire people were there on the night of the 31st May.

The photos that were recently released are based on uploads to an Instagram account on the 31/5 as per the Podcast.

They were found by people on the Official LFTH Facebook page and it was automatically assumed that the photos were that night due to the date it was posted.

On Instagram you can only see what time the post was made / images uploaded and not when the actual photos were taken.

There is a way to get coding from Instagram accounts (legally) that tells you the time and date a photo was uploaded.

From my investigations and IMOO the photos were not in Theos favor for timing.

The podcast wasn't referring to the insta images, but to general knowledge obtained from surfers and locals they talked to on and near the beach.
The podcaster also made his own verification (kind of) by finding traces of campfires, bottles, etc. on or beside the beach. Apparently Fridays are popular to go to Tallows.
But yes, the podcaster has not been able to verify for that specific Friday, Friday 31st of May.

 

[BusterXP]

Yes, thanks. That is the NSW procedure (and relevant to Theo's case).

I was actually asked about all of the missing persons on the AFP list when I said that they don't all go to inquest.
An inquest is not required in all states.


AFP Website:
When a person is missing under accidental, unexplained, or suspicious circumstances, and there is belief the person may be deceased, the case may be referred to the Coroner. Police may refer the case to the Coroner to ascertain whether there are alternate avenues of enquiry as part of the investigative process.
Some States and Territories are required to report all outstanding missing person cases to the Coroner once they reach a certain date/timeframe.
Once a matter is referred to the Coroner’s Office, the Coroner will decide how the coronial will be conducted. This may include deciding whether an inquest is required or whether the Coroner can make a finding (without inquest) based on information provided by the investigating police.
Coronial process

What I referenced was a secondary source that can't be held as fact but there's a presumption there that relates to the Legislation. The presumption with Missing Persons is that the cause of death or death itself isn't sufficiently disclosed. There's no body. It's assumed.
Even in a situation, for example, when someone falls overboard out at sea the specific cause of death and Causation would need to be dealt with on the balance of probabilities and only the Court can make that determination. Due process.
"

Coroners Act 2009 No 41
Current version for 22 November 2019 to date (accessed 28 November 2019 at 18:52)
Chapter 3 Part 3.2 Division 4 Section 27

27 General circumstances in which inquest required to be held
(cf Coroners Act 1980, s 14B)
(1) An inquest concerning the death or suspected death of a person is required to be held in any of the following circumstances—
(a) if it appears to the coroner concerned that the person died or might have died as a result of homicide (not including suicide),
(b) if the jurisdiction to hold the inquest arises under section 23,
(c) if it appears to the coroner concerned that—
(i) it has not been sufficiently disclosed whether the person has died, or
(ii) the person’s identity and the date and place of the person’s death have not been sufficiently disclosed,
(d) if it appears to the coroner concerned that the manner and cause of the person’s death have not been sufficiently disclosed (unless the case is one in which an inquest has been suspended or continued under section 78).
(2) An inquest is not required to be held under this section if it appears to the coroner concerned that an inquest or other official inquiry concerning the death or suspected death has been held, or is to be held, outside the State.
"
NSW legislation

 

[mussopossum]

The podcast wasn't referring to the insta images, but to general knowledge obtained from surfers and locals they talked to on and near the beach.
The podcaster also made his own verification (kind of) by finding traces of campfires, bottles, etc. on or beside the beach. Apparently Fridays are popular to go to Tallows.
But yes, the podcaster has not been able to verify for that specific Friday, Friday 31st of May.

Sorry If I misunderstood Chiatos,

I know when I went in early August up the end CC in the far corner there were cigarette butts, drink cans and burnt out sticks from a fire. That was the 1/8 from memory. I could tell there had been recent activity there however the other thing is I'm not sure how far the tide comes in and the water.

You could also see that washed up debris was there such as plastic bottles that appeared to have been in the water some time and also seaweed etc.

If there were any parties on the sand towards the water that night everything likely washed away with the tides.

I often wonder if Theo was reported missing on June 1 what they might have found if anything.

 

[mussopossum]

We were just discussing all of this last night in a stream of deliberations that possibly sounded disjointed when read back. What we deduced was that the presumption of death allows formalities to proceed. The coronial investigation and/or inquest is the prize I think as it (should) serve to critique the process and content of the police investigation, and interview all relevant people. Fingers crossed that it brings revelations that lead to closure that is satisfactory for the family.

Off topic (sort of)

Did you ever watch the movie Double Jeopardy?

Still love this film.

Although not factual, Husband staged his own death fled the country cops ruled it as murder and he was dead, wife got locked up for years doing time whilst he was in another country living it up.

She gets out tracks him down and obviously he's not dead

As said off topic for Theo but the talk of Inquest ruling death etc just reminded me the movie.

 

[mussopossum]

Yep. It’s personal as you say, rather than professional. Massively disrespectful to Jubelin, the public and the families.

I have said many, I would love to see Jubelin working on Theos case, obviously not as a cop but just doing private work for the family. Im unsure with his pending court case he would be allowed to?

 

[mussopossum]

Glad he was sighted and approached at least. Sounds like there’s more than one person who can describe him. He could’ve been passing through anyway and simply bolted with all the searching going on around him. Or not.

I just can’t see why anyone would steal a phone and then bother making it looked used by the owner for so long, only to finally conceal it. If you wanted it to look like Theo went to CC, you’d just walk there with GMs tracking it. Given the context, who’d bother continually checking GMs, respond to French messages or watch a favourite tv show final? There’s just no need, or probably time or interest to add that complexity I reckon. It’s too fussy and detailed for no need. JMO

Have to agree, it is a lot hassle just to try make it look like Theo. I still think was Theo but was with someone walking. Maybe that person was from Wake up and they were the ones asking Theo to keep looking up the location etc?

 

[mussopossum]

Hmmmm..... Do you know how cousin Michael could see that Theo’s phone was updating every 15 seconds? I can only see my path taken, not any data on updating and other activity.

Not sure on this one.

Wondering if each time he may have closed his phone to keep walking each time he looked at the maps again it refreshed? TBH no clue ;p

 

[mussopossum]

[QUOTE="mussopossum, post: 15608972,
If they had done something to Theo, I cant get passed why they would still have been residing there, there after. I think it took several days of searching there that they finally left so I would thought they might just A) leave straight away June 1 or B) The second searchers started invading go within a day. Just my thoughts.

Great point about the idyllic location, and if guilty they’d exit immediately.[/QUOTE]

I guess the other thing is we are thinking logically.

If someone with mental health issues (and im not speculating or accusing here) hurt someone they may not think that they have done anything wrong due to mental health issues. That thought just popped into my head.

 

[BusterXP]

Not sure on this one.

Wondering if each time he may have closed his phone to keep walking each time he looked at the maps again it refreshed? TBH no clue ;p

Mention was made that they accessed raw data - possibly via Google Takeout. What was used was mentioned.
That data was used to create a map. The maps we see might not use all of that data.
I also question the update interval - especially if it calls up GPS (it might not and might just use towers). But they have the data.

 

[Rocket333]

Mention was made that they accessed raw data - possibly via Google Takeout. What was used was mentioned.
That data was used to create a map. The maps we see might not use all of that data.
I also question the update interval - especially if it calls up GPS (it might not and might just use towers). But they have the data.

Harpboon said cousin Michael requested it from google and when received it gave more specific detail of the journey. It was apparently mentioned in an early podcast.

 

[BusterXP]

Harpboon said cousin Michael requested it from google and when received it gave more specific detail of the journey. It was apparently mentioned in an early podcast.

I recall a podcast saying that the data dump was made and that they were amazed by the amount of it. Might be wrong though. They had access. I doubt Google would oblige.