Australia - Warriena Wright, 26, dies in balcony fall, Surfers Paradise, Aug 2014 #6

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  • #521
One of the many flow on effects from the Baden-Clay High Court decision is that the speculation outside the confines of the evidence admitted at trial has been clarified. While what you are saying may be possible (I'm not a medical professional so I simply don't know), the Crown has not made that allegation during this trial. Cash QC used the terms "strangled" and "choked" which definitely implies a forceful motion, one presumably intended to cause injury or worse. Dr Little gave evidence that is is very difficult to do without inflicting muscular injury and so on this basis, the contention of the Crown must be rejected.

Snipped your post only for brevity. I just wanted to say thank you for a well spoken, astute and (refreshingly) polite post regarding why the prosecution may (and in places, should?) fail.
 
  • #522
JCB, great post but you have left out a few things:

-Warriena did not have a phone with her on the balcony - there was no guarantee someone would be able to communicate with her from another balcony and certainly not from the street that high up so that voids the option of the expectation for her to communicate with someone else (yes yes, she could yell and scream, but again there is no guarantee someone would have been home/awake/willing to get involved)

-Why not direct her towards the door - he was able to direct her towards the balcony, why choose there? Noone has yet being able to offer a logical explanation for this other than intimidation and entertainment value - he wanted to be in control and he was his own biggest fan by recording it. It had ZERO to do with fear

-any woman (and man for that matter) who has experienced assault knows for sure that there is not always physical evidence on the body of the assault occurring. I totally agree that lack of evidence makes it hard to prove otherwise in a court of law, but I can tell you now that restraining, preventing movement, etc can be just as intimidating and invoke fear without evidence left on the body

-the notion that hitting/restraining a woman under any circumstances is drummed into almost all of us - I think what we see and hear (and some experience) every day discounts your assumption - almost all men do not act this way, and I am pretty certain upbringing is playing a factor in this. Women are respected by many men, but I think I agree with other females on here that it is far from 'almost all'

-what about the vodka? What thoughts on how this may have played a part in Warriena's capacity? He served her this home brew on his premises - responsibility?

Edit:

-Tostee also very clearly knew Warriena was heavily intoxicated - yet he put her in a precarious and dangerous location - locked up, phoneless on a high rise balcony. Her repeated use of the word 'no' should have indicated to him the fragile state she was in. And his response...lock her on the balcony. Hmmmm....
 
  • #523
W O W. i don't know the full extent of this case as I have only just followed it this week on TV and here on WS. BUT OMG he eats pizza after a girl he has spent the last few hours with plummets to her death? This guy seriously has ice running through his veins.
 
  • #524
It's very important to note that only Gable exhibited evidence of an assault, Warriena had no wounds whatsoever that could be attributed to an altercation with Tostee. Yes, Gable is a large man and probably wouldn't have had a great deal of trouble fending off a diminutive female but if he was assaulted, and the evidence suggests he was, it may well have been very confusing for him

.

although it is only one of a myriad of proposals, it is this one that needs to be laid to rest early. . There is no evidence of Gabe being assaulted.. the age of the contusions, the scratches etc on his body was unable to be determined by the medical examiner, but it was not concluded that they were recent. He had a slight, not bleeding, or broken skin, slight scrape on his forehead.

Now.. perhaps we need to define 'being beaten'. .. and I suppose that one would also have to define what consists of a man beating a woman, and a woman beating a man. . What , these days , is considered by men to be a beating, as given by a woman?.. it's a mysterious area. There is plenty of evidence, in court records, in MSN, in TV broadcasts, in what consists of a man beating a woman, and those visions are hard to forget, .. ..

I cannot conceive that any man, anywhere, can seriously contend that Gabe copped a beating from Warriena. . This proposal is not only beyond absurd , it is the puerile argument of the committed sophist, pretending a peculiar equality.
 
  • #525
oddly, Gabe's father saw no indication that Gabe had been 'beaten'..even though it was one of the very first statements Gabe made to his Dad on the phone, setting the scene , and re inforcing that scenario a few times more.

Dad , who is sitting close to Gabe in the car, can see his son up close, says.. 'shall I take you to hospital?.. '.. Gabe says ' noo why?'... Dad says, ' well you might be in shock, you know. '..

no mention of Gabe , you've been beaten . And by a woman, too. .. ........
 
  • #526
  • #527
nowhere on the tape pre the shoving and choking of Warriena does Gabe say, my god I am being beaten.. . and since he has a record going of all this, surely he would leave a message for those who find his body?.. I'm being beaten by Warriena .... 3 hours and nothing from Gabe in respect of anyone beating him up, no word of any fear he has for his life, no cry for help from Gabe, he knows where his neighbors are, she doesn't.. no whimpering, no sounds of her fists on his face, no sounds of her wielding a weapon on his flesh.. no calls by him to police, I'm being beaten!

where is the assault?. the first we all hear about it, is when Gabe gets thru to Dad and he swings straight into his story, and that's the first time Gabe as victim is produced to a wider audience than just Warriena. ... The Crown Prosecutor is going to tear holes in this story big enough to drive a train thru.
 
  • #528
although it is only one of a myriad of proposals, it is this one that needs to be laid to rest early. . There is no evidence of Gabe being assaulted.. the age of the contusions, the scratches etc on his body was unable to be determined by the medical examiner, but it was not concluded that they were recent. He had a slight, not bleeding, or broken skin, slight scrape on his forehead.

Now.. perhaps we need to define 'being beaten'. .. and I suppose that one would also have to define what consists of a man beating a woman, and a woman beating a man. . What , these days , is considered by men to be a beating, as given by a woman?.. it's a mysterious area. There is plenty of evidence, in court records, in MSN, in TV broadcasts, in what consists of a man beating a woman, and those visions are hard to forget, .. ..

I cannot conceive that any man, anywhere, can seriously contend that Gabe copped a beating from Warriena. . This proposal is not only beyond absurd , it is the puerile argument of the committed sophist, pretending a peculiar equality.

I don't think anyone has suggested that Gable was seriously injured during any alleged altercation, he clearly wasn't. It seems to be that Gable used the term "beaten up" (or similar, may be paraphrasing) for dramatic effect when speaking to his father. We are all prone to exaggerate when the unexpected happens, I'm sure Gable is no different.

However to suggest there is no evidence of Gable being assaulted is spurious in my opinion. The doctor examining Gable observed numerous injuries on his body and while none could definitively be aged (as this would be impossible) it was possible to exclude some injuries (which had scabbed for instance) but was not possible to exclude others as being recent (still bleeding/weeping). Given Gable's assertion that Warriena threw rocks at him and the subsequent discovery of Gable's blood and Warriena's DNA on at least 1 particular rock gives a great deal of credence to Gable's claim, indeed it's almost impossible to draw any other conclusion other than he was the victim of an assault.

Most of us have an agenda of some kind when we discuss passionate topics such as this which is only natural but I don't think it's particularly helpful to let our biases cloud our judgement. By all means advocate strongly for your position, but demonstrable falsities only serve to weaken the rest of an argument (which may well be strong). Look at it this way, in the Baden-Clay case Gerard exhibited very obvious wounds on his face. The wounds could not be aged with any degree of accuracy, nor could any medical professionals definitively say they were caused by human fingernails. No testable organic material was found under Allison's fingernails so to use similar logic you'd have to say there was no evidence of an assault or conflict? Clearly that would be preposterous and there is very little doubt that the wounds were the result of Allison's fingernails despite the absence of 100% definite proof. It's a slippery slope if we redefine our opinions to suit the argument at hand.

JCB, great post but you have left out a few things:
-Warriena did not have a phone with her on the balcony - there was no guarantee someone would be able to communicate with her from another balcony and certainly not from the street that high up so that voids the option of the expectation for her to communicate with someone else (yes yes, she could yell and scream, but again there is no guarantee someone would have been home/awake/willing to get involved)
.

It's true that she did not have her phone but in a high density apartment complex in the early hours of the morning it's a statistical certainty that there would have been numerous people well within earshot (as is evidenced by the number of people who heard Gable and Warriena). And while 14 stories up is a significant height, it's quite possible to communicate with people on the ground at that height, particularly at night when ambient noise is at a minimum. There wouldn't have been a crowd of people in the immediate vicinity on the ground but it's central Surfers Paradise, there is always someone milling around.


-Why not direct her towards the door - he was able to direct her towards the balcony, why choose there? Noone has yet being able to offer a logical explanation for this other than intimidation and entertainment value - he wanted to be in control and he was his own biggest fan by recording it. It had ZERO to do with fear

Putting on my defence lawyers hat for a moment, it may well have just been a case of proximity. Warriena had shown a reluctance to leave only moments earlier, the balcony may simply have been the closest and easiest option.

any woman (and man for that matter) who has experienced assault knows for sure that there is not always physical evidence on the body of the assault occurring. I totally agree that lack of evidence makes it hard to prove otherwise in a court of law, but I can tell you now that restraining, preventing movement, etc can be just as intimidating and invoke fear without evidence left on the body

Absolutely agree.

the notion that hitting/restraining a woman under any circumstances is drummed into almost all of us - I think what we see and hear (and some experience) every day discounts your assumption - almost all men do not act this way, and I am pretty certain upbringing is playing a factor in this. Women are respected by many men, but I think I agree with other females on here that it is far from 'almost all'

I certainly don't wish to play down the many serious incidents of domestic violence that do occur but we obviously only ever hear the negative side. No TV network is going to report on "Dave and Mary had a verbal altercation today but both walked away before things got physical". I have no data whatsoever to back up the following claim but it's my opinion that the overwhelming number of disagreements between males and females do not result in any kind of assault. I'm obviously all for domestic violence awareness and prevention initiatives but I also think is counter-productive to overestimate the risks and to stigmatise a large percentage of the population.

what about the vodka? What thoughts on how this may have played a part in Warriena's capacity? He served her this home brew on his premises - responsibility?

By and large the concept of a duty of care is a tort (civil matter) and while we all have something of a duty of care to others, it's more pronounced when one party is in a position of authority and/or trust. In this case it was a casual meeting between 2 consenting adults, the home brew alcohol was not legal but there was no evidence of coercion and Warriena consumed it of her own free will. The legality of the alcohol really isn't an issue in this case and the prosecution wisely did not focus on this as it would detract from more relevant matters.

Tostee also very clearly knew Warriena was heavily intoxicated - yet he put her in a precarious and dangerous location - locked up, phoneless on a high rise balcony. Her repeated use of the word 'no' should have indicated to him the fragile state she was in. And his response...lock her on the balcony. Hmmmm...

As per my reply above, Warriena knowingly indulged in an intoxicating substance, as did Gable. I recall Gable exclaiming that Warriena just kept drinking, I havent gone back and read the trial tweets but was there any evidence that he continually plied her with drinks? In the absence of evidence to the contrary, she could has just as easily been the one pouring and consuming the drinks. Gable was also allegedly intoxicated (albeit he wasn't tested until some time after), it's likely his reasoning was also impaired. Neither party owed the other a duty of care of particular significance. A reasonable person could not expect that isolating someone on a balcony would be dangerous. Upsetting? Yes, but it's only dangerous if the person locked out chooses to make it that way. She had numerous non dangerous options available to her to explore before making the drastic and almost certainly fatal decision to descend, yet she chose not to.

And as a segue, this is one of the reasons I am shocked that the Crown chose to proceed on the indictment of murder. Depending on a number of factors, locking someone on a balcony could amount to deprivation of liberty and while it may not have resulted in a custodial sentence, it's still a very serious charge. While I still have my doubts as to whether a DoL indictment would have been successful, in my opinion it was far more likely than proving murder or manslaughter. The Crown elected to go with an all or nothing strategy when they could have had a better chance at proving culpability, albeit on a reduced charge. As they chose to proceed with murder, that option is now forever lost to them.
 
  • #529
JCB......

Most of us have an agenda of some kind when we discuss passionate topics such as this which is only natural but I don't think it's particularly helpful to let our biases cloud our judgement. By all means advocate strongly for your position, but demonstrable falsities only serve to weaken the rest of an argument (which may well be strong). Look at it this way, in the Baden-Clay case Gerard exhibited very obvious wounds on his face. The wounds could not be aged with any degree of accuracy, nor could any medical professionals definitively say they were caused by human fingernails


ooo* wags fingers.. this is so very naughty.. you know as well as I do, that the second doctor Gerard BC went to that Saturday morning, the rather chippy woman doctor he actually tried to sell a house to as well as get his wounds attended to , was absolutely adamant, totally convinced, and testified without equivocation, that those marks on Gerard WERE FINGERNAIL MARKS and were no possible way caused by a faulty razor..

Now JCB.. I don't think it's particularly helpful to let our biases cloud our judgement. By all means advocate strongly for your position, but demonstrable falsities only serve to weaken the rest of an argument (which may well be strong). So Please stop letting that judgement be clouded by lovingly held bias, thankyou , along with disseminating false information... it is so time consuming!
 
  • #530
On the balcony, no phone, strange city. If you were to yell to and engage a stranger, what would be the outcome? If you yelled to them to call the police, the person behind the door whom you feared, (who had been making allusions to 'going over the balcony' for the last few hours) would still be in the closest proximity to you, and would hear you. I don't think I would have the courage to call out to another. I would feel like a caged animal. Having heard W's restricted airway (we can debate all we like about HOW it was restricted, the fact is it WAS), I would say she was mortally terrified. More mortally terrified than even her screams tell us. I would say that her terror was completely primal.
 
  • #531
JCB......
ooo* wags fingers.. this is so very naughty.. you know as well as I do, that the second doctor Gerard BC went to that Saturday morning, the rather chippy woman doctor he actually tried to sell a house to as well as get his wounds attended to , was absolutely adamant, totally convinced, and testified without equivocation, that those marks on Gerard WERE FINGERNAIL MARKS and were no possible way caused by a faulty razor..

Now JCB.. I don't think it's particularly helpful to let our biases cloud our judgement. By all means advocate strongly for your position, but demonstrable falsities only serve to weaken the rest of an argument (which may well be strong). So Please stop letting that judgement be clouded by lovingly held bias, thankyou , along with disseminating false information... it is so time consuming!

Ummm that would be Dr Beavan, correct? The same Dr Beavan that made absolutely no reference to the possibility of the injuries being caused by fingernail scratches during evidence-in-chief or cross examination, nevermind being unequivocally convinced of their origin?

Pages 26-28

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...aden-Clay-18th-June-Trial-Day-6-Week-2/page26
 
  • #532
Although I have been wrong before (the GBC High Court appeal being one, but I'm far from Robinson Crusoe on that one!) I don't believe there is sufficient evidence to proceed on either charge and it's my belief that you'll either see the Crown withdraw their case later today or a no case submission will be made and a directed verdict will be given by the jury tomorrow morning. At the very least I think tomorrow will see the word murder scrubbed from the indictment, there's no possible way that it can succeed.
Agree entirely. The Judge stepped in of his own volition. Whoever the tweeter was who has been sending 'reports' has gone silent. Judges do not butt into the normal course of Trial procedure without an outcome of their own in mind.
 
  • #533
I don't think anyone has suggested that Gable was seriously injured during any alleged altercation, he clearly wasn't. It seems to be that Gable used the term "beaten up" (or similar, may be paraphrasing) for dramatic effect when speaking to his father. We are all prone to exaggerate when the unexpected happens, I'm sure Gable is no different.

However to suggest there is no evidence of Gable being assaulted is spurious in my opinion. The doctor examining Gable observed numerous injuries on his body and while none could definitively be aged (as this would be impossible) it was possible to exclude some injuries (which had scabbed for instance) but was not possible to exclude others as being recent (still bleeding/weeping). Given Gable's assertion that Warriena threw rocks at him and the subsequent discovery of Gable's blood and Warriena's DNA on at least 1 particular rock gives a great deal of credence to Gable's claim, indeed it's almost impossible to draw any other conclusion other than he was the victim of an assault.

Most of us have an agenda of some kind when we discuss passionate topics such as this which is only natural but I don't think it's particularly helpful to let our biases cloud our judgement. By all means advocate strongly for your position, but demonstrable falsities only serve to weaken the rest of an argument (which may well be strong). Look at it this way, in the Baden-Clay case Gerard exhibited very obvious wounds on his face. The wounds could not be aged with any degree of accuracy, nor could any medical professionals definitively say they were caused by human fingernails. No testable organic material was found under Allison's fingernails so to use similar logic you'd have to say there was no evidence of an assault or conflict? Clearly that would be preposterous and there is very little doubt that the wounds were the result of Allison's fingernails despite the absence of 100% definite proof. It's a slippery slope if we redefine our opinions to suit the argument at hand.



It's true that she did not have her phone but in a high density apartment complex in the early hours of the morning it's a statistical certainty that there would have been numerous people well within earshot (as is evidenced by the number of people who heard Gable and Warriena). And while 14 stories up is a significant height, it's quite possible to communicate with people on the ground at that height, particularly at night when ambient noise is at a minimum. There wouldn't have been a crowd of people in the immediate vicinity on the ground but it's central Surfers Paradise, there is always someone milling around.

I don't think Tostee was calculating statistical certainties that night lol (Sorry, I jest!). So in reference to your comments on manslaughter and reasonable expectations if you were to lock someone on your balcony... are you saying that the decision to lock Warriena on the balcony, intoxicated, clearly distressed, because there was a high chance someone would hear her screaming for help, would fit with your expectations, therefore not make you responsible if she came to harm? Just want to make sure I understand what you are saying and consider the statistical possibility that Warriena could in fact come to significant harm based on the lack of options available to her and her state.


Putting on my defence lawyers hat for a moment, it may well have just been a case of proximity. Warriena had shown a reluctance to leave only moments earlier, the balcony may simply have been the closest and easiest option.

Would that not be for Tostee to exit the apartment, maybe even leave the door ajar so he could monitor her, whilst he called police? Or if he was so very scared of his wellbeing, exit the apartment altogether and call police? That apartment is not big, it would have made no difference to his safety if he escorted her to the main door or the balcony. There are other factors you are overlooking here, namely his commentary of how to manipulate a woman drunk on his home brew



Absolutely agree.



I certainly don't wish to play down the many serious incidents of domestic violence that do occur but we obviously only ever hear the negative side. No TV network is going to report on "Dave and Mary had a verbal altercation today but both walked away before things got physical". I have no data whatsoever to back up the following claim but it's my opinion that the overwhelming number of disagreements between males and females do not result in any kind of assault. I'm obviously all for domestic violence awareness and prevention initiatives but I also think is counter-productive to overestimate the risks and to stigmatise a large percentage of the population.



By and large the concept of a duty of care is a tort (civil matter) and while we all have something of a duty of care to others, it's more pronounced when one party is in a position of authority and/or trust. In this case it was a casual meeting between 2 consenting adults, the home brew alcohol was not legal but there was no evidence of coercion and Warriena consumed it of her own free will. The legality of the alcohol really isn't an issue in this case and the prosecution wisely did not focus on this as it would detract from more relevant matters.
I was referring to this mainly for a likely future civil case - if someone consented to drinking poison it would not make it ok because coercion wasn't used. We have no idea the toxicity of the vodka, if it was contaminated because he is not a licensed brewer, if it may potentially have brought on some psychotic type symptoms in Warriena. I mentioned the case recently about the young men that died from drinking home brew...voluntarily. Charges were laid in that case.


As per my reply above, Warriena knowingly indulged in an intoxicating substance, as did Gable. I recall Gable exclaiming that Warriena just kept drinking, I havent gone back and read the trial tweets but was there any evidence that he continually plied her with drinks? In the absence of evidence to the contrary, she could has just as easily been the one pouring and consuming the drinks. Gable was also allegedly intoxicated (albeit he wasn't tested until some time after), it's likely his reasoning was also impaired. Neither party owed the other a duty of care of particular significance. A reasonable person could not expect that isolating someone on a balcony would be dangerous. Upsetting? Yes, but it's only dangerous if the person locked out chooses to make it that way. She had numerous non dangerous options available to her to explore before making the drastic and almost certainly fatal decision to descend, yet she chose not to.
You must never have been a woman experiencing fear and intimidation before - she did not have numerous non-dangerous options available to her.


And as a segue, this is one of the reasons I am shocked that the Crown chose to proceed on the indictment of murder. Depending on a number of factors, locking someone on a balcony could amount to deprivation of liberty and while it may not have resulted in a custodial sentence, it's still a very serious charge. While I still have my doubts as to whether a DoL indictment would have been successful, in my opinion it was far more likely than proving murder or manslaughter. The Crown elected to go with an all or nothing strategy when they could have had a better chance at proving culpability, albeit on a reduced charge. As they chose to proceed with murder, that option is now forever lost to them.
.....
 
  • #534
He phoned Warriena's mobile phone from his dad's car. If he knew she was deceased at the time, why would he phone? Who does that?
Reminds me of one Jodi Arias. Phoned and left messages on Travis Alexander's phone after murdering him. Trying to make it look like she knew nothing of his demise...
 
  • #535
I don't have a lot of curiousity about those who have chosen to worship and adore Gabe.. the ones who can see logic in everything Gabe does and says, who kind of like the idea of women, any woman being hurled off a 14th floor balcony, a woman who drinks, and indulges in ill mannered sexual activity, putting Gabe in danger... I somehow think they don't have all the necessary cogs whirring away in any synchronised manner, and nothing is going to alter that...
I love you! [emoji7] I'm so far behind, but this thread is highly addictive. I can't agree more with this post!
 
  • #536
ROLLING COVERAGE: WARRIENA Wright’s mother has expressed her anger over the public airing of audio recordings of her daughter’s final moments outside the Gable Tostee murder trial.

1hr ago

Editor on duty: Kate Kyriacou, Melanie Petrinec, Greg Stolze


In a statement read by a friend, Merzabeth Tagpuno Wright, (pictured below) said she had not wanted her daughter's screams to be aired publicly.
"I did not want to hear my daughter screaming no, no, no," Fiona Garvin, on behalf of Ms Tagpuno Wright, said.
"I did not want to remember her like that. The media have hurt me so bad.
"When this is over, I will go back to New Zealand and I want to be left alone.
"Please respect my privacy - I will not talk to anybody"Just leave our family in peace. No matter how this goes, I just want to go home."


- Kate Kyriacou



http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/day-4-of-gable-tostee-trial-for-murder-of-warriena-wright/news-story/70bf67a00289317e98c757e642329e23
 
  • #537
Ummm that would be Dr Beavan, correct? The same Dr Beavan that made absolutely no reference to the possibility of the injuries being caused by fingernail scratches during evidence-in-chief or cross examination, nevermind being unequivocally convinced of their origin?

Pages 26-28

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...aden-Clay-18th-June-Trial-Day-6-Week-2/page26

Dr Beavan may have been advised not to diagnose on the stand, may have not been asked a question that gave her the opportunity to diagnose, or she may have overlooked stating it given the line of questioning.
 
  • #538
Reminds me of one Jodi Arias. Phoned and left messages on Travis Alexander's phone after murdering him. Trying to make it look like she knew nothing of his demise...
I agree, I think also this was his thought. Ring her phone while he's supposedly out getting pizza, Warriena fell to her death without him being there. This makes him look so guilty, his actions speak very loudly, imo.
 
  • #539
On the balcony, no phone, strange city. If you were to yell to and engage a stranger, what would be the outcome? If you yelled to them to call the police, the person behind the door whom you feared, (who had been making allusions to 'going over the balcony' for the last few hours) would still be in the closest proximity to you, and would hear you. I don't think I would have the courage to call out to another. I would feel like a caged animal. Having heard W's restricted airway (we can debate all we like about HOW it was restricted, the fact is it WAS), I would say she was mortally terrified. More mortally terrified than even her screams tell us. I would say that her terror was completely primal.

Exactly right, we could say the same for GT. GT could have alerted his neighbours, he knew his apartment, his building, his city. But no, the young woman visiting has all the options and he had none, lol. GT couldn't release Warriena because she might contact the police! He KNEW he was in trouble and had done the wrong thing. GT is a control freak, he had to contain the situation which meant not letting Warriena leave. JMO
 
  • #540
Dr Beavan may have been advised not to diagnose on the stand, may have not been asked a question that gave her the opportunity to diagnose, or she may have overlooked stating it given the line of questioning.

I couldn't speculate on the reasoning for her omitting any reference to potential fingernail infliction (outside of not being a forensic pathologist), it was just a rebuttal to a dressing down I received from the quoted member. Has no bearing on this case and in the future I'll endeavour to ignore such taunts so as not to derail discussions.

Agree entirely. The Judge stepped in of his own volition. Whoever the tweeter was who has been sending 'reports' has gone silent. Judges do not butt into the normal course of Trial procedure without an outcome of their own in mind.

Yes, I don't think tomorrow will bring good news for those hanging out for a murder conviction. Unsolicited bench intervention at this point certainly isn't normal practice, particularly when the trial has been totally uncontroversial (in a legal sense) to this point.
 
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