Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #71

[Chrissy74]

I was thinking along the lines of a “snap” behaviour…. Losing control for an instant, rather than prolonged sustained abuse ….. but with possible dire consequences……????? Would a history of such “possible snaps “ in loss of control predispose one to longer more sustained periods as you describe it???

I don’t want this to be the answer for William, that his demise was from someone who was to love and care for him and who he would have had trust in ….but we need to consider the possibility…..

I was thinking the same. There is a huge difference between the problematic behaviour of a pre-teen, and the problematic behaviour of a 3 year old. When 3 year olds act out, you pick them up and take them to where they need to be.

Of course there’s a difference in a parents response to a child/toddler than to a preteen. Their level of understanding is at opposite ends. But a parents /adults level of understanding shouldn’t waver . Consequences may be dealt with differently but should NEVER EVER include physical violence EVER

 

[SouthAussie]

But we don't know that the child had any problematic behaviour. This is the defence of a person who has been accused of abuse.

It is in the police report that The Australian has viewed. It is in a psychologist's report tendered as part of the appeal to lift the suppression order (whatever that means).

The police said that the FP were trying to deal with problematic behaviour. Presumably, the police know what the problematic behaviour was.

It says ..... police will allege <FM> and <FD> had been “attempting to intervene in the (alleged) victim’s problematic behaviour".

.

 

[inkpink]

Also, wasn't there photo's going around showing the FM with a bruised foot?

 

[Chrissy74]

maybe the sister didnt threaten she would do that, they could have been arguing about william or a memory of william and his nappy situation drama on that morning?

maybe the sister didnt threaten she would do that, they could have been arguing about william or a memory of william and his nappy situation drama on that morning?

Yes bear bear and one could also say that even if a child/teen did threaten to do such a thing the parent “as the adult” should respond in a way for example “if you do defacate on the floor then you will be the one cleaning it up as apposed to responding as if talking to dog. Because when I read the words “rub your face in it” I think of the days when people did that sort of thing to toilet train there dogs. But thankfully we know better so we do better

 

[SouthAussie]

Consequences may be dealt with differently but should NEVER EVER include physical violence EVER

Just to be REALLY clear here. No-one is trying to excuse physical violence.

Some are just trying to understand the complete situation. With limited information.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

ETA: Please change my own presumption of 'sister' to what the article actually says - which is the 'child' or the 'girl'.


For those who can't read The Australian article (I am sure the DM will have their own version pretty soon), it says that the sister was given 44 minutes Time Out ... it doesn't say what the Time Out was for. Presumably they are snipping parts from the police report - or maybe have been given a redacted police report.

She appears to have not wanted to stay in TO, and FD made her stay by grabbing her about the neck (shoulders?). Made her sit back down.

The police report says that the FP were “attempting to intervene in the (alleged) victim’s problematic behaviour”.

There must have been a bit of to-and-fro going on imo, as the FM kicked sister 'causing her bruising and pain'.
Sister said she hated them.

Sister must have said she would defecate on the floor imo, as FM told her if she did that she would get her face rubbed in it.

It says at some point FM hit her with a wooden spoon, but it is not clear when.

The stalking and intimidation relate to the assault charges, as far as I can tell.

The sister told her teacher that she was afraid to go home. Presumably, the teacher did a mandatory report.

Maybe once the case is heard they will say what the indcident was about. (My thought)

Shock abuse claims in Tyrrell case

Police will allege the foster mother of missing boy William Tyrrell kicked a girl, causing her pain and bruising, and suggested if the child were to defecate on the floor she would rub her face in it.

amp.theaustralian.com.au

Omg, FM comes from the old school type of parenting. I knew a lady from work around 25 years ago, who kept a wooden spoon in her large handbag while visiting our place, anytime her sons stepped out of line, she’d show them the spoon. She swore it was effective in controlling their naughtiness, they certainly took notice! She had 3 boys under 6 years of age. I didn’t agree with it then, and I don’t now, but it was very prevalent and accepted discipline with parents in my age group, which FM is.
I’m also not keen on timeouts if your child gets too emotionally worked up. I tried once with my son, and he became hysterical and nearly kicked the door in, it wasn’t worth destroying his spirit to gain very little ground. It does work for some it seems, my 2 girls didn’t need it, but imo, if the child doesn’t understand the concept, it shouldn’t be applied, there are gentler ways, and sometimes it’s better to let it go. JMO.

 

[Chrissy74]

Just to be REALLY clear here. No-one is trying to excuse physical violence.

Some are just trying to understand the complete situation.

Sure.. but how can any of us try to get a full and true understanding of the complete situation when we don’t have the full details of exactly what happened. But what information we do have is very clear and very disturbing. And even if we had all the information to fill in blanks my response will still be the same. I have 3 children my eldest has just gone through the teen stage and I know first hand how difficult it can be for parents during this stage but I also know how difficult it is for the child who’s going through a serge of hormones their bodies are changing their moods are all over the place and it requires a lot of patience and understanding and empathy. Sorry but I can’t excuse her behaviour

 

[SouthAussie]

Sure.. but how can any of us try to get a full and true understanding of the complete situation when we don’t have the full details of exactly what happened. But what information we do have is very clear and very disturbing. And even if we had all the information to fill in blanks my response will still be the same. I have 3 children my eldest has just gone through the teen stage and I know first hand how difficult it can be for parents during this stage but I also know how difficult it is for the child who’s going through a serge of hormones their bodies are changing their moods are all over the place and it requires a lot of patience and understanding and empathy. Sorry but I can’t excuse her behaviour

Again, no-one is excusing the behaviour.

Perhaps it is time to let that impression go? And move on.

As Prime just said, it does sound like old school parenting.

 

[JLZ]

I was thinking along the lines of a “snap” behaviour…. Losing control for an instant, rather than prolonged sustained abuse ….. but with possible dire consequences……????? Would a history of such “possible snaps “ in loss of control predispose one to longer more sustained periods as you describe it???

I don’t want this to be the answer for William, that his demise was from someone who was to love and care for him and who he would have had trust in ….but we need to consider the possibility…..

imo

I don't in general subscribe to the 'snap' theory. I understand it's a principle of anger management therapy that the destructive behaviour isn't due to a loss of control, but to a taking of control through an unleashing of rage. The anger is real and not to be dismissed, but the behaviour is a separate thing. You spoke earlier of not knowing what goes on behind closed doors; well if it was uncontrollable, why wouldn't it happen in public? I think perhaps FFC would have held herself to a higher standard of behaviour in relation to someone so obviously vulnerable as a little little boy.

I think you were making the point a few days ago that the estimated time of disappearance 10:05-10:15 was based on believing the foster family did not disappear William; that they were truthful to the best of their ability. If the time moves back to 9:45, would that make a difference to how we understand the possibilities of a cover-up? My main objection to the accident/cover-up, or not-an-accident/cover-up scenario is the time problem. FFC's abuse charges don't change my sense of what is logistically possible.

 

[Chrissy74]

Again, no-one is excusing the behaviour.

Perhaps it is time to let that impression go? And move on.

You’re right.. perhaps it is

 

[SLouTh]

Which leads us back to the same old question ... how long has FM had mental difficulties?

If they are more recent they could lead to a (more recent) loss of control. If they have been lifelong or since early adulthood, then they would need to be considered by the Coroner when looking at the whole picture.

imo

In my understanding, if the Mental Health problems were long term, but the approval for fostering was given, it usually comes with the proviso that that the foster parent regularly consults a psychiatrist to discuss any issues with managing children….. that is a Psychiatrist, and not a psychologist….

An agreement like this is put in place by FACS (in Qld it is) prior to fostering, and is designed to pre- empt any problems or situations that may arise at home….. and strategies on how to deal with them …

FACS also rely on information given to them in an approval application document and interview to be honest and truthful, and the onus is on the individual to be honest and declare that they have an underlying mental health issue ….Did FM ever declare her mental health was an issue???

I am not here to argue the pros and cons of the Foster Care System, or any failings, but there should have been systems in place, to prevent an issue like this one being alleged, if it was known that FM had a long term mental health issue ….

I also think that regardless of wether a mental health issue was underlying, there should have been Psychiatrist involvement for the entire Foster Family after William’s disappearance….. as dealing with that would be enough of a stress to cause such issues… IMO ….Was an arrangement put in place by FACS after William went missing ??

There are still many questions and answers required to know the answer to your post SA …. And a lot of looking back at records over the last 7plus years…

imo

 

[Shadow@light]

Checked online DM so far they not printed the article about William 's Foster Mother and details about the charges.

 

[SouthAussie]

In my understanding, if the Mental Health problems were long term, but the approval for fostering was given, it usually comes with the proviso that that the foster parent regularly consults a psychiatrist to discuss any issues with managing children….. that is a Psychiatrist, and not a psychologist….

An agreement like this is put in place by FACS (in Qld it is) prior to fostering, and is designed to pre- empt any problems or situations that may arise at home….. and strategies on how to deal with them …

FACS also rely on information given to them in an approval application document and interview to be honest and truthful, and the onus is on the individual to be honest and declare that they have an underlying mental health issue ….Did FM ever declare her mental health was an issue???

I am not here to argue the pros and cons of the Foster Care System, or any failings, but there should have been systems in place, to prevent an issue like this one being alleged, if it was known that FM had a long term mental health issue ….

I also think that regardless of wether a mental health issue was underlying, there should have been Psychiatrist involvement for the entire Foster Family after William’s disappearance….. as dealing with that would be enough of a stress to cause such issues… IMO ….Was an arrangement put in place by FACS after William went missing ??

There are still many questions and answers required to know the answer to your post SA …. And a lot of looking back at records over the last 7plus years…

imo

I think there has been an indication that counselling happened (at least for the sister). I seem to recall an article that stated such. Don't know about the foster parents.

I don't know what to make of the psychologist's report that was tendered in trying to lift the suppression order. The report that said that the police will allege (in their police facts from Nov 2021) that the FP were trying to intervene in problematic behaviour. What psychologist?

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Omg, FM comes from the old school type of parenting. I knew a lady from work around 25 years ago, who kept a wooden spoon in her large handbag while visiting our place, anytime her sons stepped out of line, she’d show them the spoon. She swore it was effective in controlling their naughtiness, they certainly took notice! She had 3 boys under 6 years of age. I didn’t agree with it then, and I don’t now, but it was very prevalent and accepted discipline with parents in my age group, which FM is.
I’m also not keen on timeouts if your child gets too emotionally worked up. I tried once with my son, and he became hysterical and nearly kicked the door in, it wasn’t worth destroying his spirit to gain very little ground. It does work for some it seems, my 2 girls didn’t need it, but imo, if the child doesn’t understand the concept, it shouldn’t be applied, there are gentler ways, and sometimes it’s better to let it go. JMO.

That's just abuse, nobody uses a wooden spoon anymore, that was antiquated in the 70's .. SD came up in the 80's she's off her head for thinking that is anywhere near OK!

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Also, with the whole defecating on the floor thing .. how did that even come about? Was the child locked in a bedroom as a time out like punishment, and wanted to come out to use the bathroom, and said something along the lines of 'OK I'll just poop on the floor then!' or similar? Sounds like a lot of dysfunction was going on hey? And this is meant to be foster care, IE a respite from a bad family situation. Yet again the system fails the most vulnerable. Poor kids

 

[SLouTh]

If the time moves back to 9:45, would that make a difference to how we understand the possibilities of a cover-up? My main objection to the accident/cover-up, or not-an-accident/cover-up scenario is the time problem.

Personally,I think the time line needs to be looked at, in minute detail, from at least 9:37am to the time of the 000 call at 10:56am …..

That is on the proviso that the photos were taken then, as has been reported in the media……

However, if the Coroner reports this media detail is incorrect… then the timeline widens astronomically ….imo

I can’t get my head around the logistics of an accident and cover up including moving a body in 25minutes flat either…. (from Beacrofts time of 10:05 to FF Siri message at 10:30)

Whatever the “truth” about what happened to William may be, it will fit the true timeline…. Whatever that may actually be???

imo (I hope that is what you meant JZL??? Or am I on a different wavelength?)

 

[JLZ]

In my understanding, if the Mental Health problems were long term, but the approval for fostering was given, it usually comes with the proviso that that the foster parent regularly consults a psychiatrist to discuss any issues with managing children….. that is a Psychiatrist, and not a psychologist….

An agreement like this is put in place by FACS (in Qld it is) prior to fostering, and is designed to pre- empt any problems or situations that may arise at home….. and strategies on how to deal with them …

FACS also rely on information given to them in an approval application document and interview to be honest and truthful, and the onus is on the individual to be honest and declare that they have an underlying mental health issue ….Did FM ever declare her mental health was an issue???

I am not here to argue the pros and cons of the Foster Care System, or any failings, but there should have been systems in place, to prevent an issue like this one being alleged, if it was known that FM had a long term mental health issue ….

I also think that regardless of wether a mental health issue was underlying, there should have been Psychiatrist involvement for the entire Foster Family after William’s disappearance….. as dealing with that would be enough of a stress to cause such issues… IMO ….Was an arrangement put in place by FACS after William went missing ??

There are still many questions and answers required to know the answer to your post SA …. And a lot of looking back at records over the last 7plus years…

imo

In my small experience of psychiatrists they're very little help with the skills of living. Psychologist or social worker involvement would be essential IMO; a psychiatrist only if medication were thought desirable and the GP wasn't confident with the case.

 

[Shadow@light]

I think there has been an indication that counselling happened (at least for the sister). I seem to recall an article that stated such. Don't know about the foster parents.

True South Aussie, even after all these years both families have been under a lot of stress, even the bio parents have been in trouble with the law. There is a breaking point for the FP as well.
IMO with my children going to their bedrooms to calm down when there has been disagreement etc and yes they would be saying "I need to go to toilet sometimes it is just an excuse but I would ask them to wait a few minutes if they ask again I give they the trust to go to the toilet. but they never threaten even my child on the Autism Spectrum has never threated to wee or poo on the floor.
If there was kick or attempted kick( which is wrong for anyone to do) but it could been a very wrong reaction to the fact a 12 girl/child pulled their pants down to make motion of doing a call of nature on the floor.

 

[JLZ]

Personally,I think the time line needs to be looked at, in minute detail, from at least 9:37am to the time of the 000 call at 10:56am …..

That is on the proviso that the photos were taken then, as has been reported in the media……

However, if the Coroner reports this media detail is incorrect… then the timeline widens astronomically ….imo

I can’t get my head around the logistics of an accident and cover up including moving a body in 25minutes flat either…. (from Beacrofts time of 10:05 to FF Siri message at 10:30)

Whatever the “truth” about what happened to William may be, it will fit the true timeline…. Whatever that may actually be???

imo (I hope that is what you meant JZL??? Or am I on a different wavelength?)

Yes that's what I meant. And I would be so glad of a "true timeline". I begin to think the coroner has shelved this indefinitely.

 

[seekingjustice**]

I found reading the entire Australian article quite shocking and filled me with sadness about the entire situation …. And at the same time wondering how did it get to that before something was done about it? How did no one see the warning signs???

All of the allegations are awful, but physically kicking a child is a very low act imo … it is deplorable behaviour …. Something that I would associate with “thugs in a street brawl” … JMO

It’s a sad world out there and seems to be getting worse by the day …. Is there no end to human depravity????

So I guess you are correct and “nothing should surprise me“ these days, but it does ….

imo

Completely agree it's deplorable behaviour and even worse because it was both the foster carers abusing her at the same time. I can imagine living in that type of environment with adults that are unable to control their own behaviors of concern, would be very traumatic for the child.