Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #72

[Couldbe]

Did William Tyrrell disappear earlier than reported? Why CCTV could prove crucial | Daily Mail Online

Confirmed time RD left ktc 9:43am
RD saw mfc in his yard calling out for W around 10:45am
Mfc text to SD was at 10:35.
Mfc home by 10:40 latest n calling out for W immediately
RD lived less than 300mtrs away from gm house and could hear mfc calling out

According to this Article, it appears there were two texts!:
The vital minutes which could answer what REALLY happened to William

“Police estimated William vanished between 10.05am and 10.20am.

About 10.30am, William's foster father texted his wife to say he was returning home after buying newspapers nearby.

The foster mother said she saw the text after she had started looking for William.”

NOTE: This Article continues to say that there was ANOTHER TEXT!:

BMM “Another text from her husband told her he would be 'home in five' and she said she ran outside to see if he had William with him.”

At 10.57am, shortly after the pair began looking again, the foster mother called police and said they had been looking for him for '15 or 20 minutes'.

 

[deugirtni]

I've listened to MFC's walkthrough again. After 7 minutes, it cuts out at the interesting point of whom he saw where. However, he did go into some yards, possibly Mr RD's from the direction he is pointing. The timing is confusing. He says he first went to the Millers' and spent 90 minutes systematically searching the blocks of that corner, but I also get the impression he ran through a number of other yards within that time. But at 10:45 . . . as early as that?

Also, MFC was seen by Constable Chris Rowley, the first officer on the scene, coming out of FGM's bathroom, sometime soon after his arrival at IIRC, 11:06am?

 

[deugirtni]

Well JLZ the coroners last words at the inquest were for the last photos of WT to be further investigated due to RD statements and the timeline.

Ummmm I am not sure this accurate … The last sitting of the Inquest was 8 October 2020, when the Coroner heard Witness Impact Statements …

The photo investigation was ordered in 2019….


The Australian reported that an application to have the apparent time stamp discrepancy on the photo examined was made in court not long before the inquest was suddenly adjourned.

https://www.news.com.au/national/courts-law/mystery-over-william-tyrrell-photo-throws-doubt-on-timeline-of-boys-disappearance/news-story/219eb525eb0e76070785485909574131

Edit as link wasn’t working …

Not to mention that the last photos of WT were ordered by the coroner to be independently forensically examined by an independent source due to the two hour time discrepancies noted on the photos in the brief of evidence submitted to the coroner re the inquest. It was nothing to do with Mr RD's statements, AFAIK?

 

[Chrissy74]

Just a little something I thought I’d share for those members who were adamant Ffc and fgm went and knocked on LH door the morning W disappeared. This is what I call “straight from the horses mouth”

AUDIO_D&ST_3: William Tyrrell: How the three-year-old vanished in a perfect storm of bad luck

Pay attention to the time LH mentions referring to the knock on the door. Maybe this adds a little clarity as to what time Ffc took that drive up the Barak creek rd that day

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Sleuthing of witnesses is not allowed. Members may discuss witness testimony and what is said in MSM about them or what they themselves say in MSM.

Posting or discussing information about people seen on Google Streetview is not appropriate. If members wish to discuss in PM, that's one thing, but on a public thread is not allowed.

 

[deugirtni]

Just a little something I thought I’d share for those members who were adamant Ffc and fgm went and knocked on LH door the morning W disappeared. This is what I call “straight from the horses mouth”

AUDIO_D&ST_3: William Tyrrell: How the three-year-old vanished in a perfect storm of bad luck

Pay attention to the time LH mentions referring to the knock on the door. Maybe this adds a little clarity as to what time Ffc took that drive up the Barak creek rd that day

Thank you. Also adds clarity to that one news article (Women's Day?) in which the reporter wrote that it was FM and FGM who came to her door. ????? (note: the part about LH starts around 5:25)

 

[JLZ]

According to this Article, it appears there were two texts!:
The vital minutes which could answer what REALLY happened to William

“Police estimated William vanished between 10.05am and 10.20am.

About 10.30am, William's foster father texted his wife to say he was returning home after buying newspapers nearby.

The foster mother said she saw the text after she had started looking for William.”

NOTE: This Article continues to say that there was ANOTHER TEXT!:

BMM “Another text from her husband told her he would be 'home in five' and she said she ran outside to see if he had William with him.”

At 10.57am, shortly after the pair began looking again, the foster mother called police and said they had been looking for him for '15 or 20 minutes'.

"Another text" is definitely odd. I wonder if the language was cut and pasted from another article where some other texts, perhaps the deleted ones, had been under discussion. The text after buying newspapers was sent at 10:30; if there was another one sent saying 'back in 5' and FFC received it just before MFC's return, it's not talking about a return at 10:35 because that's already been announced by the 10:30 text. Was he later than he expected? Or, again, were there two returns?

Let's look at the sequence that writer is presenting:

* FFC is sitting talking with her mother, she can hear William as if he's just around the corner, and then she's thinking she hasn't heard him for a little while

* So she walks around the corner but still can't see or hear him, calls out

* She tells her mother she can't see William

* She searches some more including inside and underneath the house

* She asks a neighbour [AMS] to help

* She drives down the road looking for him, encounters a truck driver, returns

* She reads a text from her husband saying 'back in five' and runs outside to meet him

The only problem I have with this is that I understand AMS could hear a man calling out for William when she was first drawn in. I suppose she might be wrong about when she first heard him, or I might be misunderstanding what she said. Or, just to cover the possibilities, was there another male present who took part in the search before MFC got home? (The asterisked sequence is different from FGM's story but I personally don't count that as a problem.)

 

[SouthAussie]

"Another text" is definitely odd. I wonder if the language was cut and pasted from another article where some other texts, perhaps the deleted ones, had been under discussion.

RSBM

I think it is an error. The journo first says that FM received the text after she had searched for a while.
The article then goes on to explain her searching, and says 'another' text was received after that.
Same, same.

One thing I have noticed is that the journos who know a lot about the case are all moving on. William has been gone for so long now. CO has moved on to an editor position, LH is taking a break, DB moved to the UK (and helped Jubes write his book), JFY has moved on to be chief reporter, EP went on to investigate another case and wrote a book ....

Who we seem to be hearing from now are journos who are not as familiar with the case. imo

 

[JLZ]

I think it is an error. The journo first says that FM received the text after she had searched for a while.
The article then goes on to explain her searching, and says 'another' text was received after that.
Same, same.

One thing I have noticed is that the journos who know a lot about the case are all moving on. William has been gone for so long now. CO has moved on to an editor position, LH is taking a break, DB moved to the UK (and helped Jubes write his book), JFY has moved on to be chief reporter, EP went on to investigate another case and wrote a book ....

Who we seem to be hearing from now are journos who are not as familiar with the case. imo

New journos, be not discouraged. Give it seven years like we have and you'll know less than when you started.

 

[JLZ]

Why do we think it was around 10:40 when FFC picked up AMS? Is that based on someone's idea that it was shortly after MFC got home? Did AMS say she noticed the time on her watch?

 

[JLZ]

Deugirtni said:

I don't think we can discount everyone else's testimony due to it not matching FM's testimony, imho. FGM seemed pretty lucid to me, in the clip shown of her 'walk-through' interview. AMS testified she heard a man calling for W at the time when FM first approached her.. drsleuth reported that the man was MFC (drsleuth had attended the inquest that day). When FM called 000 at 10:56am, IIRC she said they'd been looking for him for 15 or 20 minutes.. so 10:56 less say 20 minutes, matches the time when MFC said he returned after texting his wife at 10:30am saying 'home in 5'.. 10:35. I believe FM said he'd only been missing for about 5 minutes before they started searching, so it seems W disappeared right when MFC texted FFC to say 'home in five', (or whatever wording he used). To me, it seems that FFC did not know W was missing until MFC arrived home and she met him at whichever driveway he parked in (I've heard both ways, the carport driveway and the garage driveway). MFC said FGM was still sitting on the deck... so it seemed like she didn't know W was missing either until MFC's return. (imho) So, imho again, it seems that if MFC was already back and calling for W by the time FFC approached AMS, it had to have been around 10:35-10:40am?This is a timeline from our esteemed member frogwell, who also attended the inquest, and drsleuth's additions to it :https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...dall-nsw-12-sept-2014-40.433469/post-14946115

Now this is me JLZ again:

BBM, I'm not discounting anything due to it not matching FFC's testimony, but I'm not prepared to take FGM's testimony as an obstacle; just my opinion, not trying to convince anyone on that. I'm trying out a timeline where William was noticed to have disappeared rather earlier, even before 10:00 if you like, which if anything accords better with FGM's account. From what you say it is only an inference, not AMS's evidence, that FFC first encountered AMS at 10:40. LH said she saw SK on his mower when she returned at around 10:35 and he observed police arrive at about 11:05. But AMS didn't see him when she first went looking, by inference around 10:40 or 10:45, and SK said that the first he knew of the business was that he saw a police car arrive and someone came running along the street. While I was guessing that SK intermitted his mowing between LH's return and police arrival, another explanation might be that FFC involved AMS before SK had started mowing; before LH's return around 10:35. In that case, if MFC returned home at 10:35, either AMS didn't hear a man calling out for William when she first connected with FFC, or if she did the man wasn't MFC.

 

[Couldbe]

IMO what I find interesting iirc their are witnesses saying they heard children playing, their are witnesses saying they heard MFC callimg out for WT, but noone hearing FFC looking for WT, even FGM says nothing about hearing her and has to go investigate where they have gone

Could those young children that were heard playing have been Lydene Heslop's children who she has said were playing in her own yard?

JMO - We can go 'round and round' trying to piece the timed events together. It seems that there is so much that can be disputed in own posts here on Websleuths ....e.g Pointing to the Journalists reporting in a haphazard fashion .... let alone trying to adhere to varied stated timelines.

 

[JLZ]

Chrissy, I couldn't find a reference to LH in the link you posted and then deleted, but I noticed a lot more detail about Mr RD's description of assumed-to-be MFC entering his yard. In Mr RD's first statement of September 2014 he said this happened before lunchtime on the Saturday or Sunday, not the Friday. It appears that he first talked about the time of 10:45 on the Friday years later when trying to explain why he thought he had left the tennis club at 10:15.

It's much more satisfactory in terms of fitting with MFC's walkthrough if MFC didn't visit Mr RD until Saturday or Sunday.

Maybe others have already said the above and I'm slow on the uptake at present.

 

[Couldbe]

I think it is an error. The journo first says that FM received the text after she had searched for a while.
The article then goes on to explain her searching, and says 'another' text was received after that.
Same, same.

One thing I have noticed is that the journos who know a lot about the case are all moving on. William has been gone for so long now. CO has moved on to an editor position, LH is taking a break, DB moved to the UK (and helped Jubes write his book), JFY has moved on to be chief reporter, EP went on to investigate another case and wrote a book ....

Who we seem to be hearing from now are journos who are not as familiar with the case. imo

……… In trying to pin down what time MFC ACTUALLY LEFT to go for his business meeting, I note the following time:

Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #52

“08:40 : MFC leaves for Lakewood( from CO book suggested he left around 08:40 by CCTV @ the tennis club )”



…….. Then it has been reported that he left at 9.30 am:



William Tyrrell: how new evidence revived the case and triggered a fresh search effort
“William’s foster father had left the home at 9.30am to drive out of the town to find better mobile reception for a Skype call and to fill a script at a chemist – actions which have been verified by police.

By the time he arrived back at the home, his wife has said she had already searched the house and garden for him, and had then taken her mother’s car and driven it down Benaroon Drive looking for him, before returning, figuring he couldn’t have travelled that far from the home.”

Question 1: Did MFC leave the first time at 8.40 am AND THEN he returned (Sending a text message to FFC saying he was returning)?

Question 2: Did MFC then send another text message to FFC when he said “Home in five” … thereby arriving back at 10.35 am?

 

[Megnut]

……… In trying to pin down what time MFC ACTUALLY LEFT to go for his business meeting, I note the following time:

Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #52

“08:40 : MFC leaves for Lakewood( from CO book suggested he left around 08:40 by CCTV @ the tennis club )”



…….. Then it has been reported that he left at 9.30 am:



William Tyrrell: how new evidence revived the case and triggered a fresh search effort
“William’s foster father had left the home at 9.30am to drive out of the town to find better mobile reception for a Skype call and to fill a script at a chemist – actions which have been verified by police.

By the time he arrived back at the home, his wife has said she had already searched the house and garden for him, and had then taken her mother’s car and driven it down Benaroon Drive looking for him, before returning, figuring he couldn’t have travelled that far from the home.”

Question 1: Did MFC leave the first time at 8.40 am AND THEN he returned (Sending a text message to FFC saying he was returning)?

Question 2: Did MFC then send another text message to FFC when he said “Home in five” … thereby arriving back at 10.35 am?

I personally think there's a very good chance he made two trips. One to get a newspaper and drop off the script (perhaps realizing he was too early, if he was) and a second trip at 9:30.

I don't know how that changes things but I think it's possible. It would certainly explain two texts, especially if there were two trips and he hadn't necessarily planned to return from the first (until his virtual meeting was over).

Sure seemed like the foster grandma thought he was gone early.

Just raising the question -- is it possible that something happened to Wm hours before he was reported missing?

And the whole morning was manipulated?

I start with the photograph. Nor just the timestamp and whether altered but the content. Forget roaring. We were told that. By someone who is currently a POI, whose credibility has been called into question. So, to me, it is no longer a fact. (Never mind this -- why would Wm be playing Daddy Tiger if "daddy" wasn't even there?)

What if there was no fall at all? And Wm choked, out of sight, on a die, on a crayon, and he was in fact too quiet for too long. At 8am, 9am, 9:40am --

The timeline is wonky, the mystery drive is wonky... and (if the PPI is responsible for Wm's disappearance) so is the  cover story.

Best not to take anything at face value.

JMO

 

[Warshawski]

I’m so confused over the suggested comings & goings!

CCTV has FMFC going past Tennis Courts before 9am
But FFGM said he left house before 8 am

Then there’s the phone pings suggesting that he left FGM house at 9.30am -

Strange, as I thought it was confirmed that he was on his business call at 9.15am (and camera sighting in that call location, which I presume would’ve shown his arrival & departure time - I don’t think the call was made from Lakewood was it ?)

I presume LE would’ve checked what phone/ device he used for that Call & the length of the call. It was a ZOOM call I think, so if he had a seperate data SIM for the internet access, he would not have needed his mobile phone.

Maybe he left his phone at home & FFFC left at 9.30 with William, & took phone meeting up somewhere with FMFC.

Can we account for the times in his movements that morning ? There’s an hour discrepancy between FFGM‘s story & his verified passing the Tennis Courts -


He got script filled at 10.19am ( in Lakewood, which must be close, as he then went to general store & got paper & was home 10.35am - which must be verifiable) How far was it from where he made his Business Call to the Pharmacy in Lakewood.

as usual I can’t fInd the articles I’m looking for, in order to link, so will say that‘s all IMO - but hopefully the Police have been able to sort the Truth & form the correct timelines for these activities.

 

[Megnut]

If foster caregiver made two trips, could he have taken Wm with him on the first trip?

Didn't the foster grandma say something about three at breakfast?

I see no benefit of keeping such a thing secret but as far as I am concerned every known detail deserves analysis....

I'm not settled on the timestamp. Which to me means Wm could've been disappeared at 8, 9, 9:40....

FWIW I don't think the foster grandma was aware of the secret drive. That's huge to me. If the female caregiver felt it necessary to take a vehicle, not even her own, in sesrch of a child, why wouldn't she ask/tell? If for no other reason than to tell the other adult to keep an eye on the remaning child -- and look for the other?

Something doesn't make sense.

JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

"Mr Savage said he observed the 'little fellow' (William) had a close relationship with his foster parents as he 'followed them around the party'. "

Neighbour asked what he saw on day William Tyrrell vanished

Kendall resident Paul Savage describe William's relationship with his foster parents as close.

www.greatlakesadvocate.com.au

 

[Couldbe]

Just a little something I thought I’d share for those members who were adamant Ffc and fgm went and knocked on LH door the morning W disappeared. This is what I call “straight from the horses mouth”

AUDIO_D&ST_3: William Tyrrell: How the three-year-old vanished in a perfect storm of bad luck

Pay attention to the time LH mentions referring to the knock on the door. Maybe this adds a little clarity as to what time Ffc took that drive up the Barak creek rd that day

In the Audio, according to Lydene Hyslop, that knock on her door occurred at 11.30 am, and that it was Anne Maree Sharpley and FFC. If LH was correct in stating that time was 11.30 am, then that would have been after the arrival of Senior Constable Rowley ( at 11.06 am). SO, did FFC not remain at FFGM's house after 11.06 am, and did the LE not require her to stay there and guide them through the details?

 

[Marg944]

Regarding the photos of William ....... could anyone who attended the inquest on the 1st day recall if the photograph or multi photographs taken of William on 12/9/2014 and displayed on a huge screen, had the X-ways data included - as was published when the coroner released them on 12/9/2019 or were the copies displayed on the screen just the actual photos... please? TIA