Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #34

[SouthAussie]

The thought of these people existing tears me up inside.

I have a question re: the terms used by LE in this case.

The POI term. There’s not one suspect in this case. But we have been told that other are cleared as suspects. Surely they run a risk in using the POI term ie trial by media?

And I wonder if POI really has greater weight than just “someone police want to talk to” after all these years?

Quite a generic term ... POI. It is when POIs are named that we sit up and take notice. That is done for a reason, I think.

 

[BigT]

The thought of these people existing tears me up inside.

I have a question re: the terms used by LE in this case.

The POI term. There’s not one suspect in this case. But we have been told that other are cleared as suspects. Surely they run a risk in using the POI term ie trial by media?

And I wonder if POI really has greater weight than just “someone police want to talk to” after all these years?

I imagine a POI has a photo and some personal details on the white board.

 

[Bohemian]

Brett Cowan actually described himself as an ‘oportunist’ like a badge and of honour on a resume and he said he ‘just had to have him’.

No pre-planning. I want. I’ll take. Now. Nobody is watching.
Ready, set, gone.
Cowan did a lot of fancy talking to Daniel because Daniel was older and wiser but that filthy pedophile still got Daniel into his vehicle.
Cowan didn’t need to sweet-talk the two smaller children. He just picked them up and took them somewhere close. One into a toilet block and another into the bush and left to die, bashed so severely that when that little boy stumbled out people thought he’d been hit by a semi.

In essence, that’s a freakin’ pedophile.

Never to be trusted. Never to be around children because if the opportunity arises, they’ll act with no regard.

I was reading something about opportunistic predators such as BPC the other day. It stated ‘’ready’ is just who they are’.

 

[deugirtni]

And, if there is an arrest for an indictable offence such as murder, there won’t be an inquest until proceedings are finally determined, including the determination of any appeals:

CORONERS ACT 2009 (Sect 6.5, paras 78 & 79).

I had always thought that the purpose of an inquest was to look into/investigate either what happened in a case, or how to prevent something from happening in the future.. however, if there is an arrest for an indictable offence such as murder, there would be a murder trial.. so why would there also be a coroner's inquest?

AFAIK, if there was an arrest and conviction, including the exhaustion of appeals, irt William’s case his would be a reportable death:

CORONERS ACT 2009 - SECT 6 Meaning of "reportable death"

As it stands now, although William’s case has been passed to the Coroner as required after 12 months, there is no conclusive evidence that William is, in fact, deceased. Of course, the Coroner could hold an inquiry now but, as DCI Jubelin says, he believes that would be premature as the police investigation has not been concluded.

Sorry you've lost me! I still don't get why there would be an inquest if there was a murder trial, since evidence to convict an accused would be presented at trial, and judged (presumably) by a jury?

 

[Wexford]

'’I'm personally hoping it doesn't get to a coronial investigation because that would be indicative of us finding out what's happened to William.'
Do you think he quite simply means he hopes it doesn't go to a coronial investigation because that means there is no hope of finding William alive? Perhaps like all of us he still hopes that is not the case. And if he hopes it is not the case, then it would appear to me there is a slight chance he is right. Would a CI then change the nature of the investigation? I think that it would. Once assumed dead, there would be a lot less resources to search and prove otherwise or perhaps indeed to find exactly what did happen. I'm not saying there would not be a continuing investigation but would it be on the scale that we are seeing right now?

 

[Hbayne]

'’I'm personally hoping it doesn't get to a coronial investigation because that would be indicative of us finding out what's happened to William.'
Do you think he quite simply means he hopes it doesn't go to a coronial investigation because that means there is no hope of finding William alive? Perhaps like all of us he still hopes that is not the case. And if he hopes it is not the case, then it would appear to me there is a slight chance he is right. Would a CI then change the nature of the investigation? I think that it would. Once assumed dead, there would be a lot less resources to search and prove otherwise or perhaps indeed to find exactly what did happen. I'm not saying there would not be a continuing investigation but would it be on the scale that we are seeing right now?

That’s how I interpret it

 

[SouthAussie]

'’I'm personally hoping it doesn't get to a coronial investigation because that would be indicative of us finding out what's happened to William.'
Do you think he quite simply means he hopes it doesn't go to a coronial investigation because that means there is no hope of finding William alive? Perhaps like all of us he still hopes that is not the case. And if he hopes it is not the case, then it would appear to me there is a slight chance he is right. Would a CI then change the nature of the investigation? I think that it would. Once assumed dead, there would be a lot less resources to search and prove otherwise or perhaps indeed to find exactly what did happen. I'm not saying there would not be a continuing investigation but would it be on the scale that we are seeing right now?

I think there can still be hope of life if the finding of an inquest is open.
I believe the inquest (in a missing persons case) is to try to find an official determination of life or not.

I do not believe it is about trying to allocate guilt or non-guilt. An inquest (in a missing persons case) is a delving into all of the facts to determine if there has been a death. With a resulting indication of who/when/why/how, if death is presumed, due to the nature of this type of court case.

It seems that it is a suspicion of death, when the investigators file the missing persons case with the coroner.
In an inquest, this suspicion can then be ruled a presumption of death, or the case can be left open if the coroner finds the evidence does not point in one clear direction.



According to the Coroner's Court:
The police officer in charge of a missing person investigation must report the matter to the Coroner once they are satisfied that no further enquiries can be made as to whether a missing person is alive or deceased. This should occur as soon as the investigator is of the belief that the missing person is now deceased.
Missing persons cases are reported to the Coroner by investigating police officers in the form of a 'P79B Police Report of Suspected Death' ......
Missing persons

 

[Bohemian]

Sorry you've lost me! I still don't get why there would be an inquest if there was a murder trial, since evidence to convict an accused would be presented at trial, and judged (presumably) by a jury?

Because criminal and coronial matters come under different jurisdictions. That is my interpretation, bearing in mind that I am not a lawyer.

As you say, the coronial jurisdiction is inquisitorial: the Coroner determines what happened irt a death, or suspected death, and, in some instances, how it might be prevented from happening again.

A coronial inquest or inquiry is not a criminal trial to determine someone's guilt. If there is evidence that someone has committed a serious offence irt a death, the matter is referred to the DPP to determine if charges should be laid, independently of the Coroner and, if so, a judge (and jury) determine guilt as a result of a criminal trial. In that case, an inquest would be suspended until proceedings have been concluded.

 

[bearbear]

perfect porch view and hiding place from house 50/52 and so close to the cemetary carpark if someones hanging around there, it could have happened in a split second and been all over before little william was even missed

 

[sosocurious]

It is also good to remember that Jubes did not take over the case until February 2015.

Prior to that Fehon was the spokesperson (and perhaps the coordinator of the search for William?) Different people, different methodology, different experiences.

Who knows if a database containing all related info had been started and/or completed before Jubes. Who knows when the info about the cars came to the surface of all those bits of paper, notes, leads, phone calls, tips, notifications.


These same issues trouble veteran homicide detective Gary Jubelin, who took over this case in early February after the retirement of a colleague. Jubelin’s first task was a comprehensive review of the search. “Once I was assured that it was a thorough and professional search then, OK, if he’s not lost, he’s been snatched.” After meticulously investigating William’s immediate and wider family the detectives have ruled them out.
Nocookies The Australian April 18, 2015

I still wonder if Jubelin was on the case much earlier. The announcement he was taking over as lead of the investigation, of course was only weeks after the raids of BS's home and office. Just days after the referral to the coroner as a suspected death.

This second search is being considered a “forensic search” with a view of deliberate human intervention.
“I need to be able to show definitively that William’s disappearance was not the result of misadventure but as a result of human intervention.”

Detective Chief Inspector Jubelin, who has been on the case since the beginning, tells Chris “letting go” is “just not an option”.

“I believe someone out there has information and if they’re sitting on that information they’re taking a real risk that they’re committing a criminal offence by concealing the offence.”

https://www.2gb.com/police-scouring-bushland-in-fresh-william-tyrrell-search/
13/06/2018


A spokesman for the NSW Coroner’s Court yesterday confirmed that the matter was referred by police on January 30. “There has been no formal request for an inquest and the coroner has been advised that the police investigation into the disappearance of William Tyrrell is ongoing,’’ the spokesman said.

NSW police declined to answer questions about the referral, issuing a statement saying “detectives have been inundated with information in the past week, with hundreds of reports made to Crime Stoppers’’.

Nocookies
Daniel Morcombe coroner has file on William Tyrrell case
September 19, 2015

 

[bearbear]

THE NATION

‘You’d better come forward’ if you were in area: Tyrrell detective

• Dan Box And Greg Bearup
• The Australian
• 12:00AM February 19, 2015

DETECTIVES searching for the person who snatched three-year-old William Tyrrell plan to track the movements of everyone who was within a kilometre of the home from which he disappeared five months ago.

The dramatic shift in the investigation, likely to involve questioning hundreds of people as well as analysing CCTV footage, financial transactions and phone data, reflects the fact that police now believe he was abducted.

William, last seen wearing a Spider-Man costume, disappeared from his grandmother’s house on Benaroon Drive in Kendall, on the NSW mid-north coast, about 10.30am on September 12.

In his first interview since taking charge of the investigation this month, NSW police Homicide Squad Detective Inspector Gary Jubelin said: “This is not a little boy lost story. This is not a child that wandered off. We think there’s been human intervention.”

this date from the australian, (probably paywalled)
Nocookies

 

[bearbear]

The Newcastle Herald can also reveal one of the state’s most respected homicide investigators, Detective Inspector Gary Jubelin, has taken over the lead role in the investigation just days after police searched two properties belonging to a local handyman.
Top investigator appointed in search for William Tyrrell

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Not related to this case but maybe of interest generally.

New DNA evidence powers for Victoria Police could unravel 'thousands' of unsolved crimes

New DNA powers for police could crack cold cases

 

[frogwell]

The Newcastle Herald can also reveal one of the state’s most respected homicide investigators, Detective Inspector Gary Jubelin, has taken over the lead role in the investigation just days after police searched two properties belonging to a local handyman.
Top investigator appointed in search for William Tyrrell

We’re for Sydney | Daily Telegraph

Could that be because Hans Rupp retired in February 2015 and was overseeing the case before that? Maybe GJ did not become the lead investigator as a result of the two searches of BS properties although it could infer that meaning.

 

[sosocurious]

We’re for Sydney | Daily Telegraph

Could that be because Hans Rupp retired in February 2015 and was overseeing the case before that? Maybe GJ did not become the lead investigator as a result of the two searches of BS properties although it could infer that meaning.

Or maybe there was a well known cop in the wings from day one - given it was known Hans retirement was on the horizon.

“ Hans is known for being a straight down the line character who, rather than rush to the use of electronics to gather evidence, would rather get out on the front foot and talk to people,” Det Supt Willing said. “It’s an art we’re in danger of losing but one that has provided much of our successes over the past few years..................... agrees that detectives run the risk of relying too much on technology. “We didn’t have mobile phones or computers,” he said. “We’d type up records and use carbon paper and index cards. There was no DNA, just very general blood groupings and fingerprints. Even that is far more advanced today. “Instead, we wore the leather out of our shoes, getting out and talking to people. We should absolutely do more of that, even with the technology available. There’s nothing to stop today’s detectives from also getting out on the streets to talk to people, and looking them in the eye to see whether they’re lying.”

http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/331091/Hans_Rupp_retires_Feb15.pdf

 

[bearbear]

We’re for Sydney | Daily Telegraph

Could that be because Hans Rupp retired in February 2015 and was overseeing the case before that? Maybe GJ did not become the lead investigator as a result of the two searches of BS properties although it could infer that meaning.

yes, probably because of hans rupp retirement, or because of his detective and homicide expertise? for some reason ive always assumed det jubelin was responsible for the search on bs, i guess because of their past history

 

[SouthAussie]

yes, probably because of hans rupp retirement, or because of his detective and homicide expertise? for some reason ive always assumed det jubelin was responsible for the search on bs, i guess because of their past history

I think you are not alone in that. I hear people here and there saying that Jubes has a 'vendetta' against Spedding. With no evidence of that at all. Without considering that Jubes was not the arresting officer. Without stopping and thinking that there had to be good and reasonable cause for the search warrants against Spedding. For him to be named as a POI.
Perhaps things like no proof in his alibi, mobile phone ping records indicating lying, CCTV recordings perhaps, shirt found stuffed in his house drainpipe, meant to be at the grandma's house that same morning according to his son and others .......

Not having a go at anyone here, bearbear. So please don't think that.
It just frustrates me when people think others are ganging up on Spedding, just because Spedding put out a video saying he wasn't there or for whatever reason they have for thinking that.

 

[sosocurious]

I think you are not alone in that. I hear people here and there saying that Jubes has a 'vendetta' against Spedding. With no evidence of that at all. Without considering that Jubes was not the arresting officer. Without stopping and thinking that there had to be good and reasonable cause for the search warrants against Spedding. For him to be named as a POI.
Perhaps things like no proof in his alibi, mobile phone ping records indicating lying, CCTV recordings perhaps, shirt found stuffed in his house drainpipe, meant to be at the grandma's house that same morning according to his son and others .......

Not having a go at anyone here, bearbear. So please don't think that.
It just frustrates me when people think others are ganging up on Spedding, just because Spedding put out a video saying he wasn't there or for whatever reason they have for thinking that.

Indeed SA. It should be remembered that
Mr Spedding had been initially interviewed by FACS workers on December 9 2014 in an inquiry separate to the Tyrell case.

The mother who wants her child back said she was informed by FACs in December it was investigating Mr Spedding but would not tell her why.
The same month Port Macquarie detectives tried to contact her, she said, adding that she was horrified when she saw news reports of police searching the Speddings’ home.

Police have investigated some alleged inconsistencies in what he told them about his movements on September 12 ............
Mr Spedding this week conceded in an interview that he was a “person of interest” in the case but continues to maintain he had no involvement in William’s disappearance.
We’re for Sydney | Daily Telegraph

 

[SouthAussie]

Indeed SA. It should be remembered that
Mr Spedding had been initially interviewed by FACS workers on December 9 2014 in an inquiry separate to the Tyrell case.

The mother who wants her child back said she was informed by FACs in December it was investigating Mr Spedding but would not tell her why.
The same month Port Macquarie detectives tried to contact her, she said, adding that she was horrified when she saw news reports of police searching the Speddings’ home.

Police have investigated some alleged inconsistencies in what he told them about his movements on September 12 ............
Mr Spedding this week conceded in an interview that he was a “person of interest” in the case but continues to maintain he had no involvement in William’s disappearance.
We’re for Sydney | Daily Telegraph

Yes, and Spedding's properties were searched and he was named as a POI in January 2015, when someone else was in charge of the investigation ... not Gary Jubelin. Someone else made and authorised those decisions.

And with Margaret's grandchildren being removed from his house prior to 27th January 2015. Prior to Jubelin being in charge of William's investigation.

Children were removed from tradesman Bill Spedding’s care

 

[SouthAussie]

I still wonder if Jubelin was on the case much earlier. The announcement he was taking over as lead of the investigation, of course was only weeks after the raids of BS's home and office. Just days after the referral to the coroner as a suspected death.

I don't know if, or how much, Jubes was involved in the case prior to taking over. Seems he had to go over everything again to confirm for himself that the first round of searches were done properly.

It is very possible, if not probable, that they wanted a fresh pair of eyes and ears in charge, when they enlisted Jubes to the case.
Sometimes fresh eyes and ears find things that have been missed.


BBM
These same issues trouble veteran homicide detective Gary Jubelin, who took over this case in early February after the retirement of a colleague. Jubelin’s first task was a comprehensive review of the search. “Once I was assured that it was a thorough and professional search then, OK, if he’s not lost, he’s been snatched.”

Nocookies The Australian April 18, 2015