Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #50

[bearbear]

maybe ps arrangement to meet his brother was more casual, like “ill try to leave around 11 ish , but if im not there by 3 dont wait around for me” he may have done this before and it was normal for him to make big plans and find an excuse not to go,
4? hours is a ling drive

 

[Chrissy74]

Really who are any of us to question GJ actions throughout the course of this investigation.. I think his extensive yrs of experience and knowledge speak for itself.. ti profile a person capable of abducting a child would require a great deal of Pshyc knowledge and personality traits.. that would be just as important as obtaining the facts..anyone in that position would have to have a degree of arrogance about them
Maybe GJ was gaslighting PS but maybe PS was gaslighting the postie and his wife

 

[Karinna]

Really who are any of us to question GJ actions throughout the course of this investigation.. I think his extensive yrs of experience and knowledge speak for itself.. ti profile a person capable of abducting a child would require a great deal of Pshyc knowledge and personality traits.. that would be just as important as obtaining the facts..anyone in that position would have to have a degree of arrogance about them
Maybe GJ was gaslighting PS but maybe PS was gaslighting the postie and his wife

Police powers in the state of NSW. You are under no obligation to co operate with police questioning, and you should know your legal rights. Obviously PS & BS didn't IMO.
(quote)
Police Questioning

ALWAYS obtain legal advice prior to agreeing to being questioned by police.

• DO NOT answer any questions, except for providing your name and address;
• DO NOT agree to be recorded;
• DO NOT sign anything.

If you have NOT been arrested, you DO NOT have to attend the police station for questioning.

If you have been arrested, you generally have the RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT and do not have to say or do anything.
KNOW YOUR RIGHTS WHEN DEALING WITH NSW POLICE — Coutts Solicitors & Conveyancers

 

[Chrissy74]

Police powers in the state of NSW. You are under no obligation to co operate with police questioning, and you should know your legal rights. Obviously PS & BS didn't IMO.
(quote)
Police Questioning

ALWAYS obtain legal advice prior to agreeing to being questioned by police.

• DO NOT answer any questions, except for providing your name and address;
• DO NOT agree to be recorded;
• DO NOT sign anything.

If you have NOT been arrested, you DO NOT have to attend the police station for questioning.

If you have been arrested, you generally have the RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT and do not have to say or do anything.
KNOW YOUR RIGHTS WHEN DEALING WITH NSW POLICE — Coutts Solicitors & Conveyancers

Can also be a catch 22.. unfortunately.. you seek legal advice n chose not to answer questions you’re automatically hiding something or you answer their questions and risk being quoted word for word and misinterpreted.. but yes everyone should know their rights because we all have them

 

[Karinna]

Can also be a catch 22.. unfortunately.. you seek legal advice n chose not to answer questions you’re automatically hiding something or you answer their questions and risk being quoted word for word and misinterpreted.. but yes everyone should know their rights because we all have them

Excercising your legal rights doesn't make you guilty of a crime, you are protecting yourself by doing so. Lots of innocent people do it and is good sound legal advice.
By not doing so is part of the problem BS & PS are now finding themselves in with the mess this case is IMO.
If you are arrested & charged of a crime, it is up to the State to prove their case with evidence and a Jury Trial to make a conviction stick. In every criminal case i have followed previously.
There have also been plenty of wrongful convictions in the U.S.A. on faulty witness testimony as well. In Aus. i have no idea though?

 

[SLouTh]

Apparently the first call he couldn't reach his brother. I've found this myself calling a relative in hospital . . . "the cell phone's in use by someone else, try a bit later"; "oh, he's just gone for a little walk, try again in a while".

Also keeping it simple.... His brother may not have been discharged that?? After Dr's Rounds they may have decided to keep him in hospital longer???

The Savages may have also missed subsequent calls that day as they were outside and involved in the search that afternoon... PS and his BIL .. Mr Newton ..

 

[drsleuth]

And we still have not heard a time the postie was in Benaroon Drive? There is no proof Mr Savage was 'hanging' around anywhere is there? No sightings of Mr Savage by anyone ie neighbours in the vicinity saying so that I know of. I agree with your discussion around who was within earshot but heard nothing as well. Jubelin's concentration on two men ie Mr Spedding and Mr Savage got no where to uncover the truth of what occurred on Benaroon Drive that fateful morning.

No we haven't heard what time the postie would have been in Benaroon Drive, nor who the postie was, but from the Crabbs evidence , they got home about 09:30- 09:35 ( initially they said to police they got home at 10:30 but later changed to 09:30-09:35 after movements traced by police & times verified by receipts & loyalty cards from memory ) .

They said they got home , went to toilet & had a cup of tea on the back deck. They said they heard a vehicle about 10 mins later driving up benaroon drive & turning a round , thought sounded like it was the postie.

So that would put the time about 09:40-09:45?

I'm wondering if the postie has been questioned in closed court? ( the AVO stuff didn't come out till after the inquest had concluded ) & a statement from the postie was tendered at the end of the 1st tranche ( I assume that was a further statement IMO )



Neither of the Crabbs could remember seeing PS walk past their place to go on his morning walk that day, I'm not sure what time they left that morning??

 

[stormyseas]

DBM

 

[drsleuth]

And then we have a police officer Beacroft (with experience at child exploitation matters) stating that in her opinion William vanished at around 10.05am so when Heather Savage is believed to have departed (10.37am) as stated by Mr Savage in media reports (and maybe a statement to police) William had vanished by a good half an hour.

I do tend to believe that the time of 10:05 - 10:15 is more likely the time WT went missing, which is what Det Beacroft & Laidlaw thought that was mentioned by Mr Craddock when Det Beacroft was giving testimony in Taree..............and if that's the case than PS & HS should have been able to hear & see the events playing out on Benaroon Drive that morning IMO

 

[drsleuth]

I would love to hear Beacroft's reasoning for not believing FM saying he'd disappeared right before FD got home. Also Beacroft wasn't present when it happened (but FM and her mother were), so on what and how is she basing her theory of the time on? If PS had taken W from the neighbour's property half an hour before his wife left for bingo, where and how did he hide W for that half hour and how did he keep him quiet so as not to rouse his wife's suspicion that he'd stolen the neighbour's child? Then, after his wife left, what did he do with W then? Put tape on his mouth and hide him in a secret place in his house that for sure wouldn't be searched? (Police even opened up neighbour's attic accesses to check into them.)

If he made W unconscious, then how did he know that by the time W came to, and started screaming as he surely would be expected to, all the fuss on the street would be gone and nobody would hear him? (It wasn't, and they would have). We know his vehicle(s) was examined forensically, so he didn't take him anywhere in his vehicle(s). So if not unconscious, then did he kill him right away before his wife even left? And if so, why? The sheer logistics and circumstances here seem to suggest that it just wasn't possible for PS to have taken him and gotten away with it for five plus years?

BBM: Unfortunately at the inquest we are given tiny snippets of info & no reason given, it's very frustrating!! Some things seem to be mentioned so casually ( like Beacroft & Laidlaw's times they thought WT went missing ) feels almost like it's insignificant............obviously they have the whole brief & we are hearing very small portions of that .

 

[SLouTh]

I do tend to believe that the time of 10:05 - 10:15 is more likely the time WT went missing, which is what Det Beacroft & Laidlaw thought that was mentioned by Mr Craddock when Det Beacroft was giving testimony in Taree..............and if that's the case than PS & HS should have been able to hear & see the events playing out on Benaroon Drive that morning IMO

I agree with the timing Doc.... However they may have been busy inside at the time as from memory wasn't Heather busy cooking and putting meat in the "boiler" before she left that morning? In preparation for her brothers visit..... and that was why she was running a little late ???? She may have also been reminding PS to make those phone calls?? etc
So they may not have noticed as much as usual ???

 

[drsleuth]

Just re-reading my notes . Just a couple of things;

It is mentioned by Mr Craddock that a further call was made to Casino hospital @ 16:36 12/9/2014

In Mr McGorry's x exam of PS , it was mentioned HS gave a statement on 16/9/2014

He referred to HS's statement saying that Brother was coming to stay, cooked beef, made cheesecake.

 

[SLouTh]

Just re-reading my notes . Just a couple of things;

It is mentioned by Mr Craddock that a further call was made to Casino hospital @ 16:36 12/9/2014

In Mr McGorry's x exam of PS , it was mentioned HS gave a statement on 16/9/2014

He referred to HS's statement saying that Brother was coming to stay, cooked beef, made cheesecake.

In Mr McGorry's x exam of PS - Doc can you remind us if who Mr McGorry was representing please? I cant remember....
And great info re statement dates etc... Thanks...

 

[drsleuth]

In Mr McGorry's x exam of PS - Doc can you remind us if who Mr McGorry was representing please? I cant remember....
And great info re statement dates etc... Thanks...

PS

 

[Ms Kite]

Because he knows deep down that it isn't true?

Would you really bother putting yourself in this position if deep down you didn't think it were true? Think about the flak he gets for not reporting it earlier... I would think that deep down he probably feels guilty for that.

 

[Ms Kite]

DBM

 

[JLZ]

Would you really bother putting yourself in this position if deep down you didn't think it were true? Think about the flak he gets for not reporting it earlier... I would think that deep down he probably feels guilty for that.

I think he may have exaggerated what he saw when he was talking to family and friends. And didn't back down soon enough and found himself obliged to stick with the story officially. But as nothing else was seen, Chapman's alleged sighting should have been investigated by police when they heard of it as potentially true. Everyone was at fault. But there's nothing to be gained by blaming him. Whether he exaggerated or dilly-dallied, he isn't a suspect; he had guests.

 

[Ms Kite]

DBM... sorry having troubles getting things to work.

 

[JLZ]

Just re-reading my notes . Just a couple of things;

It is mentioned by Mr Craddock that a further call was made to Casino hospital @ 16:36 12/9/2014

In Mr McGorry's x exam of PS , it was mentioned HS gave a statement on 16/9/2014

He referred to HS's statement saying that Brother was coming to stay, cooked beef, made cheesecake.

I seem to be half-remembering something. Was there a problem with Heather's statement--that it was never signed, for example?

 

[Ms Kite]

Just re-reading my notes . Just a couple of things;

It is mentioned by Mr Craddock that a further call was made to Casino hospital @ 16:36 12/9/2014

In Mr McGorry's x exam of PS , it was mentioned HS gave a statement on 16/9/2014

He referred to HS's statement saying that Brother was coming to stay, cooked beef, made cheesecake.

So I guess this means that HS has confirmed that she went to bingo and the times she left.