AZ - Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea, allegedly shot and killed with an AK-47 by rancher George Alan Kelly, 75, Kino Springs, Jan 2023

[WingsOverTX]

That's one way of looking at it. Cops said he lied to them. Witnesses saw a horse fall -- probably reared and fell backward -- and they thought it was shot. How could it benefit them to make that up? Except that it now turns out that K mentioned the horse in his chronology of events, and it doesn't make any sense. If the horse was near where the immigrants were walking, then it hadn't been spooked by any gunfire until K started firing himself. JMO.

RBBM
Is there a source for this statement about GK? Thanks!

 

[Tbone144]

I’ve been “playing” around on my property with distances. My house is 700 feet from the road, 233 yards, From my porch with eyesight that isn’t perfect but not bad enough to need glasses I can see the end pole of my fence that is taller than others and 6” around. From the edge of my pasture to same fence pole is 500 feet, 166 yards and I can easily see that pole and my t-posts at the far fence line and my wooden pickets in between. I suspect I would have no issues seeing someone moving through my property at 166 yards. Therefore I would know if someone was within my property line. The closest neighbor I can see their house and car and hear them if they are outside, they are ~1400 feet away, 470 yards. Specifics on them would be difficult. I have 58 acres, almost square. What I couldn’t do was get a decent photo of what I can see vs what the camera sees at those distances, so don’t ask for photos, I tried that, it doesn’t translate on iPhone.

The point of all that is he has 170 acres, depending upon its configuration there should have been ample room to avoid being seen or at least being that close to his house. When you own lots of land, 150 yards can well be within your perimeter or comfort zone. No one should have been there, they weren’t strolling up the driveway or road making their presence known, they were walking in amongst the trees. If I see someone within my property sneaking about amongst the trees I’m going to be concerned with my safety. You don’t play adult hide and seek around some stranger’s house on 170 acres of land, so I would question their intent.

ETA: and furthermore, they should have been able to see the house (my 462 yard observation) much easier than he could see them (150 yard observation) so they should have been able to steer clear of his place if they were trying to avoid people.

 

[shotgun09]

That's one way of looking at it. Cops said he lied to them. Witnesses saw a horse fall -- probably reared and fell backward -- and they thought it was shot. How could it benefit them to make that up? Except that it now turns out that K mentioned the horse in his chronology of events, and it doesn't make any sense. If the horse was near where the immigrants were walking, then it hadn't been spooked by any gunfire until K started firing himself. JMO.

From what I recall, Kelly's original statement was, he was sitting down eating lunch when he heard gunfire. He got up and noticed his horse 'spooked' and running. ( A very normal response for horses...so I am told ) What the witnesses recall, one seeing a dead horse, and the other seeing it lying on it's back with it's legs up....does not make sense. There was neither a dead or injured horse found on the property. Only Mr Kelly's horse, who was found, or returned to his area later. MOO

Mr Kelly's version, complete with an alive horse...who probably was spooked by someone's gunfire...makes the most sense. MOO

 

[Deleted member 39678]

That's one way of looking at it. Cops said he lied to them. Witnesses saw a horse fall -- probably reared and fell backward -- and they thought it was shot. How could it benefit them to make that up? Except that it now turns out that K mentioned the horse in his chronology of events, and it doesn't make any sense. If the horse was near where the immigrants were walking, then it hadn't been spooked by any gunfire until K started firing himself. JMO.

I would guess that embellishing a made up story in an attempt to make it more believable could be why details like the horse are in the witness accounts.

Or they were really there and their recollection of events could be off. JMO.

 

[pentimento]

RBBM
Is there a source for this statement about GK? Thanks!

The best I can do is a DM article but it seems like I've read this elsewhere. Anyway I edited my post to take it out, as I'm not sure that the cops have explicity said that he lied or if that was a reporter's interpretation, but it seems apparent that the cops do not believe his story.

Arizona rancher, 73, appears in court in shackles and bulletproof vest as prosecutors claim he 'hunted' migrants with AK-47, lied to cops and is a 'danger' to society while he insists he was trying to protect his land and his wife from drug runners​

Arizona prosecutors say rancher 'hunted' Mexican migrants

George Alan Kelly returned to court today along with prosecutors in Santa Cruz County, Arizona, as prosecutors accused him of 'hunting' migrants with a rifle and lying to police.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[pentimento]

The point of all that is he has 170 acres, depending upon its configuration there should have been ample room to avoid being seen or at least being that close to his house. When you own lots of land, 150 yards can well be within your perimeter or comfort zone. No one should have been there, they weren’t strolling up the driveway or road making their presence known, they were walking in amongst the trees. If I see someone within my property sneaking about amongst the trees I’m going to be concerned with my safety. You don’t play adult hide and seek around some stranger’s house on 170 acres of land, so I would question their intent.

Could they have been looking for water? Maybe they saw the horse and figured there must be a trough somewhere.

 

[shotgun09]

Could they have been looking for water? Maybe they saw the horse and figured there must be a trough somewhere.

One of the witnesses said they were looking for water. It was not stated where they were on the property at that time either, IIRC

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

One of the witnesses said they were looking for water. It was not stated where they were on the property at that time either, IIRC

It’s almost as if they didn’t know much about the property at all. imo

I need to go back and see how many questions the state’s attorney asked that had nothing to do with a horse and the witness talked about the horse. She even said I’m not talking about the horse.

 

[shotgun09]

It’s almost as if they didn’t know much about the property at all. imo

I need to go back and see how many questions the state’s attorney asked that had nothing to do with a horse and the witness talked about the horse. She even said I’m not talking about the horse.

There were alot of red flags in the witnesses testimony, IMO.
Call me skepticat.

 

[Cool Cats]

In his testimony in the preliminary hearing he said that he and GCB paid 2500.00 each for crossing the border.

I haven’t listened to the entire thing yet but I don’t find the witness DDR very credible thus far. The state was asking about GCB after he was shot and DDR went on and on about a horse that was shot. He said it was on it’s back with it’s legs up. Afaik a horse wasn’t shot.

Agree, not credible.

1.) A person who was crossing the border with DDR and Gabriel Cuen-Butimea was later arrested for human smuggling.

2.) DDR and Gabriel Cuen-Butimea had crossed the border on multiple occasions.

3.) DDR's testimony is inconsistent with LE saying the shots were from a porch quite a distance away. He says the shooter came out of the brush and he saw the shooter's hands. He also contradicts himself when he then talks about gunfire like it is coming from the distance.

4.) No mention that there is any proof that DDR and Gabriel Cuen-Butimea payed this "mysterious someone" $2,500 to escort them to Phoenix.

5.) DDR did not come forward until the investigstion was compromised by publicity.

6.) DDR left his close friend's body unclaimed in the desert instead of reporting it for the family.

7.) DDR's statements not scrutinized the way George Kelly's were.

8.) Inconsistent statements alleged by defense which means they probably have proof of this.

9.) Border Patrol chief Rodney Scott stated:

"Everything that I have seen, my professional experience would tell me that that guy was either a scout or an actual guide for a group. With the radio, it's much more likely he was actually scouting out in advance, or the front-man, but that type of activity and behavior doesn't take place out there unless it's part of the cartel."

10.) DDR denies gun use but automatic weapons and other guns have been previously fired in the area and gunshots probably spooked George Kelly's horse.

11.) No evidence of a dead or injured horse, George Kelly's horse was running not lying down.

12.) A gun or guns could have been taken from Gabriel Cuen-Butimea along with his backpack.

13.) DDR says they were resting by a dirt road but then he says they were walking, then running being hunted, then George Kelly is jumping out of a bush near them, then he sees a horse lying down, etc...

• Arizona rancher accused of killing migrant to go to trial for murder
• Rancher who shot dead cartel drug smuggler doesn't know what to expect

Case of Nogales rancher charged with murder moves to trial after witness dramatically details shooting

Witness testimony revealed new details about the case of George Alan Kelly, the Nogales rancher accused of murder.

www.azcentral.com

 

[cvaldez1975]

In his testimony in the preliminary hearing he said that he and GCB paid 2500.00 each for crossing the border.

I haven’t listened to the entire thing yet but I don’t find the witness DDR very credible thus far. The state was asking about GCB after he was shot and DDR went on and on about a horse that was shot. He said it was on it’s back with it’s legs up. Afaik a horse wasn’t shot.

if they are locals just the other side and come back and forth all the time they may be coyotes or at least help others cross. that could account for the radios. its speculation only tho i have no clue.

 

[wary]

One of the witnesses said they were looking for water. It was not stated where they were on the property at that time either, IIRC

It seems to me that looking for water might draw them nearer to the house.

 

[pentimento]

I was just thinking that you hear these dramatic proclamations by former Border Patrol or some other "authority" that if people are being smuggled over the border then it is definitely cartel-related. I could be wrong, but I live near the Tijuana border crossing and it always seemed to me that it was more informal -- like individuals who operate as "Coyotes" and have the knowledge to get you over the border for a price. Maybe there's both things going on, IDK, but I've always thought of Coyotes as small-time operators.

 

[shotgun09]

I was just thinking that you hear these dramatic proclamations by former Border Patrol or some other "authority" that if people are being smuggled over the border then it is definitely cartel-related. I could be wrong, but I live near the Tijuana border crossing and it always seemed to me that it was more informal -- like individuals who operate as "Coyotes" and have the knowledge to get you over the border for a price. Maybe there's both things going on, IDK, but I've always thought of Coyotes as small-time operators.

I can see that view, but as soon as I do, the fact that the Cartels have their hand$$$ in anything that they can comes to the forefront. If there is money and power to use and abuse...they are in on it. MOO

 

[pentimento]

I can see that view, but as soon as I do, the fact that the Cartels have their hand$$$ in anything that they can comes to the forefront. If there is money and power to use and abuse...they are in on it. MOO

Yes, you're right about that. And it could be true with the Coyotes, who knows. Sometimes I wonder though if it's just an exaggeration. JMO.

 

[WingsOverTX]

Agree, not credible.

1.) A person who was crossing the border with DDR and Gabriel Cuen-Butimea was later arrested for human smuggling.

2.) DDR and Gabriel Cuen-Butimea had crossed the border on multiple occasions.

3.) DDR's testimony is inconsistent with LE saying the shots were from a porch quite a distance away. He says the shooter came out of the brush and he saw the shooter's hands. He also contradicts himself when he then talks about gunfire like it is coming from the distance.

4.) No mention that there is any proof that DDR and Gabriel Cuen-Butimea payed this "mysterious someone" $2,500 to escort them to Phoenix.

5.) DDR did not come forward until the investigstion was compromised by publicity.

6.) DDR left his close friend's body unclaimed in the desert instead of reporting it for the family.

7.) DDR's statements not scrutinized the way George Kelly's were.

8.) Inconsistent statements alleged by defense which means they probably have proof of this.

9.) Border Patrol chief Rodney Scott stated:

"Everything that I have seen, my professional experience would tell me that that guy was either a scout or an actual guide for a group. With the radio, it's much more likely he was actually scouting out in advance, or the front-man, but that type of activity and behavior doesn't take place out there unless it's part of the cartel."

10.) DDR denies gun use but automatic weapons and other guns have been previously fired in the area and gunshots probably spooked George Kelly's horse.

11.) No evidence of a dead or injured horse, George Kelly's horse was running not lying down.

12.) A gun or guns could have been taken from Gabriel Cuen-Butimea along with his backpack.

13.) DDR says they were resting by a dirt road but then he says they were walking, then running being hunted, then George Kelly is jumping out of a bush near them, then he sees a horse lying down, etc...

• Arizona rancher accused of killing migrant to go to trial for murder
• Rancher who shot dead cartel drug smuggler doesn't know what to expect

Case of Nogales rancher charged with murder moves to trial after witness dramatically details shooting

Witness testimony revealed new details about the case of George Alan Kelly, the Nogales rancher accused of murder.

www.azcentral.com

Excellent post!

I find this in particular very revealing because life is not sacred AT ALL in the border desert to those who make money off the human tragedy there, which should give pause to all who think this group was just "seeking a better life":
6.) DDR left his close friend's body unclaimed in the desert instead of reporting it for the family.

 

[pentimento]

6.) DDR left his close friend's body unclaimed in the desert instead of reporting it for the family.

Report it to whom? The Sheriff?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Report it to whom? The Sheriff?

He seems to have no problem talking to LE now. JMO.

 

[Cool Cats]

Excellent post!

I find this in particular very revealing because life is not sacred AT ALL in the border desert to those who make money off the human tragedy there, which should give pause to all who think this group was just "seeking a better life":
6.) DDR left his close friend's body unclaimed in the desert instead of reporting it for the family.

Thanks

I expected to get remarks saying my points are not valid, so I appreciate your positive remark.

I believe that what makes DDR's testimony so sketchy is not any one thing but all the inconsistencies put together. A totality of the evidence. When you look at the total of what we know, his testimony becomes questionable.

I believe George Kelly's attorney is correct when stating that his testimony was analyzed closely but with DDR LE seems to have simply taken his word for it. Kelly, on the other hand, is accused outright of being a liar.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Excellent post!

I find this in particular very revealing because life is not sacred AT ALL in the border desert to those who make money off the human tragedy there, which should give pause to all who think this group was just "seeking a better life":
6.) DDR left his close friend's body unclaimed in the desert instead of reporting it for the family.

I have my doubts on this being a friend.

He also said he jumped over him to get away from gun fire. This didn’t make sense to me since he says he saw him clutching his chest and he saw his eyes roll back. If he had time to see that why jump over him?

The prosecutor KH did ask where he was in relation to GCB when he got shot. He said that he was behind him. She asked how close? He said ”one step”.