AZ AZ - Grand Canyon, 'Little Miss X' UP9859, Wht/Hisp Fem, 11-17, nail file case "P" & "R", Oct'58

[youngsleuth95]

Doe Network states Donnis has been excluded, but doesn't state by what means. Last I can recall, Donnis had DNA available and the remains didn't. The only identifier the remains had were dental records, where Donnis didn't have those. So it's not clear how the exclusion was made, or how reliable the source. I'm team these remains could still be Donnis.
Last we knew, the remains were missing, but interestingly, doe network also states they may have been located in 2018, which sounds kind of iffy to me.

https://www.doenetwork.org/cases/software/main.html?id=1193ufaz

The remains found in 2018 were not LMX's, but those of another individual.

 

[brittanyoshell]

I'm sorry if this is a stupid question but if they did find this doe's remains how would they even know it's this doe and not another doe they lost? They don't have DNA on file so it's not like they could retest the remains and match it back to the original sample

 

[Alleykins]

The remains found in 2018 were not LMX's, but those of another individual.

Wasn't sure, that's why I wrote it sounded iffy.

 

[Alleykins]

I'm sorry if this is a stupid question but if they did find this doe's remains how would they even know it's this doe and not another doe they lost? They don't have DNA on file so it's not like they could retest the remains and match it back to the original sample

You're right, how would they know? The best we could hope for, I guess, is if they're found, they're labeled.

 

[lightofmine99]

The NamUs for Little Miss X was modified today.

There are still no public exclusions.

 

[youngsleuth95]

The NamUs for Little Miss X was modified today.

There are still no public exclusions.

I hope they are close to identifying her.

 

[lightofmine99]

I hope they are close to identifying her.

I'm not sure how they would do that if they have not found where she was reburied. Did they think to collect DNA (like hair or a tooth) when they exhumed her?

 

[Alleykins]

I'm not sure how they would do that if they have not found where she was reburied. Did they think to collect DNA (like hair or a tooth) when they exhumed her?

I'm fairly certain they had her hair in evidence, separate from her remains. But I believe the hair had hair dye in it, so I'm not sure if they could get a usable DNA sample from it. I also recall seeing pictures of the skull and the teeth, but they have since been removed from NamUs. Not sure if they kept it separate or if they interred it with the remains.

 

[Springrain]

I'm fairly certain they had her hair in evidence, separate from her remains. But I believe the hair had hair dye in it, so I'm not sure if they could get a usable DNA sample from it. I also recall seeing pictures of the skull and the teeth, but they have since been removed from NamUs. Not sure if they kept it separate or if they interred it with the remains.

Alleykins, I remember seeing the skull and the teeth too. I wanna say it may have been from a newspaper article and not NamUs, but I may be wrong.

Does hair dye affect usable DNA? I would think it would be OK still, but again I may be wrong.

I really hope there's movement on the case. IMO I feel it likely is a Sharon Gallegos-type situation where Pinky Redman was incorrectly excluded. But that's just MOO.

 

[Alleykins]

Alleykins, I remember seeing the skull and the teeth too. I wanna say it may have been from a newspaper article and not NamUs, but I may be wrong.

Does hair dye affect usable DNA? I would think it would be OK still, but again I may be wrong.

I really hope there's movement on the case. IMO I feel it likely is a Sharon Gallegos-type situation where Pinky Redman was incorrectly excluded. But that's just MOO.

You may be right, it could have been a newspaper. I guess the reason I believed it was NamUs is because I remember them being in color, and pictures in the newspapers tend to be in black and white. I will have to look around. I recall I took screen shots of those photos, but I can't remember where I stored them on my PC or what I named the pictures.

I Googled if DNA can be extracted from a dyed hair strand, and this is what the AI generated response replied:

"Yes, DNA can be extracted from a dyed hair strand, although the quality of the DNA might be reduced depending on the dye used and the extraction method, and it's typically most successful if the hair root is still attached, as that's where the majority of DNA is located; however, even without the root, mitochondrial DNA can still be extracted from the hair shaft itself."
If this is accurate, there's hope then.

 

[iamshadow21]

You may be right, it could have been a newspaper. I guess the reason I believed it was NamUs is because I remember them being in color, and pictures in the newspapers tend to be in black and white. I will have to look around. I recall I took screen shots of those photos, but I can't remember where I stored them on my PC or what I named the pictures.

I Googled if DNA can be extracted from a dyed hair strand, and this is what the AI generated response replied:

"Yes, DNA can be extracted from a dyed hair strand, although the quality of the DNA might be reduced depending on the dye used and the extraction method, and it's typically most successful if the hair root is still attached, as that's where the majority of DNA is located; however, even without the root, mitochondrial DNA can still be extracted from the hair shaft itself."
If this is accurate, there's hope then.

AI is behind the times, they've been able to get nuclear DNA from rootless hair for years now.

MOO

 

[Alleykins]

AI is behind the times, they've been able to get nuclear DNA from rootless hair for years now.

MOO

Actually, the AI implies it knows DNA can be extracted from a root-less hair follicle with this statement:
"it's typically most successful if the hair root is still attached" which I believe is true.

 

[Alleykins]

Actually, the AI implies it knows DNA can be extracted from a root-less hair follicle with this statement:
"it's typically most successful if the hair root is still attached" which I believe is true.

Never mind, I just reread it and it mentions mDNA. You are correct.

 

[Issa]

LMX skull and jaw was examined in 1960’s when the Coconino Sheriff’s Department hand-carried them to Wyoming to be compared to Connie Smith’s dental records. Since her dentist could not say for certain the remains were hers. The deputy drove to Denver where three forensic pathologists studied the remains. None would say the remains were Smith’s. Her remains were returned to Flagstaff area.

I truly do not believe LMX has ever been buried nor was she exhumed before the trip to WY and Denver because no court record has ever been located with that information.

It is therefore my assertion she was returned to the former location and held for further examination. Now on a shelf still waiting.

I do have information to that may point to that fact.

Meanwhile, Connie Smith was never taken to AZ and murdered there. It is quite possible she was murdered by the serial child murderer, George Davies, who was very familiar with the area of Northwest Connecticut where Connie disappeared from.

 

[Alleykins]

LMX skull and jaw was examined in 1960’s when the Coconino Sheriff’s Department hand-carried them to Wyoming to be compared to Connie Smith’s dental records. Since her dentist could not say for certain the remains were hers. The deputy drove to Denver where three forensic pathologists studied the remains. None would say the remains were Smith’s. Her remains were returned to Flagstaff area.

I truly do not believe LMX has ever been buried nor was she exhumed before the trip to WY and Denver because no court record has ever been located with that information.

It is therefore my assertion she was returned to the former location and held for further examination. Now on a shelf still waiting.

I do have information to that may point to that fact.

Meanwhile, Connie Smith was never taken to AZ and murdered there. It is quite possible she was murdered by the serial child murderer, George Davies, who was very familiar with the area of Northwest Connecticut where Connie disappeared from.

Do you mean she was returned to Flagstaff?

 

[Issa]

She was returned from the location where her rermains were taken from. No further information can be shared at this time.

 

[Alleykins]

She was returned from the location where her rermains were taken from. No further information can be shared at this time.

I'm confused. Are you now a verified insider on this case?

 

[Melt71]

I'm confused. Are you now a verified insider on this case?

From earlier postings I thought @Issa was a podcaster but not sure about being a VI on WS.

 

[Issa]

From earlier postings I thought @Issa was a podcaster but not sure about being a VI on WS.

I am an active researcher for both Connie Smith and Little Miss X cases. My planned podcast was set aside because of a family health issue.

In my almost 60-plus years of researching, collecting, digging, and case sharing into both cold cases, two separate emails resurfaced to open other avenues of clues being investigated.

There is little to report on either yet investigation yet, but I will share when it does. So many Websleuthers have provided ideas, information and support. Hopefully someone may remember an old family story they heard, or saw something that just doesn't fit or stumble upon long stored information, somehow. Share it, no matter how strange or unbelievable they may sound. That is what keeps me looking, they are giant puzzles and we need more eyes, uncommon ideas, “have you thought about…” thinking. Lets throw the ideas onto the wall and see what sticks.
I am open to anything and everything. Let’s do it!

 

[Issa]

I actively questioned anyone who would listen to me since I first learned about Connie Smith in 1961 when my family moved to Northwestern Connecticut. I was in high school. LEOs were busy with law enforcement and crimes, but still actively investigated any tips and leads on the Smith case. A letter to CT State Police alerting them to a case in Coconino County Sheriff of the of a young girl remains found near the Grand Canyon. This letter began the linking of Connecticut’s Connie Smith to Little Miss X case in Arizona.

Since the Internet was way in the future, and many time-consuming miles to visits large libraries were not available to me. My search was hit or miss for a long time until someone opened their files to me in the late 1990’s. Which opened my eyes to Websleuth. I first met Silvia Pettem, a Colorado historian, and researcher looking into a Boulder Jane Doe case. She contacted me hoping Connie was her Jane Doe. No match there.
(Her team in Internet researchers solved the Boulder Jane Doe after ten years of search work.)

I became friends with Connie’s brother, Nels Smith, unfortunately, he and his wife were killed in a traffic accident a few months before I was to visit with him in Wyoming last year.

I'm sorry if this is a stupid question but if they did find this doe's remains how would they even know it's this doe and not another doe they lost? They don't have DNA on file so it's not like they could retest the remains and match it back to the original sample

If a doe’s remains are located, while looking for Little Miss X, there are dental records in the sheriff’s file for comparison and assist preliminary identification of the remains to be Miss X.