AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - # 9

[Pensfan]

It seemed to me that it was all about HIM and not a missing child. He referred to HIMSELF 7 times, and Isabel, not once.

Good catch! (Me, me, me. It's all about me.)

 

[AnaTeresa]

This is a BIG deal to me. Could be a game changer for me when it comes to my opinion of the parents' possible involvement.

Earlier, LE only stated that the dogs gave some information. That could be a hit or a failure to hit.

Now he clearly said the dogs alerted on some items which caused LE to need to secure the home and search it more fully?

What kind of alert could cause that but a cadaver hit? Anyone?

Well, if it was a cadaver dog, she could have been killed by an intruder before being removed. It would at least answer the question how the perp, if it was a stranger, got her out of the house quickly.

If it wasn't a cadaver dog, the hit could have been for a particular person, if they already had a suspect in mind. If they had something of X's that the dog smelled, and then the dog alerted in the house, I could see that being of interest as well.

 

[gitana1]

:moo:

Not sure, there were 2 FBI dogs, not sure WHAT they were trained to hit on. I don't think they would send TWO cadaver dogs though.

We have seen in other cases that they often use multiple cadaver dogs to make sure they cover the margin for error.

But, what other kind of hit would cause them to need to get everyone out and secure the home?

 

[TxLady2]

Since it is part of the investigation they most likely had them somewhere else and where questioning them separately, and then one by one took them to the house for more questions. They were probably separated before leaving for the house.

It's been 13 days, I see no reason to keep the parents separated, unless they suspect one or both of them. I've never seen LE keep a family apart for that long, it doesn't make sense. Not trying to argue with you at all, just saying this is strange. In fact, I don't believe LE would have the power to deliberately keep the family apart indefinitely. And why would they? If they think something is up with them, they could have bugged the house and been able to listen in on conversations between them.
I wonder if the parents were in separate places for some reaon or another, like work, for instance. That would explain different detectives arriving with each one separately. This could turn out totally innocent and a big fat nothing. Just sayin'.

 

[gitana1]

Well, if it was a cadaver dog, she could have been killed by an intruder before being removed. It would at least answer the question how the perp, if it was a stranger, got her out of the house quickly.

If it wasn't a cadaver dog, the hit could have been for a particular person, if they already had a suspect in mind. If they had something of X's that the dog smelled, and then the dog alerted in the house, I could see that being of interest as well.

We have talked about this in the Baby Lisa and Caylee Anthony cases but I can't recall. How long does a a body have to be deceased before a cadaver dog will hit?

 

[AnaTeresa]

LE has been almost begging the family to talk to the media. They are not answering some of what I would consider simple questions like the timeline for example.

Are they concerned that some of the answers to these questions may inadvertently point the finger at the parents or a family member and then if it turns out it is a stranger, they are faced with legal ramifications? OR have the parents or family members lawyered up already? Or will lawyer up ?

Something isn't making sense.

If they weren't answering simple questions for LE, I would think LE would come straight out and say that. We've seen in other cases where LE have cast the family in much stronger suspicion than the family here - "failed" lie detector tests, saying the family isn't cooperating, etc. If they weren't cooperating, I think that they would simply say so. I think the family are cooperating with LE. I think the plea for them to speak to the media isn't about cooperation, but for some other reason.

 

[callyn]

sigh....JVM just said a "swat team" of investigators swarmed into the house today. Talk about exaggerating for ratings.

 

[Quiche]

My feeling is that today was about reenactments-- mom, dad, and older son taken in separately to give the details of what happened (from their own perspectives) when they returned from the ball park late that Friday night.

I find it relevant that JM wasn't taken to the scene this afternoon-- the biggest indicator thus far that he didn't stay the night that night, imo. :waitasec:




Where's Isabel?!

 

[~n/t~]

This is a BIG deal to me. Could be a game changer for me when it comes to my opinion of the parents' possible involvement.

Earlier, LE only stated that the dogs gave some information. That could be a hit or a failure to hit.

Now he clearly said the dogs alerted on some items which caused LE to need to secure the home and search it more fully?

What kind of alert could cause that but a cadaver hit? Anyone?

The article is dated April 24th and I specifically recall the media reports (won't mention which one....it's starts with H) that a cadaver dog "hit" inside the home. Days later they said they didn't know if it was a cadaver dog. They also changed the wording to "inside" to "near" the home.

There has been no confirmation whatsoever what type of dog hit and where. For all we know it was Isa's scent or if it was a cadaver dog, mom is a nurse and dad is a dental hygienist....soo........blood could be a source but not the right source. IMO

There was discussion about this early on.

 

[Deleted member 718]

This is a BIG deal to me. Could be a game changer for me when it comes to my opinion of the parents' possible involvement.

Earlier, LE only stated that the dogs gave some information. That could be a hit or a failure to hit.

Now he clearly said the dogs alerted on some items which caused LE to need to secure the home and search it more fully?

What kind of alert could cause that but a cadaver hit? Anyone?

ABCNews:A dog from an FBI search team that included a scent dog and a cadaver dog hit on something in the house that police noted was "important" to the investigation on April 22."

Okay, I think we know what a cadaver dog does. IIRC a scent dog can sniff out a new or unusual scent in a home. Like the Sesame Street game "One of these things is not like the other".

SARX, the dog expert, posted about it on one of the previous threads.

 

[GutFeeling!]

This is a BIG deal to me. Could be a game changer for me when it comes to my opinion of the parents' possible involvement.

Earlier, LE only stated that the dogs gave some information. That could be a hit or a failure to hit.

Now he clearly said the dogs alerted on some items which caused LE to need to secure the home and search it more fully?

What kind of alert could cause that but a cadaver hit? Anyone?

All of what I am about to say is pure speculation. IF uncle had been questioned and said that he did not go back to the house or sleep there and a dog hit on his scent in Isabel' room.

One of the boys may have said they never went in to Isa's room but the dogs hit on one of their scents.

Isa's scent may have been picked up leaving the house via a door and no hits on her scent at the window.

Blood tracings - which could have been an innocent scuffed knee - they can alert to invisible stuff and they can have false alerts too.

 

[~n/t~]

If they weren't answering simple questions for LE, I would think LE would come straight out and say that. We've seen in other cases where LE have cast the family in much stronger suspicion than the family here - "failed" lie detector tests, saying the family isn't cooperating, etc. If they weren't cooperating, I think that they would simply say so. I think the family are cooperating with LE. I think the plea for them to speak to the media isn't about cooperation, but for some other reason.

I didn't say they weren't cooperating? :waitasec:

 

[~n/t~]

Going to watch JVM......with ear plugs. See you all later.

 

[AnaTeresa]

We have talked about this in the Baby Lisa and Caylee Anthony cases but I can't recall. How long does a a body have to be deceased before a cadaver dog will hit?

Found the Q&A from Lisa's forum. Apparently a dog can hit very quickly after death. So it wouldn't have taken much, I don't think.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION**

 

[Shelby2]

We have talked about this in the Baby Lisa and Caylee Anthony cases but I can't recall. How long does a a body have to be deceased before a cadaver dog will hit?

I think they can sense it very, VERY soon after-minutes. Decomp starts at the moment of death from what I remember.
Maybe the SARS expert can weigh in here?

 

[AnaTeresa]

I didn't say they weren't cooperating? :waitasec:

Oh, I wasn't disagreeing with you, just thinking out loud because your post had created a jumping off point for my thoughts. Didn't mean to confuse you, sorry!

 

[Shelby2]

Uh... Are they keeping the husband and wife separated? Or just questioning them separately??

 

[Pensfan]

ABCNews:A dog from an FBI search team that included a scent dog and a cadaver dog hit on something in the house that police noted was "important" to the investigation on April 22."

Okay, I think we know what a cadaver dog does. IIRC a scent dog can sniff out a new or unusual scent in a home. Like the Sesame Street game "One of these things is not like the other".

SARX, the dog expert, posted about it on one of the previous threads.

That's my fave song!

 

[liz b.]

* SPECULATIVE POST *


My list of possible POI's


1. The young teenage boy who was going to the Celis' house with his father, and was caught by the reporters video. Reason : his glance at the LEO standing by the Celis' house. Something made me very uneasy.Can't say what. Also, his proximity to Isabel's house.

2. The "uncle" . I guess based on the possibility that he may have had access to Isabel that night... Has a history of drug and alchohol related problems.

3. CM . Had acess to Isabel that night.

4. RSO or unregistered SO.

5. The "creeper " in the night video by Office Max

JUST MY OPINION.

 

[TxLady2]

No matter where a relative woke up that day, they were waking to crisis. But in any event, it sounded to me like he was describing what the parents were feeling, not himself.

Listen, he could have been there. Who knows? You have some good reasons for thinking he may have been there. And I think it is fine to wonder and speculate. My problem is that I am starting to see rumor or speculation begin to be treated as fact. I'm sorry, but I think we need to be very careful with that.

I fully agree!
He never referenced himself, it was a general "you" so I fail to see how that became more about himself, as someone mentioned earlier. He may or may not be involved, but at this point it's all speculation.
And yes, we do need to be careful about rumors evolving into facts, which seems to happen in most cases.