GUILTY AZ - Six killed, 13 injured in shooting at Gabrielle Giffords event, 8 Jan 2011 - #1

[hockeymom]

I still ask many of those questions and, was shocked to learn that my daughter is bipolar with a personality disorder. But the truth is you never know what to think, Sometimes when they are rebellious, you do not call it mental illness, you just hope they will agree to go to therapy and outgrow this phase, (that is what I was thinking)
Most of the time, she was a good kid, who grew into a nice person….Now she is angry all the time, especially at me because I had to call 911 on her.
I know people that are in their 60's and are arrogant, rebellious, and think the world threw them a curve ball. However, they are not MI. But sure act out a lot.
NON THE LESS many MI people have the same signs, it is not so easy to diagnose, or even identify, and it only gets worse and worse.

Easier said then done

Songline,I understand what you are saying,and in most cases the signs are probably very subtle,but I don't think this was the case with Jared. At least for the last few months. He sounds like he was positively crazy. From what I understand the sheriff's office was aware of his problems and under Arizona law could have had him taken in for a psyciatric evaluation. As for his parents it was very clear from the college that he needed meds. We don't know much about them,maybe they don't believe in medications,who knows. All I know is ,it seems like all the signs were right there,but people chose not to act.

 

[songline]

Heartfortruth--You are absolutely correct. It does often take violence or tragedy to access services. For us, it's been attempted suicide or threatened violence. I once stood in a frozen field pushing every "button" I could on one of our mentally ill special needs adopted sons, getting in his face and almost begging him to hit me as police stood in a circle around us. I'd been told that was the only way I could get a 72 hour hold. I was already ill and very frail and am only 5'1". He is a strapping 6 footer and was high on meth. He was threatening to shoot up a whole vial of insulin (he's done it twice before and spent many days in the ICU). One shove onto my backside is all it took. They had him in handcuffs in about 2 seconds. But a 72 hour hold didn't fix him. He didn't improve and get clean and get on appropriate meds until he was ready to--6 years later. He's actually doing quite well now.

When in the ER with mentally ill young adults I also have to admit that I've used the trick of "riling" them up verbally so they'll be held. Usually, it doesn't take much to get someone to trash the room and have security called. No hospital is going to keep someone where their parents are calmly saying, "Hey, we're OK. We can handle this." No, you have to be in crisis and beg for help. And that's a shame.

What an irony that violence is so often the only path to treatment.

HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE TO DIE?
HOW MANY MI WHO SUFFER MUCH HAVE TO SUFFER MORE?
BEFORE THEY DO SOMETHING TO CHANGE THE LAW?
:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

 

[songline]

Songline,I understand what you are saying,and in most cases the signs are probably very subtle,but I don't think this was the case with Jared. At least for the last few months. He sounds like he was positively crazy. From what I understand the sheriff's office was aware of his problems and under Arizona law could have had him taken in for a psyciatric evaluation. As for his parents it was very clear from the college that he needed meds. We don't know much about them,maybe they don't believe in medications,who knows. All I know is ,it seems like all the signs were right there,but people chose not to act.

But HM I did act and it did not work.
THE KEY IS the MI HAS to choose it, want it, or they can refuse it because they have right.
THE LAW HAS TO CHANGE.According to the Law in NYC, they can give them 72-hour observation. IF they harmed themselves, they can get longer in a Hospital depending on your insurance. HOWEVER, THEY DO GET OUT and many then stop their meds. And it starts again..... (they do suffer)
If they harm another person other then self, the jails are lined with those already.

 

[hockeymom]

HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE TO DIE?
HOW MANY MI WHO SUFFER MUCH HAVE TO SUFFER MORE?
BEFORE THEY DO SOMETHING TO CHANGE THE LAW?
:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

Last year my sister,who is on antidepressents,got her meds all messed up,then got in a very bad way. She had a night where she had drank too much wine and taken some pills,not in a suicide attempt,but merely a cry for help. My niece tried to get her admittted somewere and they refused everywhere. If she had not made what they deemed a real suicide attempt,she wasn't getting treatment. They told her to just go see her regular Dr. the next day. I guess we should have lied.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Just heard this on tv and found this link that is similar to the laws of AZ. We heard there are 4 state including AZ that do this.


• What happens when a defendant is found incompetent to stand trial?

snip
A finding of incompetence merely signals a hiatus in the criminal proceedings. In the majority of cases, a mentally ill defendant deemed incompetent receives treatment until he is deemed "restored to competence," and returns to court.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/trial/faqs.html

 

[OkGrace]

I truelly do feel for these people,but from all reports it sounds like Jared had issues before he turned 18.(alcohol overdose in 11th grade),did they get him help? Also sounds like they imposed their isolationist lifestyle on him as a child,not letting him play with neighborhood children. I'd love to know about his life before high school. There is so much more we need to know to understand how Jared got to this point.

My Brother had help until he was no longer covered on my Parents insurance. My Mom has struggled like you would not believe, she was once denied a restraining order and was so embarrassed she never tried again. We beg her constantly. We are all afraid for her. He does not live with her however he continues to harass up all out of the blue for no reason...

I feel so bad for the parents right now, something may come out later but for now without any proof of wrongdoing I feel for them.

 

[i.b.nora]

Here is a longer version of the new AP article:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...fV7I6g?docId=9f0066934a454659a2e5b977cb295733

 

[tiredblondy]

I found something that I think has been overlooked. Here is an article about another political figure that was killed in Dec. 2010 in Arizona. Wonder if this is connected to Gifford's shooting????

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_phoenix_metro/south_phoenix/police-search-for-suspect-after-az-politician-found-shot

 

[raisincharlie]

I wish that article would have identified which "police" had arrested Loughner for the vandalism. Would be interesting to know if it was Tucson police or Pima County. Note the article says he was arrested "near Tucson". Curious

 

[Padua]

I'm weighing on this. Schizophrenia is a terrible disease. He had no clue what he was doing. He lives outside of the parameters of reality. He needs psychotropic medication. And believe me, once he has the correct meds he will remember what happened and will be in shock. Mental illness is a terrible thing.

there were too many warning signs. someone should have helped this poor soul. again, schizophrenia is a terrible disease. he will never be the child his parents though he was.

 

[Padua]

My Brother had help until he was no longer covered on my Parents insurance. My Mom has struggled like you would not believe, she was once denied a restraining order and was so embarrassed she never tried again. We beg her constantly. We are all afraid for her. He does not live with her however he continues to harass up all out of the blue for no reason...

I feel so bad for the parents right now, something may come out later but for now without any proof of wrongdoing I feel for them.

The sad part is that people see visiting psychologists as a stigma. I see it everyday.

 

[Missizzy]

tiredblondy--Thanks for posting that. In all the ruckus, I had not seen it. Very very important issue. My heart goes out to Mr. Smith's family and friends. This literally did get lost. I'd suggest a new thread for the murder of Christopher Smith. Tragic.

 

[Missizzy]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_congr...lYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcnkEc2xrA2FwbmV3c2JyZWFrbQ--

APNewsBreak: More warning signs on day of shooting


"Investigators on Tuesday revealed more disturbing details about the events leading up to the assassination attempt against U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, including a menacing handwritten note in the suspect's home with the words "Die, b**ch."

And on the day of the shooting, a mumbling Jared Loughner ran into the desert near his home after his father asked him why he was removing a black bag from the trunk of a family car, sheriff's officials said. Loughner resurfaced later Saturday when authorities say he showed up at a grocery store in a taxi and carried out the rampage...."

more at link

 

[Missizzy]

Who are the "two young men"? Do the Loughners have other children or young relatives?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_usa_s...zZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3J5BHNsawNmYW1pbHlvZmFjY3U-

"...Two young men emerged from the one-story brick home mostly enclosed by hedges in a middle class neighborhood of Tucson and handed out the statement to a throng of media waiting outside...."

more at link

 

[Snick1946]

I found something that I think has been overlooked. Here is an article about another political figure that was killed in Dec. 2010 in Arizona. Wonder if this is connected to Gifford's shooting????

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_phoenix_metro/south_phoenix/police-search-for-suspect-after-az-politician-found-shot

Might be related, but maybe not. What I found chilling were the comments on the article. "Log Cabin Republican' infers he was gay. Overall I found them disturbing. I wonder what is going on in Arizona? Could this have been a right wing militia hit?

 

[Snick1946]

My Brother had help until he was no longer covered on my Parents insurance. My Mom has struggled like you would not believe, she was once denied a restraining order and was so embarrassed she never tried again. We beg her constantly. We are all afraid for her. He does not live with her however he continues to harass up all out of the blue for no reason...

I feel so bad for the parents right now, something may come out later but for now without any proof of wrongdoing I feel for them.

One major provision of then Health Care Reform act was the extension of coverage to age 26 for dependant children of insured parents. The shooter could have received the help he needed if that had been available early on assuming his parents were insured.
Of course now the House wants to take that back.

 

[Missizzy]

I would assume that he would be covered as he lived at home, attended college (until recently) and had a mother who worked for the county.

Any word as to the dad's profession? I'm not finding it.

 

[Dr. Know?]

From the article above it says this

With the Loughners at their house, Zach Osler told them the name of the local hotel where their only child was staying, Zach's father said. Jared moved back in, he said.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...fV7I6g?docId=9f0066934a454659a2e5b977cb295733

 

[Nancy2441]

I looked up some more on Arizona MH Laws. He could of been confined if he was found to be a danger to himself or others. This would be determined by a physician, any peace officer, or paramedic (not the parents). I don't remember when he had his issues in school if the police were called.

The law calls for 90 days inpatient treatment if found to be a danger to self.
One hundred eighty days if found to be a danger to others, or found to be persistently
or acutely disabled.

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/36/00540.htm&Title=36&DocType=ARS

 

[i.b.nora]

In the AP article link I posted above and here it is again:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...fV7I6g?docId=9f0066934a454659a2e5b977cb295733

"Randy Loughner apparently has not worked for years — at least outside his home. He did fix up cars. Gayan said he had three "show cars" and two of Jared Lougher's friends said he bought a junker '69 orange Chevrolet Nova and made it pristine.

Amy Loughner got a job with the county parks and recreation department just before Jared was born, and since at least 2002 has been the supervisor for Roy P. Drachman Agua Caliente Park on the outskirts of the city. She earns $25.70 an hour, according to Gwyn Hatcher, Pima County's human resources director."