AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #1

[oceanblueeyes]

That makes a lot of sense. I don't watch any of the national news shows (though I do listen to NPR) and most of the news I get comes from WS! LOL!

Here is the confirmation of the conversation.

It was testified to in the hearing.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20190155&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

Hogle said several members of the Romans family arrived at the funeral home while he was there. He pulled a couple family members aside in an attempt to calm them down, and it was during that time that Romans' wife said her husband called her right after he got home from work. While discussing work and other topics with her husband, she told the officer she could hear the 8-year-old boy in the background yelling at her husband, "Tim, I need you to come in here, something's wrong with dad. Tim, come in the house, something's wrong." Hogel said Ms. Romans insisted the officers talk to the youngster - "He knows something; he was there when something bad happened to my husband. Make sure that they talk to him about this." Ms. Romans said the last thing her husband said to her was that the Romero youngster said something was wrong and he needed to go look into it.

 

[gitana1]

I heard the interview. It did not freak me out and I did not get a chill. He just sounded like a kid to me. Yes, he was not crying and he did not sound upset but I am not sure what that means. When I was 8, my grandmother died. We got the news by telephone. My mom stood at the sink and cried, horrible sobbing. My father wailed (it was his mother who died). My brothers and I ran and hid under the piano in the living room, laughing. I loved my parents (and love them now) immensely. I loved my grandma. I was also an extremely sensitive child. I actually cried once for 10 minutes after stepping on an ant. I felt sorry for it. I could not stand to see anyone in pain or to see my parents upset. So why did I laugh? Kids are strange. They do not always understand the magnitude of what is happening or they do not know how to react. It is not that they do not feel. They just process things differently. I was freaked out, I think and reacted weirdly. I did not really understand death yet. (And I had seen an animal die before).
Perhaps this child is a budding sociopath. It is possible. But, from what we have heard so far, he does not fit the bill. Sociopaths invariably have a history of committing certain acts that fit into a "triangle" of behavior, including firestarting or arson, bedwetting and abusing/killing animals. The kid hunted but I don't think that counts. Budding sociopaths generally have not learned yet, how to hide their bad acts. They have extreme problems relating to other children and often have issues in school. We have heard nothing about anything like that regarding this kid. Also, sociopathic children usually kill people other than their parents. I read a book about children who kill their parents (I'll find it and post the title) which basically stated that in every single case of children who kill their parents that the author researched, the kids were subjected to incredible, horrific abuse. That it, that kids who kill parents do it out of a sense of desperation, rather than for thrills or evil, while kids who kill other people have a different motivation. Patricide is an incredible thing and usually happens for incredible reasons. Lets see what we find out.
In the meantime, we should remember that this is a little boy. He's only 8. My mom still bathed me at that age. He simply does not have the cognitive abilities of an adult. He counts 100% on the adults in his life to provide care for him. He is completely dependent. I do not think we can begin to compare him to an adult.
Also, if he is a budding sociopath, I read somewhere that research has been done showing intensive therapy on children who fit the anti-social profile, works, while it does not in the adult counterparts. Their brains are more malleable. There is hope for a child.
Finally, on the step-mother issue: While I do not think the step-mom hitting the child is an excuse for double murder and I do not believe it was the motive, I do think it is highly inappropriate for any step-parent to punish their step-child, unless they raised them from the time the child was a toddler and the other parent was not around. Almost any expert on child development or combined families will tell you that step parents should leave the discipline to the bio parents. They should set limits, but actually punsihing the child, especially physically, is not the best thing to do. It is crossing a boundary. The fact that Dad actually told the step-mom to spank this child for something Dad apparently was upset about is strange to me, if that happened. It will be interesting (and sad no matter what) to see how this case pans out.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree, not only that Campbell Brown originally said the crime occurred in COLORADO!

I can believe it. It happens over and over again. They just don't have their stuff together.

 

[gitana1]

Here's some info on the DSM-IV's criteria for "conduct disorder" which is basically the child version of anti-social personality disorder, an umbrellla term covering socipaths/psychopaths:
Diagnosis
The diagnostic criteria for Conduct Disorder (codes 312.xx, with xx representing digits which vary depending upon the severity, onset, etc. of the disorder) as listed in the DSM-IV-TR are as follows:

A repetitive and persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights of others or major age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated, as manifested by the presence of three (or more) of the following criteria in the past 12 months, with at least one criterion present in the past 6 months:

Aggression to people and animals

often bullies people, threatens, or intimidates others

often initiates physical fights

has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun) (except for activites such as archery and hunting)

has been physically cruel to people

has been physically cruel to animals

has stolen while confronting a victim (e.g., mugging, purse snatching, extortion, armed robbery)

has forced someone into sexual activity

Destruction of property

has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage.

has deliberately destroyed others' property (other than by fire).

Deceitfulness or theft

has broken into someone else's house, building, or car

often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., "cons" others)

has stolen items of nontrivial value without confronting a victim (e.g., shoplifting, but without breaking and entering; forgery)

Serious violations of rules

often stays out at night despite parental prohibitions, beginning before age 13 years

has run away from home overnight at least twice while living in parental or parental surrogate home (or once without returning for a lengthy period)

is often truant from school, beginning before age 13 years

The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.

If the individual is age 18 years or older, criteria are not met for Antisocial personality disorder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conduct_disorder

I have heard nothing to suggest that this kid has done any of the above with the exception, of course, of the recent horrific murders, but we are talking about a repetitive and persistent pattern of conduct.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I heard the interview. It did not freak me out and I did not get a chill. He just sounded like a kid to me. Yes, he was not crying and he did not sound upset but I am not sure what that means. When I was 8, my grandmother died. We got the news by telephone. My mom stood at the sink and cried, horrible sobbing. My father wailed (it was his mother who died). My brothers and I ran and hid under the piano in the living room, laughing. I loved my parents (and love them now) immensely. I loved my grandma. I was also an extremely sensitive child. I actually cried once for 10 minutes after stepping on an ant. I felt sorry for it. I could not stand to see anyone in pain or to see my parents upset. So why did I laugh? Kids are strange. They do not always understand the magnitude of what is happening or they do not know how to react. It is not that they do not feel. They just process things differently. I was freaked out, I think and reacted weirdly. I did not really understand death yet. (And I had seen an animal die before).
Perhaps this child is a budding sociopath. It is possible. But, from what we have heard so far, he does not fit the bill. Sociopaths invariably have a history of committing certain acts that fit into a "triangle" of behavior, including fire starting or arson, bedwetting and abusing/killing animals. The kid hunted but I don't think that counts. Budding sociopaths generally have not learned yet, how to hide their bad acts. They have extreme problems relating to other children and often have issues in school. We have heard nothing about anything like that regarding this kid. Also, sociopathic children usually kill people other than their parents. I read a book about children who kill their parents (I'll find it and post the title) which basically stated that in every single case of children who kill their parents that the author researched, the kids were subjected to incredible, horrific abuse. That it, that kids who kill parents do it out of a sense of desperation, rather than for thrills or evil, while kids who kill other people have a different motivation. Patricide is an incredible thing and usually happens for incredible reasons. Lets see what we find out.
In the meantime, we should remember that this is a little boy. He's only 8. My mom still bathed me at that age. He simply does not have the cognitive abilities of an adult. He counts 100% on the adults in his life to provide care for him. He is completely dependent. I do not think we can begin to compare him to an adult.
Also, if he is a budding sociopath, I read somewhere that research has been done showing intensive therapy on children who fit the anti-social profile, works, while it does not in the adult counterparts. Their brains are more malleable. There is hope for a child.
Finally, on the step-mother issue: While I do not think the step-mom hitting the child is an excuse for double murder and I do not believe it was the motive, I do think it is highly inappropriate for any step-parent to punish their step-child, unless they raised them from the time the child was a toddler and the other parent was not around. Almost any expert on child development or combined families will tell you that step parents should leave the discipline to the bio parents. They should set limits, but actually punishing the child, especially physically, is not the best thing to do. It is crossing a boundary. The fact that Dad actually told the step-mom to spank this child for something Dad apparently was upset about is strange to me, if that happened. It will be interesting (and sad no matter what) to see how this case pans out.

Do you have a link stating that the child should be seen as "his" or "her" property, belonging only of the biological parent and the step parent can do everything else under the Sun for the child but can't discipline them?

I have never heard of that nor have I lived it with my children. Their step father has been there for them 24/7 every step of the way for 25 years. He has supported them, loved them, cared for them and yes disciplined them if warranted. I certainly don't think it is right that all of a sudden he has no disciplining rights about children he is raising diligently and with the utmost care in his home. I also treated his children (now all of our children) as if they were equals and not set apart from each other. We taught them inclusiveness and equal treatment for all instead of exclusions which would make them think they were somehow different and set apart from each other instead of in our one family unit.

imoo

 

[southcitymom]

Here's some info on the DSM-IV's criteria for "conduct disorder" which is basically the child version of anti-social personality disorder, an umbrellla term covering socipaths/psychopaths:
....(edited for space)

I have heard nothing to suggest that this kid has done any of the above with the exception, of course, of the recent horrific murders, but we are talking about a repetitive and persistent pattern of conduct.

Thanks for posting this, gitana. Do you have any training in this field? I would love to hear from someone who does.

It is true that thus far we have heard nothing about a repetitive and persistant pattern of conduct of those criteria of <redacted>.. Still, I'm sure there is some "psych umbrella" that will catch his case.

My FIL is a psychiatrist and I am definitely planning to chat with him about this matter over Thanksgiving.

 

[southcitymom]

Do you have a link stating that the child should be seen as "his" or "her" property, belonging only of the biological parent and the step parent can do everything else under the Sun for the child but can't discipline them?

I have never heard of that nor have I lived it with my children. Their step father has been there for them 24/7 every step of the way for 25 years. He has supported them, loved them, cared for them and yes disciplined them if warranted. I certainly don't think it is right that all of a sudden he has no disciplining rights about children he is raising diligently and with the utmost care in his home. I also treated his children (now all of our children) as if they were equals and not set apart from each other. We taught them inclusiveness and equal treatment for all instead of exclusions which would make them think they were somehow different and set apart from each other instead of in our one family unit.

imoo

This is what happened for me and my siblings when my father remarried my stepmother. She was - and remains - another mother to me - a mother in all that such a word implies and entails to include discipline.

Now - I would be lying if I said my parents divorce didn't screw me up because it did. And I would be lying if I said the process of forming another family was a breeze because it wasn't. BUT, I always appreciated the inclusiveness, as you call it - in the end, it was that loving inclusiveness that helped me heal from all that change.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

OMG!

This is the entire interview. The entire interview can be found on this site.

http://www.azfamily.com/video/localnews-index.html?nvid=304921

 

[oceanblueeyes]

This is what happened for me and my siblings when my father remarried my stepmother. She was - and remains - another mother to me - a mother in all that such a word implies and entails to include discipline.

Now - I would be lying if I said my parents divorce didn't screw me up because it did. And I would be lying if I said the process of forming another family was a breeze because it wasn't. BUT, I always appreciated the inclusiveness, as you call it - in the end, it was that loving inclusiveness that helped me heal from all that change.

I will always feel it is the best thing we ever did for all of our children.

They use no label of "step" they simply are one brother and four sisters and we are Moma and Daddy.

imoo

 

[chicagofa13]

Along with budding serial killers we also have future thrill killers, spree killers, rapists, amongst us. There are some scary kids out there. I'm always 100 percent freaked out when kids get out of juvie after what seems like 5 minutes of time served. It doesn't seem right. Turning 18 or 21 doesn't mean the kid is "fixed" or safe for society.

 

[liljim]

if you dont know the other details and just watch the interview he appears to be a sweet kid that really has no comprehension of the seriousness of what has happened, whether he did it alone, was there with someone else when it happened, or really just walked in on it afterwards.

it was quite a slap in the face to learn all the rest of the story and realize what this kid has likely done and how he sat there and lied without ever breaking down or anything.

im just not sure if i can be convinced that 8 year olds can be held criminally responsible as adults, i dont think they have the necessary understanding of many issues that are key to deciding this.

i could definitely agree that he quite possibly should never be allowed complete freedom, but i cant see sending him to prison for life, and there is no other practical and reasonable way to handle offenders of this nature that i know of.

 

[mysteriew]

I got a chance to hear part of the interview today. IMO this kid did not murder his father. One phrase stands out to me. He stated he cried for half an hour after he found his father. To me that means two things.

First of all, no 8 year old (esp. a boy) would include crying as a part of his fantasy/plan- and he just wouldn't include it as a part of his plan/alibi. A typical 8 year old plan would cast him in the part of the courageous, hero type. Like he would tell police that he found his father and ran to the neighbors right away. He wouldn't plan emotion into it. The second part is that he said he cried for half an hour. No 8 year old has a sense of time. A half hour to them means nothing, or everything depending on what they are wanting or not wanting to do. That tells me that someone had already talked to the boy, someone had already tried to pin down his activitites, and he was already picking up cues from the investigators on what they wanted to hear. They asked him how long he was beside his father and cried, and he made a guess and said half an hour. They wanted an answer and he wanted to please them.

No he didn't cry during the video. But this kid just found he father dead. He would have been in shock. And maybe he did cry when he found him. Then he went for help, he got help there, turned it over to adults, they got him away from there, and then he got involved in different activities. He has the attention span of an 8 year old, not an adult.

 

[liljim]

mysteriew, are you aware of this as posted above by oceanblueeyes from the following link?

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20190155&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

"Hogle said several members of the Romans family arrived at the funeral home while he was there. He pulled a couple family members aside in an attempt to calm them down, and it was during that time that Romans' wife said her husband called her right after he got home from work. While discussing work and other topics with her husband, she told the officer she could hear the 8-year-old boy in the background yelling at her husband, "Tim, I need you to come in here, something's wrong with dad. Tim, come in the house, something's wrong." Hogel said Ms. Romans insisted the officers talk to the youngster - "He knows something; he was there when something bad happened to my husband. Make sure that they talk to him about this." Ms. Romans said the last thing her husband said to her was that the Romero youngster said something was wrong and he needed to go look into it."

 

[colette]

Mysteriew, I think the "crying for a half an hour" was a way for the kid to account for his time... like why didn't you run to the neighbors when you first found your father's body? Of course all this is BS and we know it by the phone call to the wife just before Mr Roman's murder.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I got a chance to hear part of the interview today. IMO this kid did not murder his father. One phrase stands out to me. He stated he cried for half an hour after he found his father. To me that means two things.

First of all, no 8 year old (esp. a boy) would include crying as a part of his fantasy/plan- and he just wouldn't include it as a part of his plan/alibi. A typical 8 year old plan would cast him in the part of the courageous, hero type. Like he would tell police that he found his father and ran to the neighbors right away. He wouldn't plan emotion into it. The second part is that he said he cried for half an hour. No 8 year old has a sense of time. A half hour to them means nothing, or everything depending on what they are wanting or not wanting to do. That tells me that someone had already talked to the boy, someone had already tried to pin down his activities, and he was already picking up cues from the investigators on what they wanted to hear. They asked him how long he was beside his father and cried, and hI e made a guess and said half an hour. They wanted an answer and he wanted to please them.

No he didn't cry during the video. But this kid just found he father dead. He would have been in shock. And maybe he did cry when he found him. Then he went for help, he got help there, turned it over to adults, they got him away from there, and then he got involved in different activities. He has the attention span of an 8 year old, not an adult.

His tales were very grandiose to me and he never missed a beat. They just got more and more elaborate. The only thing was he couldn't exactly remember what lie he had said and how to repeat it when asked again.

I don't think he was crying at all. He said he nudged his father's body with the toe of his shoe when he found him laying there with blood on his face. If he had been that torn up by his father's death he would have grabbed his father begging him to wake up. His story of crying for 30 minutes (did he check the clock?) was just another tale.

He makes up this lavish tale that they were both shot already and he just shot them again two times each to get them out of their misery. That right there shows this boy is very strange and most likely has some type of disorder but not one that rises to legally insane.

What cannot be refuted is Mrs Romans told the police that very night that her husband had been on the phone with her and she heard <redacted>. calling Tim to come into the home that something bad had happened to his dad. Yet the boy says he found Tim already shot. The last haunting words that Mrs. Romans will remember is her husband telling her he had to go because this boy was calling him and the words she heard this boy say. When they did the interview with the boy the next morning he didn't know she had heard him.

I no more believe he was inside crying over his dad. He was laying in wait until he could coax Tim Romans inside the home to murder him too.

This boy is dangerous and he is very dangerous to society at large if let out at the age of 18 to roam free.

imoo

 

[SoobsinMI]

They use no label of "step" they simply are one brother and four sisters and we are Moma and Daddy.

imoo

I agree with this, as a child of a blended family, and as a parent in a blended family. However, I do agree with the poster when she said that the father should NOT have requested that the stepmother discipline the child for something the father was upset about. But I don't think that should happen in a nuclear family, either.

 

[colette]

Oh ya, oceanblueeyes, I forgot about the "putting him out of his misery" line. That just made me sick.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Oh ya, oceanblueeyes, I forgot about the "putting him out of his misery" line. That just made me sick.

You can tell when the one police officer had had enough. It had to be a sickening feeling for them to know this kid had really done all of this.

Oh yeah, he just shot them twice each because he didn't want them to suffer and just happened to shoot them with his gun that had been used to shoot them the first two times. Unreal and he acts so confident that they are going to believe all those wild tales.

imoo

 

[gitana1]

Do you have a link stating that the child should be seen as "his" or "her" property, belonging only of the biological parent and the step parent can do everything else under the Sun for the child but can't discipline them?

I have never heard of that nor have I lived it with my children. Their step father has been there for them 24/7 every step of the way for 25 years. He has supported them, loved them, cared for them and yes disciplined them if warranted. I certainly don't think it is right that all of a sudden he has no disciplining rights about children he is raising diligently and with the utmost care in his home. I also treated his children (now all of our children) as if they were equals and not set apart from each other. We taught them inclusiveness and equal treatment for all instead of exclusions which would make them think they were somehow different and set apart from each other instead of in our one family unit.

imoo

I'm sorry, where did you think I said that the child "should be seen as 'his' or 'her' property?" I never said that and it is something, as a child advocate, that I fight against - that is, I disagree with the historical perception in law that a child is the chattel (property) of anyone. And, I never said your husband should "all of a sudden" have no disciplining rights to your children. I think that in step families, it is best if the step parents do not begin to assume that role in the first place, unless they are actively raising the child from the time the child is a toddler and the other parent is not in the picture. Let me tell you, if I was divorced and ever heard that my child was being hit by his step parent, that step parent would have a huge, huge problem. That would be the first and last time the step parent would hit my kid.
I believe most or many step parents are lovely with their stepchildren. Nevertheless, there is an inherent danger in allowing a new mate to parent one's children, espcially step-fathers. Biologically, we have roots in animal behavior that can be quite deadly to the offspring of another mate. In countless animal populations, the new male mate will destroy the female's offspring from another male, so he can make room for his own, biological offspring. Of course, we are humans and have the ability to think abstractly, which other animals do not, and that alone helps us to veer away from such behaviors. But, I think there is no doubt, (just look at the numerous stories here in Websleuths), that such behavior does occur among humans as well, in some hideous ways. Like her or hate her, I think Dr. Laura has a point when she admonishes people to stay single after a divorce until their children are grown, to concentrate on the children, not new relationships. She also has pointed out many times that step-fathers, in particular, can be dangerous. Think of Baby Grace, Brooke Bennett, and Baby P, for example. Also, many times, both step moms and dads become jealous of their mates kids and resentful of the child's place in the parent's hearts. Combining these things with the ability to "discipline", especially with hitting, can be very bad fro the child's well being.
Most blended families are not like the Brady Bunch. Kids still have a parent they may feel the step is trying to replace, the kids may resent the step taking over the role of the other parent and very, very often, the kids feel a lack of equality. Especially, for example, when dad lives fulltime with his new wife's kids and only sees his every other weekend. In my practice, I cannot tell you how many times I have seen a client come in and say that everything was great between her and her ex until the new wife came in the picture and decided to control and limit the ability of the parents to co-parent. I can't tell you how many cases I have had with the new mate treating the step kids horribly or trying to alienate them from the other parent. It's great to try not to differentiate between your own and your mate's kids, but I really don't think hitting the step child is a great way to show that child how "equal" he or she is.

 

[gitana1]

Thanks for posting this, gitana. Do you have any training in this field? I would love to hear from someone who does.

It is true that thus far we have heard nothing about a repetitive and persistant pattern of conduct of those criteria of <redacted>.. Still, I'm sure there is some "psych umbrella" that will catch his case.

My FIL is a psychiatrist and I am definitely planning to chat with him about this matter over Thanksgiving.

Hi southcitymom: I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist, but I have training in child development (I was a pre-school teacher and daycre director and went to college for that) and have a library full of books (all of which I have read) on child psych, childhood mental disorders, child criminals, among others. I read like a maniac. I am a family law attorney and child advocate (minor's counsel) here in California and also handle guardianships of minor children and juvenile dependency cases (child abuse neglect). Also, my parents and my brother work in social services handling foster care, etc., and in the course of my work I have read hundreds of what we call section 730 child custody psychological evaluations which include DSM-IV testing of children and adults, so I am very familiar (have to be) with the DSM. It's one he!! of a job!