AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #1

[Julessleuther]

Well, I have wondered myself about neglect. It appears that he came home from school often, with no parent at home. He was only 8, and that is too young to come home along. And, In AZ that is illegal. I had a neighbor who used to have her 9 yr old come home from school to an empty house, while she was sitting at a local bar, and she got in trouble. You would have thought that would wake her up, but nope...6 mths later she was caught shopping at a mall with the 9 yr old locked in a car by herself. My neighbor was arrested and charged and convicted of neglect. She was able to keep her daughter, but had monthly surprise visits from CPS to make sure she was complying with the law. Coming home to an empty house, with unlocked guns? Sounds alittle neglectful to me...

Just because the dad didn't lock his son's gun up and might not have always locked his own gun up doesn't mean that there wasn't parental supervision in the home. There has been nothing said about the boy not being nurtured by his dad and stepmother. From what the neighbors and friends have said the dad was always doing things with his son. We have no idea if the dad was a huggy kissy dad or not. The boy called his stepmother...mom. The dad had raised this boy alone from the time he was 2 yrs old which means that the dad was 23 yrs old when he got custody of him. That says something for the dad. From all accounts this boy was a good kid all around which tells me that dad was doing something right. Kids act out or withdraw when things aren't right at home....especially little kids. This boy APPEARED to be a normal kid.

 

[Julessleuther]

It may not be illegal, but is irresponsible, IMO.

It was not required by AZ law to lock up a gun. This is not unheard of. Many people in rural AZ do exactly as the dad did. The gun used was the boy's own gun.

I don'b think the dad was a gun wielding lunatic, since no one has remotely suggested this.

 

[Julessleuther]

Opps, did not see your post, when I did mine. I agree!

I'm surprised I haven't heard more posters comment on it, but the big red flag for me was the fact that an 8 y/o boy was left unsupervised after school. Besides which, from what it seems (the grandmothers comments) there was free access to guns. I don't care HOW much you trust your 8 y/o, that's just a bad combination.
For any locals out there, could you tell me is this also a normal way of life? Where I come from you DON'T leave a child of that age alone, EVER. Not even to run up to the convenience store. That is most certainly against the law, I believe it would be considered child neglect here, maybe not AZ though.

This boy has committed a horrendous crime and should not just walk away. I DO believe he has to hold responsibility for his actions. BUT I do also believe that parents are responsible for their young children. Had it not been his father who had been shot, and he was left home alone after school and went and shot up a neighbor, I WOULD most def. hold the father responsible. If not for the access to the gun but the general lack of supervision that would make such an action even possible. If your child was shot after school by his 8 y/o neighbor left home alone in a house w/ guns, wouldn't you be upset w/ the parents also? Maybe is just me, and I'm NOT trying to blame the victim, but at the same time as he is the father I think he bears somewhat responsiblity. Had CR been even 14 or so I would not feel as strongly. But 8? We're still accountable for our child actions at that tender age IMO.

As for the trust issue, trusting your kids is a good thing, but so blindly? I have given my teenage son countless talks on drugs and the dangers etc. I trust him as much as a parent can when it comes to those things lol. But would I leave them lying around the house trusting he realized and comprehended my lessons on dangers, risks not to partake in them? I realize drugs illegal, guns not. But the risk factor is the same for me. Why leave them w/ access to something so dangerous? It's the parents job to forsee dangers and remove those risks is it not?

I mean no offense to the hunters out there who leave theirs guns out for personal security reasons. But I ask you if you leave your 8 y/o home alone w/ access to said weapons. Curious to hear responses, opinions to this. Maybe it is normal in some parts to leave young children unsuperivsed for hours, I can't imagine it is, but maybe....

 

[Julessleuther]

The laws must have changed in the past two yrs then, because my neighbor was arrested and convicted of the very same thing, and she was only gone from the house for 2 hours.

While many may think otherwise, according to AZ CPS and the law the father did nothing wrong with either leaving the boy home alone or leaving guns in the house.

It's hard to believe an 8 yr old is capable of killing, but it seems the boy did plan it.

 

[Julessleuther]

The mothers competance may have nothing to do with why the boy is not with her. I am only making a guess here, but AZ law is fairly strict with out of state parenting. What I mean, is that if the mom had to move out of state for a job, or she found another mate that lived out of state, the judge would not necessarily let the boy move with her, especially if he had other family in the AZ area (grandparents, aunts and uncles etc.) The judge may have given her a choice of staying in-state, or moving without the boy. If she chose to move, the father would be awarded custody. It also sounds like the mother may have family in the area, which is where they may be staying for Thanksgiving.

I couldn't agree more Ordinary, in your disagreement over their "assessment". I find it despicable that it is allowable under Arizona law to leave a 6 year old totally unsupervised, as long as it's less than 3 hrs!?! I fully expected there to be stricter guidelines w/ this but apparently not in most states, not to single out AZ.

What I find interesting is that the court found the father, who couldn't even provide adequate supervision (adding he appears to be wonderful and dedicated father in every other aspect of course) more capable than the mother to have custody. That kinda speaks volumes to me about her lack of ability to parent. Unless the court didn't know, mom didn't bring to the attention of the court. Not that it's illegal, but one would think those kind of issues would have a major role in a custody battle.

 

[OneLostGrl]

After I dropped him off at the crisis center...he went into a foster home, with other CHILDREN in the home for about 6 months. At court he was sentenced to a locked RTC for sex offenders for 18 months. After paying for all evaluations ( which I had to get court ordered because DYFS didn't think it was necessary) before court and prior to his rehabilitated release 18 months later I terminated my rights. He went back into fostercare... He did something ...have no idea exactly what.....but landed back in sex offender treatment and was released at 18 this October. Have no idea where he is......I have no legal right to know.

He has threatened repeatedly to kill me & my son.....we ruined his life.... We're kinda worried here and have beefed up security. Was Hoping to move ...but economically it seems impossible now.

OH OH.....example of his ability to manipulate....he managed to somehow talk a therapist (from the Sex Offender Residential ) and at another time a social worker to DRIVE HIM past my house as well as my parents home. We were granted a no contact order and the therapist lost her job.

Oh I have no doubts about his ability to manipulate- I think I told you about my step father having been diagnosed with "Anti-social personality disorder" (the DSM's pretty new name for it LOL) the last time we discussed Psychopaths.

 

[chicagofa13]

http://mobile2.wsj.com/device/artic...ine.wsj.com/article/SB122728078741248013.html

This is an article about a woman in NE who abandoned her 17 year old under the safe haven law (do not want to get into discussion of that horribly written law). She had trouble with the boy from age 6. And finally had to give up 11 years later. It is a heartbreaking story of them trying to help him. Maybe shed some light on kids that just might not be able to be saved and in society. I felt it was relevant to some of the discussion on here regarding juvenile treatment programs.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I see a HUGE difference between an 8 year old and a 16 year old, and their actions. Probably because I have a 7 year old and a 15 yeard old at home right now. They do NOT process things the same way. At all.

Playing devils advocate here for a moment..

And other posters here see a HUGE difference between an innocent little 8 year old boy and an 8 year old psychopathic murderer and their actions. Probably because they have had Psychopaths in their homes.. they do not process things the same way. At all.

Like you, those people have a right to their opinion.

 

[OkGrace]

I have looked and in most states here it seems the age is most often 8 years old.

What is the law in your country?

Many states do not list a specific age but says it should be left up to the individual parent(s) who knows the particular child's abilities.

imoo

I believe in my State (Arkansas) it is 12.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Hi
Quote
Ok, so if there was a shot fired at a screen door, and casings outside, why did none of the neighbors here this going on? I can understand to a certain extent the indoor shots, but at a door or outdoor shots? There are so many puzzling things/missing pieces to this...

I agree.I am curious if any one knows was the shot at the screen door on the inside or outside of the door?Where were the casings found outside?I'm curious why no one heard this too.

 

[Shelby77]

Suzanne, from the court records link, the officer testified that he believed the shot went thru the outside of the door to exit the inside of the house. It's on page 103 if you look at the pg. numbers on the upper right side.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Hi
Thankyou.My links are not coming up.Can you please link me to that.I'm sorry.This is making no sense to me at all.So,someone shot at this man from out side towards the door?Why would this little boy be doing this?I agree,why didn't anyone hear or see this.

suzanne

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Hi
Thankyou.My links are not coming up.Can you please link me to that.I'm sorry.This is making no sense to me at all.So,someone shot at this man from out side towards the door?Why would this little boy be doing this?I agree,why didn't anyone hear or see this.

suzanne

I thought the neighbors across the street did hear gunshots and called 911?

 

[Shelby77]

Here is the link...

http://groups.google.com/group/apacheschighprofile/web/jv2008065?pli=1

The 4 files are all 40 some pages long, so if you do the math you should be able to find page 103 in there, the pg. #'s look to run consecutively...

And I suppose there's always the chance the officer is incorrect in his findings, but it looks like it did indeed come from the outside (the shot) I'm guessing since it was such a low caliber (is that the correct term) gun, that the shot wasn't all that loud.
IIRC tho, there was a witness who heard the shots...or at least one of them. Most likely they heard that particular shot...and just didn't think much of it.
If people are inside, with windows down and have tv, other appliances running etc. I think that would help drown out noise from the outside. I don't make much of the fact that the whole neighborhood didn't realize there was a gun shots going on in that house.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Oh I have no doubts about his ability to manipulate- I think I told you about my step father having been diagnosed with "Anti-social personality disorder" (the DSM's pretty new name for it LOL) the last time we discussed Psychopaths.

Yep, I remember:blowkiss:

 

[MeoW333]

They will know that from the autopsies. They will know exit wounds and entrance wounds. They will find either bullets still lodged in the bodies or if they went completely through the body. If so, they will find the bullet or bullet fragment in the vicinity of the crime scene, mostly likely embedded in something like into a door or wall.



imoo

We can only hope so. The defense attorney asked to have a look and the crime scene; he couldn't since the house had been turned over to the family already. Not a crime scene very long. This was towards the beginning with the first hearing in which the 2 officers that arrived on the scene testified.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Hi
Thankyou.My links are not coming up.Can you please link me to that.I'm sorry.This is making no sense to me at all.So,someone shot at this man from out side towards the door?Why would this little boy be doing this?I agree,why didn't anyone hear or see this.

suzanne

Here is a link that talks about the neighbors hearing the shots.


http://www.santafenewmexican.com/National News/Authorities-sort-out-case-of-8-year-old-suspect

On the night of the shootings, Sauter said, Romero and Romans planned to help a friend fix a chest of drawers. About 5 p.m., neighbors heard three to four "pops," with a delay between each one, according to court transcripts that have been made public. Romero's son told police he saw a white vehicle with rimless back tires speeding away.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Here is the link...

http://groups.google.com/group/apacheschighprofile/web/jv2008065?pli=1

The 4 files are all 40 some pages long, so if you do the math you should be able to find page 103 in there, the pg. #'s look to run consecutively...

And I suppose there's always the chance the officer is incorrect in his findings, but it looks like it did indeed come from the outside (the shot) I'm guessing since it was such a low caliber (is that the correct term) gun, that the shot wasn't all that loud.
IIRC tho, there was a witness who heard the shots...or at least one of them. Most likely they heard that particular shot...and just didn't think much of it.
If people are inside, with windows down and have tv, other appliances running etc. I think that would help drown out noise from the outside. I don't make much of the fact that the whole neighborhood didn't realize there was a gun shots going on in that house.

I agree, Shelby. In some instances some will hear the gunshots and some will not hear anything.

I think why these last round of shots were heard is they were out in the open where sound travels and not shots from inside an enclosed structure, like the home.

imoo

 

[MeoW333]

For those of you agreeing that an 8 year old child shouldn't be left home alone for hours after school, i agree. His paternal grandmother lived in the same town; why not just have him dropped off at her house after school, then his father could pick him up after he got home and "wound down" from working all day.
My grandmother took care of me off and on most of my childhood. If it weren't for her; who's to say where i'd be?
It seems the boy was left to his own devices until his father came home (perhaps he took a nap after work). I would think that children would return home from school around 3pm. His father didn't get home to 5pm or after.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Hi
Thankyou for this link oceanblueeyes.The news paper articles said
QUOTE
Romero and Romans were struck about five times each, authorities said, with a .22-caliber rifle that must be reloaded after every shot.

Can I please ask was the man shot all 5 times outside?So,this little boy or who ever shot these shots did so outside?He or someone had to reload this gun 5 times outside and no one saw this?In the day time?

suzanne