AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #2

[Salem]

Respectfully snipped ~

All we have heard is Tiffany wasn't at home when this happened. The boy in his interview talks about her going to be late coming home that day. Maybe had to work overtime or something?

imoo

So all we have is the boy's statement about where step-mom was? That's not much to go on if the boy was a compulsive liar........

Salem

 

[Shock]

Your timeline is better than. Good job! Salem.

 

[MeoW333]

Ya know, she has been virtually absent through all of this. She was the primary maternal figure in this child's life and he called her "mom" (though we don't know if that was by choice or not). She was one of only 4 who were allowed to visit this child in detention & yet she was off on some trip with friends or family & I've seen no record that she has visited him at all (though I don't know). She went back in the house & had it cleaned (it seems) so quick that further investigations couldn't be contined if they had wanted/needed to.

She does not pass my sniff test and I want to know more about her & what I think could be involvement in this case.

ML, i agree with you, and she does not pass my sniff test completely, either.
She obviously does not have unconditional love for the boy.
I know everyone handles death differently; and we are not privy to a lot of information. If it were my step son who may have murdered my husband, i would still be at his side every step of the way. The boy would be a reminder of the husband and his love (even though she is not his bio mom). You would think she would be more supportive of the boy, instead of out galavanting with friends.
Then we have the grandmother who says she knew that it would happen or something to the effect of that. So obviously a lot of information is out there that we don't know yet.

LE should have focused on more angles initially and investigated different leads. (Not the half cocked interviews they did with coworkers of Mr. Romero and Mr. Romans, either.)

I also think it odd that the crime scene was released so quickly that the defense attorney couldn't even get a look at it. Most likely since the family is friends with some of LE. There was a lot of bungling work done with the investigation which won't hold up in court.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Quote
I also think it odd that the crime scene was released so quickly that the defense attorney couldn't even get a look at it.

and she had it cleaned up so fast.

 

[MeoW333]

I gave the neighbor a minute to go to the house and back to see if a body was there. Not much time for the neighbor to listen to his teenage son, question the boy, walk out of his house, see with his own eyes, walk back to his house, call 911 and make the report. I'm sure it took longer than a minute, but there are only 8 minutes to play with here and technically probably only 7.5 minutes if it took TR and his wife 30 seconds to get through their dialogue.

Salem

It's such a tight timeline to work with it almost seems impossible. I wish there was some way that LE could just take the boy to the range, get him his gun and see how quick he actually is with it.
Also, i wonder what ballistics reports will say on the shell casings (were they fired from the same gun).. i hope they sent them out to ballistics..

If the boy is truly capable of killing 2 grown men within such a short time period with a one shot loader rifle; and being the situation what it is, i'm sure it was due to abuse of some kind (physical, emotional; mental or all three).

If he were a sociopath, he'd have shown prior signs by now.

His lack of emotion when he was discussing the killings could be attributed to him "numbing himself" as a way to handle abuse. Not to mention combined with shock and PTSD.

 

[MeoW333]

Quote
I also think it odd that the crime scene was released so quickly that the defense attorney couldn't even get a look at it.

and she had it cleaned up so fast.

I wonder who exactly cleaned it up? Brain matter and blood on the walls. If someone is recently widowed in such a manner (especially being they were just married in Sept) you would think it would be too much for one to handle.. any family members for that matter (including the boy). It's a very violent means, LE was shock up from it. (They also aren't used to dealing with homicides like that).

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Yeah,Maybe they thought the police was finished with the crime scene.

 

[Salem]

Respectfully snipped ~

~snip~
BB: Um, is it, customary or, I guess, customary or acceptable, in, interrogations or, interviews, however you wanna phrase em, um, to, lie to the, subject, whatever that person is. In order to, well, not in order ta do anything but, just, are you allowed ta lie to the subject? Is that…

TA: Yes.

BB: …something you've been trained ta do?

TA: Yes.

BB: Um, and did you do that in this case?

TA: I believe I did, uh, I believe I did at one point, um, saying that someone saw him, and, um, that was the only time.

BB: And why would you do that if he was still a victim?

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/n...was-detective-for/xEzlYHgNmUGsYs3PAJqelA.cspx

These things are severely problematic and then you have a woman who the child would look at as a "neighbor" doing and saying these things to lead him into such a "confession".

I think it is quite possible he is a victim and not the perp.

I agree 100%! I can not believe they lied to him like that! Someone saw him - WTH!!!!!! Now what is he supposed to do? He gets in trouble for lying alot, so obviously if he says it wasn't him, they will think he is lying because SOMEONE SAW HIM.... What is he supposed to say????:furious::furious:

I'm furious! How could they do that? No way this confession will stand up and no way is it believable. The child said what the police wanted him to say, nothing more, nothing less. If that is what you want to hear - then here it is - I did it. Unbelievable!!!

Salem

 

[MeoW333]

Respectfully snipped ~

I agree 100%! I can not believe they lied to him like that! Someone saw him - WTH!!!!!! Now what is he supposed to do? He gets in trouble for lying alot, so obviously if he says it wasn't him, they will think he is lying because SOMEONE SAW HIM.... What is he supposed to say????:furious::furious:

I'm furious! How could they do that? No way this confession will stand up and no way is it believable. The child said what the police wanted him to say, nothing more, nothing less. If that is what you want to hear - then here it is - I did it. Unbelievable!!!

Salem

They lead the child into the confession; the poor boy is probably used to trying to tell adults what they want to hear so he wouldn't get punished or abused.. imo
Being how they handled the confession so carelessly with a minor involved, it should get thrown out in court.

IMO, i think the lawyer hired the therapist to help the boy deal with PTSD. Whether or not he killed them; the shock of seeing the bodies of his father and the roomer in such a violent manner has to have affected him.

 

[Salem]

It's such a tight timeline to work with it almost seems impossible. I wish there was some way that LE could just take the boy to the range, get him his gun and see how quick he actually is with it.
Also, i wonder what ballistics reports will say on the shell casings (were they fired from the same gun).. i hope they sent them out to ballistics..

If the boy is truly capable of killing 2 grown men within such a short time period with a one shot loader rifle; and being the situation what it is, i'm sure it was due to abuse of some kind (physical, emotional; mental or all three).

If he were a sociopath, he'd have shown prior signs by now.

His lack of emotion when he was discussing the killings could be attributed to him "numbing himself" as a way to handle abuse. Not to mention combined with shock and PTSD.

I agree Meow and what a great idea to take the boy out and show how he handles the gun. They could time him. I think such a test would be very telling. Maybe we should send an email to the defense attorney?

The only "evidence" we have that would show any personality disorders is that somewhere, someone said he is a compulsive liar. I can not find a link to this info to substantiate it - so I don't know if it is true or not. Also his lack of trouble at school is puzzling - even given what his Grandmother said.

His lack of emotion could be based on the shock or the reality that it was NOT "his story" but the story he thought the police would like to hear. IDK

I'm going to have to draw myself a picture. The only way I see this happening is if the kid was in the house shooting - but the bullet entry in the screen door shows he was outside and the angle would indicate that any shots at TR would have hit him from the back - not the chest.

Not making sense - as Spock would say - it is not logical.

Salem

 

[mysteriew]

Found what I was remembering:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/26/20081126stjohns-boy1126-ON.html

snip ~

According to the police records, family members were not surprised when told one day after the slayings that the boy had confessed to murder. Police Chief Roy Melnick says in his report, "I comforted them as best we could. After several minutes, (the boy's grandmother) shouted out in an angry and loud tone, 'I knew this would happen. They were too hard on (the boy). I knew (he) did it. He spent the night in my bed cuddling up to me. I had a feeling he did it. If any eight year old boy is capable of doing this, it's (him).'
"She then started to tell me something and then stopped herself. She took several deep breaths, wanting to tell me more but stopped herself."
Melnick says the grandmother then said the boy's stepmother suspected the child that night.....

snipped...

You know I have had questions with the gm's quote since she said it. Now that I see the whole quote, it bothers me.

First, considering that this is a mother who just lost her adult child, she is not going to say that her son abused his son. And she doesn't, but I do consider that a hint about as strong as any hint that you could expect from a mother that just lost her child.

But then she says she knew the child had done it because he spent the night cuddling up to her. The child just lost his father! If he hadn't done it himself, this is exactly what I would expect an 8 year old child to do. I just don't see that as a sign of guilt. If he had done it, and if he felt that he was justified in his own mind, I can't see the child needing the assurance. 8 yr olds who have done something wrong usually try to distance themselves and act like nothing is wrong.

 

[MeoW333]

You know I have had questions with the gm's quote since she said it. Now that I see the whole quote, it bothers me.

First, considering that this is a mother who just lost her adult child, she is not going to say that her son abused his son. And she doesn't, but I do consider that a hint about as strong as any hint that you could expect from a mother that just lost her child.

But then she says she knew the child had done it because he spent the night cuddling up to her. The child just lost his father! If he hadn't done it himself, this is exactly what I would expect an 8 year old child to do. I just don't see that as a sign of guilt. If he had done it, and if he felt that he was justified in his own mind, I can't see the child needing the assurance. 8 yr olds who have done something wrong usually try to distance themselves and act like nothing is wrong.

I see the cuddling part the same way as if he didn't do it, yet i can also see it as if he did do it, after going through a lot of abuse. If he went through a lot of abuse and did actually commit the crime, then he would also need the assurance, imo. The assurance that the abuse would end, and also that his family would still love him; he is just a child.

 

[MeoW333]

I agree Meow and what a great idea to take the boy out and show how he handles the gun. They could time him. I think such a test would be very telling. Maybe we should send an email to the defense attorney?

The only "evidence" we have that would show any personality disorders is that somewhere, someone said he is a compulsive liar. I can not find a link to this info to substantiate it - so I don't know if it is true or not. Also his lack of trouble at school is puzzling - even given what his Grandmother said.

His lack of emotion could be based on the shock or the reality that it was NOT "his story" but the story he thought the police would like to hear. IDK

I'm going to have to draw myself a picture. The only way I see this happening is if the kid was in the house shooting - but the bullet entry in the screen door shows he was outside and the angle would indicate that any shots at TR would have hit him from the back - not the chest.

Not making sense - as Spock would say - it is not logical.

Salem

That screen door keeps getting at me, too. The boy would have to have been outside. If we knew the height of the door and where the shot entered ( i believe the court transcript said the bullet hole was downward) then i would think the shooter would have to be higher that where the gunshot in the door is.. we'd have to know how tall the boy is as well

 

[chicagofa13]

It seems like the majority of posters here are on the side of the boy and believe he is innocent. I am on the side of OBE, and the few others who think he DID do it. Now if he turns out innocent, I'll be happy to say I'm wrong. IMO LE has no reason to frame up or set up an 8 y/o kid.

So let's say he DID do it and is convicted and serves 5 years juvie. He'll be 14 (since he is almost 9 now) or so when he gets out. Are you all ready for him to live next door or have him sit next to your kid at school? Or he serves less than 10 and he'll be out and attending college or out in the workforce, do you want him with your kids hanging out? Coming over to visit? In 15 years he might be getting married, would you let him date your daughter? All hypothetical, but even if he WAS abused, would you want him with your kids? Knowing he has previously "snapped"? He'll likely come out with a sealed record and possibly a new identity. (IMO no one should ever have a sealed record if they have committed a violent crime, especially murder.) Just food for thought.

 

[SoobsinMI]

It seems like the majority of posters here are on the side of the boy and believe he is innocent. I am on the side of OBE, and the few others who think he DID do it. Now if he turns out innocent, I'll be happy to say I'm wrong. IMO LE has no reason to frame up or set up an 8 y/o kid.

There is another group - some may think he possibly did it, but don't consider him a psychopath just yet. There is WAY too little to go on, given the fact that he's never been a disciplinary problem (that we know of yet) in the past. I just think we know very very little of what actually happened.

As for the police having no reason to "frame" an 8 year old kid....perhaps not. But they may be inept at handling a murder, let alone a double murder. Time will tell.

 

[colette]

It seems like the majority of posters here are on the side of the boy and believe he is innocent. I am on the side of OBE, and the few others who think he DID do it. Now if he turns out innocent, I'll be happy to say I'm wrong. IMO LE has no reason to frame up or set up an 8 y/o kid.

So let's say he DID do it and is convicted and serves 5 years juvie. He'll be 14 (since he is almost 9 now) or so when he gets out. Are you all ready for him to live next door or have him sit next to your kid at school? Or he serves less than 10 and he'll be out and attending college or out in the workforce, do you want him with your kids hanging out? Coming over to visit? In 15 years he might be getting married, would you let him date your daughter? All hypothetical, but even if he WAS abused, would you want him with your kids? Knowing he has previously "snapped"? He'll likely come out with a sealed record and possibly a new identity. (IMO no one should ever have a sealed record if they have committed a violent crime, especially murder.) Just food for thought.

I'm with you Chicago... I wouldn't want that kid anywhere near me or my loved ones.

As far as where stepmom was during the murders, I'm sure that LE has checked that out.
Grandma knew this boy for 8 years, maybe there was something she noticed in his behavior when he was cuddling up that night. Maybe he seemed happy.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

There is another group - some may think he possibly did it, but don't consider him a psychopath just yet. There is WAY too little to go on, given the fact that he's never been a disciplinary problem (that we know of yet) in the past. I just think we know very very little of what actually happened.

As for the police having no reason to "frame" an 8 year old kid....perhaps not. But they may be inept at handling a murder, let alone a double murder. Time will tell.

Agreed. I know some have questioned the possiblity that he did the crime himself considering the amount of shots in a very short period of time. I do not think that means he is innocent of a shooting, but discussing other possiblities that could be out there.

I have not read, with true intent, that LE was trying to frame this child. Only that they are out of their league when it comes to a crime like this. Regardless, I will not toss nor judge this child with a label stamped on his forehead until *all* has been investigated.

There is more to this......

 

[OrdinaryLife]

It seems like the majority of posters here are on the side of the boy and believe he is innocent. I am on the side of OBE, and the few others who think he DID do it. Now if he turns out innocent, I'll be happy to say I'm wrong. IMO LE has no reason to frame up or set up an 8 y/o kid.

So let's say he DID do it and is convicted and serves 5 years juvie. He'll be 14 (since he is almost 9 now) or so when he gets out. Are you all ready for him to live next door or have him sit next to your kid at school? Or he serves less than 10 and he'll be out and attending college or out in the workforce, do you want him with your kids hanging out? Coming over to visit? In 15 years he might be getting married, would you let him date your daughter? All hypothetical, but even if he WAS abused, would you want him with your kids? Knowing he has previously "snapped"? He'll likely come out with a sealed record and possibly a new identity. (IMO no one should ever have a sealed record if they have committed a violent crime, especially murder.) Just food for thought.

I do not believe in a blanket judgment of any child. I do not believe in giving up on them. There are many things we are not aware of due to the gag order as well health/psych evaluations have not been completed.

I cannot look so far into the future of another child. Nor do I think anyone should. Unless there is absolute proof that this one child is beyond help, I simply won't go there.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I wonder who exactly cleaned it up? Brain matter and blood on the walls. If someone is recently widowed in such a manner (especially being they were just married in Sept) you would think it would be too much for one to handle.. any family members for that matter (including the boy). It's a very violent means, LE was shock up from it. (They also aren't used to dealing with homicides like that).

I know where I live the homeowners insurance would cover the cost of bio-hazard clean-up ( special company that does this) and I'm pretty sure LE gets that ball rolling. Atleast they do here.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

I do not believe in a blanket judgment of any child. I do not believe in giving up on them. There are many things we are not aware of due to the gag order as well health/psych evaluations have not been completed.

I cannot look so far into the future of another child. Nor do I think anyone should. Unless there is absolute proof that this one child is beyond help, I simply won't go there.

I agree with this.This is just all really sad.I don't really know what else to say any more.I don't want to give up on him.