AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #3

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #701
He also said he used his shoe to "see if his Dad was alittle bit alive". Since all the shots came from the same gun I think it would take longer if 2 people were involved. One person with a gun has to pass the gun and bullets to the other person, no way. It was one person rapid firing so he could get the job done.
 
  • #702
It seems someone from IS is feeding the Romans family trying to sway them. WHY and WHO on earth would do this. IMO, I doubt the Roman's family is getting their information from the message boards. I'm pretty sure they have access to way more information than we have. They are the victims.
http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/[email protected]&navCatId=3
 
  • #703
What greed did she have when this happened? I highly doubt that Tim Romans even had any life insurance since he worked for a construction outfit at the plant and not the plant itself.

Probable cause is a very low burden to meet. The Judge did not base that he thought probable cause was met, based solely on the confession. The probable cause hearing had several officers testifying in it and JR took the totality of all that was stated and came to his conclusion that it had been met.

There is absolutely no proof that he WASN'T in the home. The gunshot residue found on his shirt and his pants shows more likely he was in the home when the gun was discharged, than it doesn't. The only thing that would have been conclusive toward his innocence is if NO gunshot residue was found on him at all but that was not the case. It is just as LE expected and over three dozen particle was found.

I have been researching criminal cases for almost three decades and I can't remember one other case where the suspect's clothing had this much GSR found and these clothes weren't even taken until the next day. By then a lot of the GSR had shed from his clothing and been rubbed off by loved ones touching him.

imoo

Sorry OBE, not buyin' the GSR test. In some of the previous posts, articles are quoted where many LE agencies have discontinued using the GSR as evidence because it's unreliable. One expert even said that because this was a 'hunting family,' the child could have hung his clothes in the closet and it would have shown GSR.

I'm willing to bet you could test just about anything in that home and it will show GSR, maybe even higher than 3 dozen particles.

When a weapon is discharged, it blasts 10's of 1000's of particles. The murder weapon was fired 10 times in that home just prior to the boy's entrance, there was even 'white smoke' floating in the air. I'm surprised he didn't have more than 3 doz particles.

Just as particles may have flaked off his clothing in between the murders and the SW obtaining the clothing, the child may have even been in contact with the REAL killer, transferring particles from them to the boy or maybe one of his relatives had been in contact with a gun and hugged the boy.

The 10's of 1000's of particles expelled from a fired weapon float to drapes, furniture, carpet, anything within range. The child said he layed on the floor by his dad and wept.

GSR particles may even stay on clothing AFTER being washed. Officers indicated the child's clothes were very dirty. He most likely had worn them, at least the levis, more than once. Looking at the photos of the house and all the dirty clothes laying around, it's most probable he had worn them more than once.

The child would MOST likely have hundreds if not 1000's of particles on his clothing had he discharged the weapon 10 times that day. Any reasonable judge or jury would consider the GSR evidence as unreliable and NOT relevant.

There's NOTHING to indicate the child was WITHIN the home at the time of the murders. NOTHING.

IMHO, the boy's gonna walk. St John's LE need to investigate the crime. They might even find a killer.

Oh, and the 'greed' I talked about. Romans wife was in contact with an attorney within two or three days of the murder. I don't know anyone who's husband died who contacted a lawyer or insurance company within days of their loved one's demise. That's usually the last thing on your mind during the closest days following the death of their loved one.

JMHO
fran

PS...Oh, yeah......the spokesman for the Romans, Big John, is having doubts the child committed the crime. I think more people will see the light as the days pass......fran
 
  • #704
It seems someone from IS is feeding the Romans family trying to sway them. WHY and WHO on earth would do this. IMO, I doubt the Roman's family is getting their information from the message boards. I'm pretty sure they have access to way more information than we have. They are the victims.
http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/[email protected]&navCatId=3

Because John has said he has received emails and sent them to the news station. The news station shows those email and it shows IS and a voice of guy, calling himself Ed, that is talking to John about them.

http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/[email protected]&navCatId=3



imo
 
  • #705
He also said he used his shoe to "see if his Dad was alittle bit alive". Since all the shots came from the same gun I think it would take longer if 2 people were involved. One person with a gun has to pass the gun and bullets to the other person, no way. It was one person rapid firing so he could get the job done.

Yes, and there was not ONE unspent shell found on the floor. So we're supposed to believe that this 8 yo child was able to grab 10 shells, rapid fire killing two grown men, without dropping one live bullett and dropping the two victims before they could get to him.

Think about it. Romans was shot twice in the chest, once each on left and right side. The child was SUPPOSED to have expelled, load, close and shoot this victim from one chest shot to the next without Tim getting to him first.

No way. Either it was two shooters, left and right, or an automatic. Which, there's evidence from witnesses that there's supposed to be another 22 rifle in the home, bigger than the one taken by LE, taking the SAME ammunition, belonging to the grandfather who has a white car,........and the gun is MISSING.

Reasonable doubt.

JMHO
fran
 
  • #706
  • #707
Respectfully snipped ~
Think about it. Romans was shot twice in the chest, once each on left and right side. The child was SUPPOSED to have expelled, load, close and shoot this victim from one chest shot to the next without Tim getting to him first.

JMHO
fran

My bold - according to the reports - the shots were fired somewhere around 3-4 feet from the victims. A grown man could cover this distance in two, maybe three strides - MUCH less time than it would take to reload a gun. If accounts are accurate - Romans walked towards the shots after being shot in the arm - if it was the boy, with a single shot .22, Romans should have been able to get to him before the boy could reload and hit him in the chest the first time, and should have been ON TOP of him by the 3rd shot. Yet Romans is found just outside the front door.... Doesn't make sense in my opinion.

I don't think this child did this - I think someone set him up and has threatened the rest of his world if he tells by saying they will kill mom, grandparents, etc.

I think the local LE needs to stop, take a deep breath, and begin the investigation all over again as if the child did not exist and see where they end up.

Salem

Salem
 
  • #708
Sorry OBE, not buyin' the GSR test. In some of the previous posts, articles are quoted where many LE agencies have discontinued using the GSR as evidence because it's unreliable. One expert even said that because this was a 'hunting family,' the child could have hung his clothes in the closet and it would have shown GSR.

I'm willing to bet you could test just about anything in that home and it will show GSR, maybe even higher than 3 dozen particles.

When a weapon is discharged, it blasts 10's of 1000's of particles. The murder weapon was fired 10 times in that home just prior to the boy's entrance, there was even 'white smoke' floating in the air. I'm surprised he didn't have more than 3 doz particles.

Just as particles may have flaked off his clothing in between the murders and the SW obtaining the clothing, the child may have even been in contact with the REAL killer, transferring particles from them to the boy or maybe one of his relatives had been in contact with a gun and hugged the boy.

The 10's of 1000's of particles expelled from a fired weapon float to drapes, furniture, carpet, anything within range. The child said he layed on the floor by his dad and wept.

GSR particles may even stay on clothing AFTER being washed. Officers indicated the child's clothes were very dirty. He most likely had worn them, at least the levis, more than once. Looking at the photos of the house and all the dirty clothes laying around, it's most probable he had worn them more than once.

The child would MOST likely have hundreds if not 1000's of particles on his clothing had he discharged the weapon 10 times that day. Any reasonable judge or jury would consider the GSR evidence as unreliable and NOT relevant.

There's NOTHING to indicate the child was WITHIN the home at the time of the murders. NOTHING.

IMHO, the boy's gonna walk. St John's LE need to investigate the crime. They might even find a killer.

Oh, and the 'greed' I talked about. Romans wife was in contact with an attorney within two or three days of the murder. I don't know anyone who's husband died who contacted a lawyer or insurance company within days of their loved one's demise. That's usually the last thing on your mind during the closest days following the death of their loved one.

JMHO
fran

PS...Oh, yeah......the spokesman for the Romans, Big John, is having doubts the child committed the crime. I think more people will see the light as the days pass......fran

For every defense expert there is a State expert. So what some say as the reasons why over 3 dozen particles were found on his clothes will vary. I also noticed that some of the comments came from defense attorneys. I did see one of the experts though admit that three dozen particles is a SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT and does show he was there when it happened. So whatever the defense expert opines he will be asked that direct question and if honest he also will say that it is a significant amount.

It is a piece of circumstantial evidence that will be used against him along further circumstantial evidence forthcoming in the next few weeks. I highly doubt a seasoned Judge will buy all of them as mere coincidences. They tried Phil Spector for murder and are going to retry him again and he had one or two GSR particles on him and he was known to fire guns frequently. So thirty six particles or more is an unusual amount especially when the clothing was taken the following day. Only about 10 percent of the GSR that expels will be found, which includes on the victims, the shooter and in the home and I am sure many of the GSR particles expelled around the crime scene on the flooring and furniture so all of it would not land on the shooter.

Do you know of such a case where a suspect had 1000s of GSR particles found on them? There have been murderers who have shot their victims numerous times just like in this case. I have never heard of such case or for that matter as many as three dozen particles being found on a suspect. I would be very interested in reading about those cases. TIA

The "white smoke" came from the defendant. .22 rifles don't have "white smoke" coming out of the barrel when they are fired.

John said "maybe" "might have" had help but he is still thinks that this boy was there when both victims were murdered.

imoo
 
  • #709
I'm not seeing what you are saying about e-mails and someone named Ed in this interview. Is is possible this isn't the interview you are referrencing. Thanks

Sorry, I dont know why it is showing the first part of the interview.

Look on the left side and it says,

Did St. Johns boy accused in double murder act alone?

and click on that one.
 
  • #710
  • #711
The thing about the gunshot residue is that, if there was another shooter involved that was close to the family, the boy had been hugged by, then the residue would also transfer to the boy's clothing as well..
 
  • #712
I don't ever remember that he said he held his dad. He told them he touched him with the toe of his shoe. They specifically asked him did he touch him and he even showed them how he did it.

The 30 minutes is not reasonable. There was no time between the two murders for him to sit beside his dad even for a few minutes much less 30 minutes.




imoo


IMHO, 5 minutes to an 8 yo, can SEEM like 30 minutes. They have no conception of time, or numbers for that matter. Like the child saying 1000 spankings. Try and get an 8 yo to sit and count to 1000. He can't do it for that long, because he doesn't have the patients.

The child did say he layed on the ground 'close' to his dad.

I watched parts of the interrogation of the Crowe boy who confessed to killing his sister. It took many hours of questioning to get him to finally confess, much longer than this child. Of course, the Crowe boy was 14 and not just 8 yo.

FWIW, the Crowe boy was exonerated and the REAL killer caught. DNA and blood evidence proved who the REAL killer was. The confession was bogus.

JMHO
fran
 
  • #713
The thing about the gunshot residue is that, if there was another shooter involved that was close to the family, the boy had been hugged by, then the residue would also transfer to the boy's clothing as well..

EXACTLY!

fran
 
  • #714
Respectfully snipped ~

My bold - according to the reports - the shots were fired somewhere around 3-4 feet from the victims. A grown man could cover this distance in two, maybe three strides - MUCH less time than it would take to reload a gun. If accounts are accurate - Romans walked towards the shots after being shot in the arm - if it was the boy, with a single shot .22, Romans should have been able to get to him before the boy could reload and hit him in the chest the first time, and should have been ON TOP of him by the 3rd shot. Yet Romans is found just outside the front door.... Doesn't make sense in my opinion.

I don't think this child did this - I think someone set him up and has threatened the rest of his world if he tells by saying they will kill mom, grandparents, etc.

I think the local LE needs to stop, take a deep breath, and begin the investigation all over again as if the child did not exist and see where they end up.

Salem

Salem

I totally Agree!

That one officer who questioned the child, the neighbor of the Romeros, said it in her questioning before the judge. When they approached the Romeros the next morning to question the boy again and the grandfather refused and the officers left the child there, she was extremely upset and concerned that the KILLER was in THAT house and that the child's life was in danger!

Maybe she was right?

Whichever, there's too many OTHER people that COULD have done this. Or....someone they may not even have known. Tim was walking around flashing hundred$ in his wallet. What if it was a burglary that went wrong? When the mens' appearance startled them, they after killing both victims, the culprit may have been too scared to stop and get what he came for, but could think of nothing but getting outta' there!

Small white car with black back rims speeding away from the residence,.......fast!

JMHO
fran
 
  • #715
For every defense expert there is a State expert. So what some say as the reasons why over 3 dozen particles were found on his clothes will vary. I also noticed that some of the comments came from defense attorneys. I did see one of the experts though admit that three dozen particles is a SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT and does show he was there when it happened. So whatever the defense expert opines he will be asked that direct question and if honest he also will say that it is a significant amount.

It is a piece of circumstantial evidence that will be used against him along further circumstantial evidence forthcoming in the next few weeks. I highly doubt a seasoned Judge will buy all of them as mere coincidences. They tried Phil Spector for murder and are going to retry him again and he had one or two GSR particles on him and he was known to fire guns frequently. So thirty six particles or more is an unusual amount especially when the clothing was taken the following day. Only about 10 percent of the GSR that expels will be found, which includes on the victims, the shooter and in the home and I am sure many of the GSR particles expelled around the crime scene on the flooring and furniture so all of it would not land on the shooter.

Do you know of such a case where a suspect had 1000s of GSR particles found on them? There have been murderers who have shot their victims numerous times just like in this case. I have never heard of such case or for that matter as many as three dozen particles being found on a suspect. I would be very interested in reading about those cases. TIA

The "white smoke" came from the defendant. .22 rifles don't have "white smoke" coming out of the barrel when they are fired.

John said "maybe" "might have" had help but he is still thinks that this boy was there when both victims were murdered.

imoo

IF MANY agencies are discarding the GSR as evidence at trial, it's too shakey to be reliable. They MAY TRY to use it, but, IMO, a REASONABLE judge or jury won't buy it. The child's clothing COULD have gotten the particles on them just from being in the home. My bet is just about anything in that home has MORE than 3 doz particles of GSR on them. The child only had to lay on the floor near his dad and he would have gotten them on him.

The judge will NOT ignore the evidence this was a hunting family and guns were a way of life, so to speak. Not unusual for the child's clothing to have GSR on them. Even his step mom's clothes would have had GSR on them from living in the same house. Course we'll never know, because I don't believe they checked her clothing. :rolleyes:

I'm looking for John to eventually change his tune that the child was in the home at the time of the killings. He's 1/2 way there, imo.

There's also a MISSING 22 rifle from the home. THAT needs to be explained, along with the multitude of OTHER possible perps.

JMHO
fran
 
  • #716
IF MANY agencies are discarding the GSR as evidence at trial, it's too shakey to be reliable. They MAY TRY to use it, but, IMO, a REASONABLE judge or jury won't buy it. The child's clothing COULD have gotten the particles on them just from being in the home. My bet is just about anything in that home has MORE than 3 doz particles of GSR on them. The child only had to lay on the floor near his dad and he would have gotten them on him.

The judge will NOT ignore the evidence this was a hunting family and guns were a way of life, so to speak. Not unusual for the child's clothing to have GSR on them. Even his step mom's clothes would have had GSR on them from living in the same house. Course we'll never know, because I don't believe they checked her clothing. :rolleyes:

I'm looking for John to eventually change his tune that the child was in the home at the time of the killings. He's 1/2 way there, imo.

There's also a MISSING 22 rifle from the home. THAT needs to be explained, along with the multitude of OTHER possible perps.

JMHO
fran

Many agencies? What agencies except the FBI?

This is a State of Arizona case and GSR is tested by state agencies so what others may not test for is irrelevant in this case. They do test and did. Why do you think there are so many State and defense experts in this field in our country? They testify often in murder cases.

GSR particles found is still paramount in many murder cases throughout this country even in the sophisticated state of California. It was very much in the Phil Spector case and will be in the retrial.

How do you know they didn't check her clothing? How do you know that by now witnesses have come forth that saw her in town that day and she has an iron clad alibi? Are you saying Tiffany Romero is the murderer? Wouldn't her fingerprints be found on the gun and on the box of .22 shells? If that were true don't you think the defense attorneys would be crying to the Judge if that were true?

What if all the .22 casings come back with his fingerprints on them? He wouldn't have touched each one of those bullets in the box if he had used other ones in the past.

The Judge will take the totality of the evidence to form his decision. He will not dismiss one thing before hearing all the evidence results.

I don't think John is convinced of anything except maybe he had help committing these crimes.

imoo
 
  • #717
Respectfully snipped ~

My bold - according to the reports - the shots were fired somewhere around 3-4 feet from the victims. A grown man could cover this distance in two, maybe three strides - MUCH less time than it would take to reload a gun. If accounts are accurate - Romans walked towards the shots after being shot in the arm - if it was the boy, with a single shot .22, Romans should have been able to get to him before the boy could reload and hit him in the chest the first time, and should have been ON TOP of him by the 3rd shot. Yet Romans is found just outside the front door.... Doesn't make sense in my opinion.

I don't think this child did this - I think someone set him up and has threatened the rest of his world if he tells by saying they will kill mom, grandparents, etc.

I think the local LE needs to stop, take a deep breath, and begin the investigation all over again as if the child did not exist and see where they end up. Salem

A child this young would have broken under questioning.
 
  • #718
Does anyone know if they checked out this Amos guy with a white vehicle?
Does anyone have any idea what the boy's grandmother wanted to say to the LE officer but wouldn't and then the grandfather said he wanted to stop by to talk to the officer later? Why would the grandfather's gun be at the Romero's house? Didn't the boy say the gun was kept in a closet and he got it from the cage or did he say he put it on the cage? I wonder if someone was behind the ivy and shot Tim. Or someone could have been pointing a gun at the boy's head and told him to call Tim into the house?
 
  • #719
Oh, one more question. VR was shot in the back apparently as he was going up the stairs. Someone had to have been behind him. I think after the shot in the back he was shot in the head. The shooter would have had to have been at the top of the stairs then wouldn't they? If it was solely the boy who killed him, how did he manage to get past VR on the stairs to shoot him again in the head?
 
  • #720
A child this young would have broken under questioning.

That's exactly the point. A child this age *did* break down. Grownup LE questioning him over and over again. Even making references to someone saw him. 8 year old child is going to break down. 8 year old child + LE grownups= I'll say what they want me to say.

And, not one person was there to protect him or his rights. Pathetic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
97
Guests online
2,426
Total visitors
2,523

Forum statistics

Threads
632,762
Messages
18,631,418
Members
243,289
Latest member
Emcclaksey
Back
Top