AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #3

[Chargergal]

OBE,
I apologize that I was reading too much into this.
CG

 

[Salem]

IF MANY agencies are discarding the GSR as evidence at trial, it's too shakey to be reliable. They MAY TRY to use it, but, IMO, a REASONABLE judge or jury won't buy it. The child's clothing COULD have gotten the particles on them just from being in the home. My bet is just about anything in that home has MORE than 3 doz particles of GSR on them. The child only had to lay on the floor near his dad and he would have gotten them on him.

The judge will NOT ignore the evidence this was a hunting family and guns were a way of life, so to speak. Not unusual for the child's clothing to have GSR on them. Even his step mom's clothes would have had GSR on them from living in the same house. Course we'll never know, because I don't believe they checked her clothing.

I'm looking for John to eventually change his tune that the child was in the home at the time of the killings. He's 1/2 way there, imo.

There's also a MISSING 22 rifle from the home. THAT needs to be explained, along with the multitude of OTHER possible perps.

JMHO
fran

I agree with this. Also, between talking to an avid gun user and reading the brief article written about the GSR - it is my thought that the child should have had VERY LITTLE GSR on his clothing if he was the shooter. Maybe some on his hands and around the edges of his pockets or where ever he kept the bullets for reloading and that's about it. When shooting a rifle, most of the GSR is going to come out the barrel and will disperse from the end of the barrel and is not likely to fall on the child's clothes. The article seemed to imply that the pattern of the GSR on the child's clothes did not match what would be expected if he was the shooter. Granted, the article did NOT say that, but it sure implied it to me. Very "wishy washy" in my opinion.

Salem

 

[Fairy1]

Good point. Apparently, in custody he told a counselor of the 1000 spanklings journal, which, as far as anyone knows, does not exist.

I cringe when I hear people wanting the boy off so much that they suggest the video and testimony should be thrown out and the boy released. There would be no justice for the victims if testimony is thrown out, he is the murderer, and is released.

So far, since confessing, he has not recanted his story that he killed his father and the boarder. IMO he would have done so by now, since he's been evaluated and has been in custody since early Nov. The boy has never mentioned anyone else being involved. Some posters believe he isn't capable of premeditated murder or murder at all, is protecting someone, or did not act alone, but if an evaluation suggested he's too young to understand the charges, IMO he's too young to not confess another scenario and keep such a deep, dark secret.

With all due respect, I wouldn't consider his confession to be "testimony." And, due to the gag order, we don't know if his story has changed since. We do know that his story changed BEFORE the alleged confession.

Confessions made by adults have been thrown out or recanted many, many times. Police interrogations have long been criticized by attorneys and courts alike. I have no problem, whatsoever, seeing this one thrown out and having the case proceed based solely on forensic evidence.

If someone threatened him about telling the truth and he was truly frightened, he could absolutlely keep his mouth shut - even now. At such a young age, I don't believe he can truly understand the magnitude of what has happened - either to his father or to himself.

 

[chiperoni]

I still believe there is a strong possiblity of drugs being an issue in this case. Tim Romans had been arrested for possession of drugs and was a suspected drug dealer. The link is now obsolete but the actual link was posted on this board by Ordinary which I saw. His primary residence was the Apache Reservation but he moved into the accused 8 year old's home with his mother and father. If the 8 year old had access to a .22 rifle did he have access to drugs too? Was the little guy being physically abused? Meth is a big cash cow in that area. These are all questions to be answered in the investigation.

 

[Trino]

I still believe there is a strong possiblity of drugs being an issue in this case. Tim Romans had been arrested for possession of drugs and was a suspected drug dealer. The link is now obsolete but the actual link was posted on this board by Ordinary which I saw. His primary residence was the Apache Reservation but he moved into the accused 8 year old's home with his mother and father. If the 8 year old had access to a .22 rifle did he have access to drugs too? Was the little guy being physically abused? Meth is a big cash cow in that area. These are all questions to be answered in the investigation.

Even the boy's defense attorney has stated there was no abuse.

 

[mostlylurking]

Even the boy's defense attorney has stated there was no abuse.

Yeah, in like the first 36-48 hours of the case & said something like "at this time we have seen no evidence of abuse"..... There has been a GAG order since then and regarding a lot of topics, they are following it. We get little tidbits of reports about filings or motions & statements of supression, etc., but there had been NO NEW TESTIMONY, from anyone for any of us to read. Who really knows if this will become an issue in the defense or a motive for the prosecution. They ask for discovery from each other -- they don't share that discovery with us.

jmo

 

[Linda7NJ]

The child would have been psychically examined & any marks documented in the first 36 hours. It's SOP

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Yeah, in like the first 36-48 hours of the case & said something like "at this time we have seen no evidence of abuse"..... There has been a GAG order since then and regarding a lot of topics, they are following it. We get little tidbits of reports about filings or motions & statements of suppression, etc., but there had been NO NEW TESTIMONY, from anyone for any of us to read. Who really knows if this will become an issue in the defense or a motive for the prosecution. They ask for discovery from each other -- they don't share that discovery with us.

jmo

Even in one of the hearing that was long after the gag order the boy's own attorney made a point to address the Judge to tell him that the defense has never claimed that the boy was abused. The defense attorney told JR that came from the media, not them.

So yes, it was mention in Court long after the gag order was in place.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I still believe there is a strong possibility of drugs being an issue in this case. Tim Romans had been arrested for possession of drugs and was a suspected drug dealer. The link is now obsolete but the actual link was posted on this board by Ordinary which I saw. His primary residence was the Apache Reservation but he moved into the accused 8 year old's home with his mother and father. If the 8 year old had access to a .22 rifle did he have access to drugs too? Was the little guy being physically abused? Meth is a big cash cow in that area. These are all questions to be answered in the investigation.

Yes, I do believe he was arrested in the 90s and was suspected of minor drug dealings. It did not say when he was suspected of those minor drug dealings.

He had not lived with the Romeros long. He first rented a room at a motel in St. Johns and stayed there while he worked at the plant.

He only stayed there during the week with the Romeros, returning to his wife and family on the weekends.

If drugs were found on either victim then Brewer would have asked that question when interviewing the two officers. One iirc, searched Tim Romans personal belongings.

Tim Romans nor Vincent Romero had any trace of alcohol or drugs in their system when they were murdered, per the autopsy.

Meth is a big problem everywhere but it doesn't mean someone does it just because they live in that general area.

I highly doubt there were drugs in the home. The boy even thought people were bad if they smoked cigarettes.

imoo

 

[mostlylurking]

Even in one of the hearing that was long after the gag order the boy's own attorney made a point to address the Judge to tell him that the defense has never claimed that the boy was abused. The defense attorney told JR that came from the media, not them.

So yes, it was mention in Court long after the gag order was in place.

imoo

Ah, yes, I do vaguely remember reading that now. But, I still hold my position. Discovery is between the attorneys & the court & not available to us. His attorney has not ever claimed it publicly but we don't know what has been revealed in the non-public discovery of the legal system.

I'll give you that I could be splitting hairs on this one, but you and I both know from previous brief discussion on abuse and its affects, that the admission of it is sometimes a long time coming.

 

[mostlylurking]

The child would have been psychically examined & any marks documented in the first 36 hours. It's SOP

Verbal and emotional abuse leaves no physical marks.

Also, there is some guideline that I'm sure I will totally hose in this paraphrasing that says something like "... if it doesn't leave a mark that lasts longer than either 5 or 15 minutes....." it doesn't count as physical abuse. But, I would contend, even if its not leaving marks but is happening frequently -- daily, or more, or less --- 3-4 times/week, the frequency of spankings is as abusive possibly as the severety would be if he a child ended up in the hospital.

The fact is, we don't know. We have not been privy to the discovery of the legal process. We don't know what has been found.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Ah, yes, I do vaguely remember reading that now. But, I still hold my position. Discovery is between the attorneys & the court & not available to us. His attorney has not ever claimed it publicly but we don't know what has been revealed in the non-public discovery of the legal system.

I'll give you that I could be splitting hairs on this one, but you and I both know from previous brief discussion on abuse and its affects, that the admission of it is sometimes a long time coming.

Yes, emotional abuse is very devastating but imoo I think that is done more when it is an adult abuser controlling an adult victim.

With child abuse I don't think it just stops with verbal abuse but the abuser will be physically abusive to the child as well. There just seems to be no evidence of physical abuse in this case that I can see. The DA isn't even wanting to use the statements he made to CPR because imo the journal didn't even exist. The boy may know that claims of abuse can make him look better but it seems it is not panning out for him.

I believe that spankings are allowed as long as they do not leave a bruise. They had to check this boy's body out very quickly after they learned he had been given 5 swats the night before. That is SOP.

imoo

 

[Wudge]

They don't need the confession tape. There must be plenty of evidence to convict. I hope they do go to trial instead of plea bargain... so we know what the evidence is.

This is not a case that fits anywhere in our system. This is not a case that a prosecutor can use to make a name for themselves. This is not a case where LE has not bungled the evidence. This is not a case that a wise judge would want in their courtroom. The D.A. will almost assuredly seek a plea deal.

If the defense believes the boy did it, they will want to strike a deal too. No defense attorney would want the boy acquitted and free to commit another crime, because they were not under focused therapy.

Two men are dead. But like it or not, the key question in plea dealings will be: what is best for the boy?

 

[Trino]

Ah, yes, I do vaguely remember reading that now. But, I still hold my position. Discovery is between the attorneys & the court & not available to us. His attorney has not ever claimed it publicly but we don't know what has been revealed in the non-public discovery of the legal system.I'll give you that I could be splitting hairs on this one, but you and I both know from previous brief discussion on abuse and its affects, that the admission of it is sometimes a long time coming.

Neither the school system nor the county has evidence of physical abuse. The boy has no signs, and it does not appear he stated he was abused. The evaluation did not produce anything re: abuse. It's doubtful that anyone is going to come forward and state they abused the boy.

 

[chiperoni]

There are still so many unanswered questions. Tim was a resident on the Apache Reservation which adheres to Apache Law these past few years. Does anyone know what his record has been there? By physical abuse could it have been possible that the 8year old got his hands on drugs in the household? He obiously had access to a rifle. If there were drugs in the household he was living in a very unpredictable scary situation. There is so much more to this story and it has been a rush to judgment from the beginning.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

There are still so many unanswered questions. Tim was a resident on the Apache Reservation which adheres to Apache Law these past few years. Does anyone know what his record has been there? By physical abuse could it have been possible that the 8year old got his hands on drugs in the household? He obviously had access to a rifle. If there were drugs in the household he was living in a very unpredictable scary situation. There is so much more to this story and it has been a rush to judgment from the beginning.

I believe LE did talk to the reservation police. The only thing known is his one drug arrest back in the 90s and that he was suspected at some time or another for minor drug dealings.

I don't think any illegal drugs were found in the Romero home. If that had been the case then Brewer would have questioned the two officers in their interviews because he was asking them what all they found. Those interviews, I believe were done around the 18th of November or later.

imo

 

[Trino]

I believe LE did talk to the reservation police. The only thing known is his one drug arrest back in the 90s and that he was suspected at some time or another for minor drug dealings.

I don't think any illegal drugs were found in the Romero home. If that had been the case then Brewer would have questioned the two officers in their interviews because he was asking them what all they found. Those interviews, I believe were done around the 18th of November or later. imo

From my nearly daily followings of the case, there has been no suggestion that drugs were found in the house. TR had $500 in his wallet, but this does not mean it came from a drug sale.

 

[seashore]

There are still so many unanswered questions. Tim was a resident on the Apache Reservation which adheres to Apache Law these past few years. Does anyone know what his record has been there? By physical abuse could it have been possible that the 8year old got his hands on drugs in the household? He obiously had access to a rifle. If there were drugs in the household he was living in a very unpredictable scary situation. There is so much more to this story and it has been a rush to judgment from the beginning.

That's what I think chiperoni.
He may have been living in a scary situation. Child abuse does not always leave a physical mark. It also has a psychological effect. I can well remember the shear terror I experience growing up. No one had a clue what was going on in my home. No one had any idea that my mother came after me with a bed slat because I was jumping on the bed (not supposed to), and the slat feel out of the frame. Didn't break the slat, but she came after me with it and I ran and fell down the stairs. Didn't leave any physical evidence. She spanked us kids with a kitchen wooden spoon until it broke. I don't know how many wooden spoons she ended up buying. But that didn't leave any physical marks either. There were other instances of abuse. No one had any idea. Not the school, not the neighbors, no one at church. No one. I won't even get into the emotional effect it had on me growing up.
All that to say, physical abuse doesn't always leave a mark.

We truly don't know what went on.

 

[seashore]

Yes, emotional abuse is very devastating but imoo I think that is done more when it is an adult abuser controlling an adult victim.

With child abuse I don't think it just stops with verbal abuse but the abuser will be physically abusive to the child as well. There just seems to be no evidence of physical abuse in this case that I can see. The DA isn't even wanting to use the statements he made to CPR because imo the journal didn't even exist. The boy may know that claims of abuse can make him look better but it seems it is not panning out for him.

I believe that spankings are allowed as long as they do not leave a bruise. They had to check this boy's body out very quickly after they learned he had been given 5 swats the night before. That is SOP.

imoo

oceanblueeyes. Physical abuse does not always leave physical evidence. I can well remember my mother coming after me with a bed slat because I was jumping on my brother's bed (a no no) and the slat fell out of the slot of the frame. Didn't break the slat, but she came after me with it and I ended up falling down the stairs trying to get away from her. Didn't leave any physical marks on me. She spanked us kids with kitchen wooden spoons until they broke. I don't know how many she ended up having to replace. Didn't leave any physical marks. Things like this went on all the time in my house. No body had a clue. Not the school, not the neighbors, not anyone in the church, not a single soul knew anything. The emotional abuse was a result of the physical abuse. Getting slaped because I cried and told not to cry. It was not allowed to express how we felt. This doesn't happen just to adults. It happens to children every single day in this country and nobody has a clue it goes on. The shear terror the child experiences is monstrous. The have no way to cope. They have no idea they can talk to someone about what's happening to them. Children are great pretenders too. They are just fine, nothing happening at home to them. All's right with the world. Just act like what the adults want you to act like. No problem going on that the adults have to worry about. Everything is just fine, like the garden of eden.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

oceanblueeyes. Physical abuse does not always leave physical evidence. I can well remember my mother coming after me with a bed slat because I was jumping on my brother's bed (a no no) and the slat fell out of the slot of the frame. Didn't break the slat, but she came after me with it and I ended up falling down the stairs trying to get away from her. Didn't leave any physical marks on me. She spanked us kids with kitchen wooden spoons until they broke. I don't know how many she ended up having to replace. Didn't leave any physical marks. Things like this went on all the time in my house. No body had a clue. Not the school, not the neighbors, not anyone in the church, not a single soul knew anything. The emotional abuse was a result of the physical abuse. Getting slapped because I cried and told not to cry. It was not allowed to express how we felt. This doesn't happen just to adults. It happens to children every single day in this country and nobody has a clue it goes on. The shear terror the child experiences is monstrous. The have no way to cope. They have no idea they can talk to someone about what's happening to them. Children are great pretenders too. They are just fine, nothing happening at home to them. All's right with the world. Just act like what the adults want you to act like. No problem going on that the adults have to worry about. Everything is just fine, like the garden of eden.

I wished I could have pretended everything was just fine when I was emotionally, physically and sexually abused. All the red flags were there even though I never breathed a word to anyone and protected my abusers secrets out of quaking fear. I was shy, quiet, introverted, sickly and jumped at my own shadow at the least little thing. I wore pants to school to hide my bruises when pants weren't cool.

When I finally exposed my childhood abusers when I was 38 years old, it was only then that family members admitted they felt something was very wrong all along. They were the ones who pretended not to see what was right before them. I even met one of my teachers after then and she told me she had always suspected abuse was happening in my life but at that time people didn't get involved.

imoo