AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #3

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  • #141
  • #142
Oh, for goodness sake. :doh:

Now the people who want {proof} that this child committed this crime before labeling him a murderer are going too far!? :eek:

The people who want {all aspects} of the case investigated have gone too far?:confused:

I'd like to know how many people reading this, just so happen to have a bullet hole in their car? IF you raised your hand, was this an accident? Obviously you didn't end up dead or you wouldn't be reading this, but IF it was NOT an accident, were you afraid of {whoever} shot a hole in your car?

Well, it just so happened that the person who owned this particular vehicle ended up dead along with his friend. Are you willing to just forgeraboutit, without KNOWING the story behind it? That it was or wasn't connected to the double murder?

The bullet hole in the truck was NOT from a 22, the alleged murder weapon.

No questions about that?

The bullet hole in the screen appears it MAY have been from the outside in.

No question about how that could be?

The boy talked about a white car. There's been no mention of that again.

You're satisfied with that?

One of the victims was having an extramarital affair. Often times adultry can result in murder.

You just blow it off without wanting to be "sure" it has nothing to do with the double slaying?

One of the victims was in a heated dispute with people at work and this wasn't a minor incident and appeared it may have been an ongoing argument. This DISPUTE goes back for generations. It's called bad blood.

You just want to ASSume it has absolutely NOTHING to do with this double homicide?

One of the victim's wives was running around to 'parites' just a few short weeks after her husband was brutally murdered.

I realized that people {grieve differently,} but this is a bit much even in my mind. I'd like to know a little more about the 'grieving widow' before I give her a complete pass. Her initial interaction with LE shortly after the crime appeared, to me, to be completely in line with the situation and perhaps even being in shock. But soon thereafter throwing the boy to the wolves and running away and partying,..............doesn't look good, IMO. May be perfectly innocent, maybe not,............but IF she's so willing to throw a small child to the wolves so quickly, is she innocent?

The confession of this 'child' was obviously coerced by LE and MAY NOT even be true.

You're satisfied with letting this child take the rap for two MURDERS, when it's JUST POSSIBLE there's one or more murderers on the loose in St. Johns, Az.?............Oh, yeah,........several professionals who've viewed this alleged confession do NOT think it was a 'valid' confession....'improperly obtained' and such.

NOT only has there not been a trial, the evidence hasn't even come back from the lab.

Are you declaring this child {guilty} with no evidence and no trial?

I don't know if this child committed this crime. Quite frankly, no one does, not even the judge. I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt, as accorded by our Constitution. At least, American adults are afforded innocent until proven guilty. I think this child deserves the same treatement.

JMHO
fran

PS....interesting link.....fran

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/08/12/why-do-innocent-people-confess/

Why Do Innocent People Confess?
 
  • #143
They can just change their names and move somewhere different until it all blows over. They do that for people all the time.

Where would they move that they could not be identified? Their pictures are very visible. Do you suppose an 8/9 yr old would not mention this again?
 
  • #144
From the article Oceanblueeyes posted:
A spokesman for the Romans family said he doesn't believe justice ever will be served in a case that is more focused on the child and his age than the victims.
"No matter what you do, keep him in, let him go, it's a no-win situation," said John Andreas........


That's sure the truth.
 
  • #145
What ever happened to innocent untill proven guilty.
 
  • #146
From the article Oceanblueeyes posted:
A spokesman for the Romans family said he doesn't believe justice ever will be served in a case that is more focused on the child and his age than the victims.
"No matter what you do, keep him in, let him go, it's a no-win situation," said John Andreas........


That's sure the truth.

Thank you and I have to go back and correct my post. I inadvertently said Romero family when I meant to write Romans.

imoo
 
  • #147
  • #148
They will need burden of proof.They need to prove this little boy committed these crimes and they have not yet.With all the mistakes that happened I will not be surprised at all if most of the evidence,confession ect... will be thrown out of court.I do not think this little boy understands what is going on and will be able to defend himself.


WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO GUILTY UNTILL PROVEN INNOCENT?
 
  • #149
The confession, evidence and possible plea deal kinda makes him look guilty.

What Evidence? None of the forensic have come back yet. Other than a coercd...at minimum lead confession nothing else has been mentioned. The boy was not tested for gun powder on his hands because he was not a suspect. They have his clothes but they have no results.
I believe if the state felt they had a solid case there wouldn't be a plea deal. I think Apache County has a target on their back right now so let's hurry up and sweep this under the carpet and get back to our small town existence.
IMHO
K
 
  • #150
I'd say the phone call and the kid calling Mr Roman is the biggest evidence, then the timeline doesn't exactly help the kid. And whose gun did the killings? Oh ya the boy's. All those big guns and the killer picks to use a single shot bolt action 22... come on. Then there is the 1,000 spankings written diary, he probably spelled things out in that.

Then hearing that coldblooded ..I kicked my dad with my foot "to see if he was a little bit alive" and how he put them out of their misery... doesn't exactly help either.
 
  • #151
Excellent point Fran.
Maybe this boy did just snap one day, maybe he was exposed to one too many video games or hunting experiences but an 8 y/o just doesn't wake up one day and say I'm going to kill my father and his friend. Something happened and we may never know but let's pray he gets the help, love and support every kids is entitled to. There was an interesting article that I need to find to post but it is along the lines of "Arizona is killing is childhood".

On a side note, IMHO...everyday run of the mill folks,
don't have drug records (even if 15 years old)
bullet holes in their trucks
fight at local bars
have extra martial affairs
have disagreements at work
Maybe one of the above...but NOT ALL of the above

One thing for sure, this man would not be anywhere near my 8 year old son.

Another observation, Tiffany and Vince were newlyweds...why would they even want a roomate?
Again, Tim is the deceased and not the one on trial, but all of this needs to looked at.
It's kind of like diagnosing an illness, if you don't put all the symptoms together it's hard to make an accurate diagnosis.
K
 
  • #152
I'd say the phone call and the kid calling Mr Roman is the biggest evidence, then the timeline doesn't exactly help the kid. And whose gun did the killings? Oh ya the boy's We don't know that yet. All those big guns and the killer picks to use a single shot bolt action 22... come on. Then there is the 1,000 spankings written diary, he probably spelled things out in that. You give an 8 y/o a lot of credit.

Then hearing that coldblooded ..I kicked my dad with my foot "to see if he was a little bit alive" and how he put them out of their misery... doesn't exactly help either.
Maybe he knows this is what he see his father do when hunts and kills animals.
 
  • #153
sniped...

I think Apache County has a target on their back right now so let's hurry up and sweep this under the carpet and get back to our small town existence.
IMHO
K

Do you seriously believe that they would pin this on an 8 year old boy just to clear the books???
And if he is so innocent why is his lawyer considering the plea bargain and why does he not want anyone to hear what the boy tells a therapist?
 
  • #154
I'd say the phone call and the kid calling Mr Roman is the biggest evidence, then the timeline doesn't exactly help the kid. And whose gun did the killings? Oh ya the boy's. All those big guns and the killer picks to use a single shot bolt action 22... come on. Then there is the 1,000 spankings written diary, he probably spelled things out in that.

Then hearing that coldblooded ..I kicked my dad with my foot "to see if he was a little bit alive" and how he put them out of their misery... doesn't exactly help either.

Mrs. Romans made that statement and I believe that will be considered "hearsay". There is absolutely nothing to prove that is a fact. As far as the gun is concerned, we have yet to have released the forensic evidence that it was, in fact, ~the~ gun used. As well as forensics done on the clothes, etc... A diary written by an 8 year old will be viewed a little differently than a diary written by an adult. We'll have to see how that is ruled on in the future.
 
  • #155
What I am wondering about is When Mr Romans was found shot outside on the front porch there were casings near his body on the ground out front and a different looking casing found between his head and hand.Why would some one shoot him and then go get and use another gun to shoot him again?
 
  • #156
sniped...



Do you seriously believe that they would pin this on an 8 year old boy just to clear the books???
And if he is so innocent why is his lawyer considering the plea bargain and why does he not want anyone to hear what the boy tells a therapist?

Because when he talks to a therapist it could be used against him in a court of law.
 
  • #157
Don't forget his little "diary"... premeditation there. He may have said.. after 1,000 dad dies.
Mr Roman was an innocent witness, so what he had an affair or drank at a bar, ect.

Anyway No one is changing anyone's mind on this board I can see that, but time will tell. Then in the future when this kid kills again or does some crime just think back, oh I guess he wasn't so innocent.
 
  • #158
Interesting article
Here's the highlights. Link is below
I am a pediatrician and the interview was atrocious. If you want to put words in a child’s mouth and manipulate them into confessing to something they didn’t do, all the techniques are illustrated on this video - be nice start out with facts and then move to theoreticals and abstract concepts which you lead on - imply what you want - voila! - you get a confession! Children LOVE to please.

The biggest mistake is that children DO NOT understand the abstract at this age (death, murder, life, love, suffering). Abstract is beyond their grasp. Consequences are beyond their grasp unless they are short term. Premeditation for more than a short time is beyond their grasp and cannot involve the abstract.

The child was learning hunting from his father. Perhaps his father taught him to be humane and put a wounded animal out of its misery because it was “suffering”. The child then was taught to equate “suffering” with the sight of blood. The child could have been equating blood with being wounded and talking about putting the men out of their misery by shooting them, even if the child did not shoot them. Was he talking in the concrete or the abstract; past, present, or future? You can’t take what he said literally!

Words at this age may not connect with actions. They may be used as if in reality but in actuality the child is discribing fantasy, or mixing up past actions with present (shooting a wounded squirral v seeing his dad covered with blood). They don’t communicate precisely. Actions don’t connect with results very well. They are just learning these concepts.

Children are NOT little adults! Shame on everyone who thinks that this interview has ANY inculpatory evidence whatsoever. The child should not be in juvenile jail. He should be home with his mommy.
http://drlindashelton.wordpress.com/category/courts/prosecutorial-corruption/
 
  • #159
sniped...



Do you seriously believe that they would pin this on an 8 year old boy just to clear the books???
And if he is so innocent why is his lawyer considering the plea bargain and why does he not want anyone to hear what the boy tells a therapist?


I think this case was way above the Apache LE. That is not to say they are inept, but this case was above the experience that is needed. I believe they messed up the interview with this child. You have an LE official who is a neighbor (absolutely a bias that never should have happened). I think the DA knows how much could very possibly be tossed out in this case and will not risk a trial. We shall see. All we have been able to do is speculate with what has been made available in the media.

BTW, how is it the the spokesman for the Roman family can talk about this case in the media with the gag order in place????
 
  • #160
Don't forget his little "diary"... premeditation there. He may have said.. after 1,000 dad dies.
Mr Roman was an innocent witness, so what he had an affair or drank at a bar, ect.

Anyway No one is changing anyone's mind on this board I can see that, but time will tell. Then in the future when this kid kills again or does some crime just think back, oh I guess he wasn't so innocent.

I'm sorry if you perceive I was trying to change your mind...I thought it was an adult debate...
 
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