AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #3

[oceanblueeyes]

Yes. Most likely the stepmother....what does that tell you?

The stepmother hasn't spoken out, but what it tells me, is the ones that really knows this boy well, thinks he is capable of doing this.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I agree with everything that you said. There is something besides that confession that led LE to believe that he is the shooter. NONE of us will know anything until all of the evidence is back and then we probably won't know anything until a trial because of the gag order. I don't believe for one second that all of LE set their sights on an 8 yr old boy as the killer just because they wanted to arrest someone or for whatever reason. There is something that led them in that direction.

People seem to forget that there are two men who are dead and two families that are missing their loved ones and are probably having a really rough time during the holidays. I wish people would stop pointing the finger at the two wives. Tim's wife had no reason to lie about what she heard. The new wife wasn't even at home when the murders took place. These two men weren't involved in drugs...if they had been I'm sure that someone would have spoke up by now and there was nothing in their blood at the time of their deaths.

Fighting at the bar...we have no idea what took place there or why. Vincent's wife isn't talking....smart woman...and neither is anyone else that we are aware of. A lot of men get into it with other men at the bars thanks to alcohol. Who knows who started the fight or what it was about. Same about whatever was going on at work. I see that both men still had their jobs. If they were known trouble makers they probably wouldn't have still been working.

This case isn't just about this little boy. I think we all hope that he is innocent and can eventually get back to his life. Let's not forget who the victims are and that they are dead at really young ages. It's a real shame.

Merry Christmas Bobbi!

I have to agree with the Romans' spokesman, Big John, when he has stated that the victims have been lost in this case and it has become more about the defendant.

Every human being on Earth has flaws and frailties. I am sure Tim and Vince had their own but that does not decrease their worthiness or that they were greatly loved and their loss is mourned by those who knew and loved them. I think of Tim Romans two daughters, who always had their daddy there for them. Now a chair will be empty this Christmas and forevermore. Death is so final but I certainly don't have to tell you that. You have felt that great loss and how it can be so devastating.

I think of the Romero family and how sad this Christmas will be for them. Their worlds have been shattered. Their husband/son/brother/uncle/nephew/cousin ripped from their lives in the most tragic way.

We don't even know if this boy will ever be tried for these crimes. We do know that he was able to spending both Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays with his mother. Neither Tim Romans' or Vincent Romero's families will ever be able to do the same. They are only able to visit a graveside. That's all both of these families are left with now and the wonderful memories that will forever be in their hearts, in that special place, that only Tim and Vince can hold.

imoo

 

[fran]

From what I've been able to deem, the ONLY {proof} LE has that this 8 yo child committed these murders is the 'alleged' confession. LE THOUGHT they had {proof} of 'premeditation,' which would be the 'alleged list,' but that has never been found. It appears it is a figment of the 8 yo's imagination or was it put in his head by someone else?

The normal process in Ariz is that LE has 10 days in which to offer {proof} or {evidence} justifying filing charges and continued incarceration of the suspect. As the 'forensics' is not yet available and the alleged confession is in question, the judge ordered a 'stay' on the 10 day rule and ordered competancy tests for the child. These were ordered to see IF the child understands what is going on and WOULD he be COMPETANT enough to assist in his own defense.

In other words, the judge found a way around the law as stated in Arizona, because they have no other {proof} as yet to present, that this child did in fact murder these two men. The only 'alleged evidence' the pros has been able to submit to the defense is the child's alleged confession.

The problems I see in this case, BESIDES the questionable legality of the 'alleged confession' are:

Forensics is not back yet. LE ASSUMES the child's 22 rifle was the murder weapon, because a MAJORITY of the empty shell casings were 22. But,......these casings could also have been fired from a 22 handgun. A 22 handgun holds 10 rounds, which is the exact # of shots fired at the two victims.

LE did NOT confiscate additional weapons that were in the murder home at the time of the crime.

There was ONE shell casing, lying on the ground next to victim Tim, that was NOT a 22.

There was ONE bullet hole in the victim's car, that was outside, that did NOT match the hole that would be left by a 22. Ok, so it's said that the hole was put there from ANOTHER incident at a party. QUESTION? How many parties do you attend where a gun is fired? IF YES, was it just a joke? or was someone firing a WARNING SHOT?

The hole in the screen door was such, it meant it was shot from the OUTSIDE inward and by all appearances, it COULD have been made by something OTHER than a 22.

LE did NOT put out an APB or whatever they call it, for the alleged white car that the victim child stated he saw leaving the scene of the crime.

One of the victims had just asked another woman to marry him and many in the town where he resided THOUGHT he was getting a divorce. Was this news to his wife? There have been MANY murders throughout time for a cheating spouse. This FACT should NOT be handled lightly and SHOULD BE looked at fully, including the victim's wife.

While we all do grieve differently, I believe it highly suspect that the second victim's wife was going to MORE THAN ONE party just three weeks after her husband was brutally murdered. COULD BE totally innocent (although weird, imo), but it SHOULD BE noted and INVESTIGATED.

While LE has stated they have not been able to find 'evidence' of abuse, the child's bio mom has spoken about the incident where she talked to the step-mom about she and Vincent arguing in front of the boy, and the step-mom retaliated against the child. (what goes on in this house, stays in this house) The step-mom continued this type of treatment with the child by listening in on his phone calls with his mom. What else did she do? The bio mom said the boy seemed to change in recent months. Although I am in NO WAY saying this is justification for murder or anything else, this is just a fact that demands that LE looks at more closely, BECAUSE there is murder involved.

BOTH men had been in recent physical altercations with others in MORE THAN ONE setting. Altercations at work AND altercations at a bar. These facts MUST BE looked at very closely. While they may be nothing more than every-day disagreements that humans have day in and day out, the fact that these two men were MURDERED demands that these disagreements and the facts and people involved be looked at with a fine tooth comb.

..................................................................................

I totally understand that there are TWO MURDER victims here and I DO want justice for these men and their families. But what I don't want to see are these men and families being victimized AGAIN and this child's life being ruined by him being WRONGLY accused and convicted of a crime he may very well NOT have committed. Wrong conviction of an innocent child while the REAL killer(s) go free.

In other words, I want TRUTH and JUSTICE.

IF this child did in fact commit this crime, I WANT him to be punished and whatever else they can do with, to, or for him. I've seen too many people start out at a young age and even serve prison terms, but then be unleashed onto society for another 20 years, doing horrible crimes again and again and again, before they're finally caught and sentenced to the rest of their life in prison.

I do NOT want that to happen here, (get away with murder), but I also don't want this child convicted if this is a BOGUS confession, which, IMO, (so far), I believe it is. Experts interviewed say an 8 yo is NOT capable of planning something like this out because his brain isn't fully developed that would give him this type of skill. This child COULD be the exception to that rule, but we MUST be sure.

I'll be interested to see the forensic results and also the reinactment of the crime. How the heck could an 8 yo manage to shoot and reload a weapon, getting the 'drop' on two fully grown and capable men? THAT is probably the BIGGEST question of all.

JMHO
fran

 

[colette]

The bullets around the house was discussed in the documents. They talked about the messiness of the home and the fact that the dad left bullets scattered around the home. Also all the wounds were from a 22.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The bullets around the house was discussed in the documents. They talked about the messiness of the home and the fact that the dad left bullets scattered around the home. Also all the wounds were from a 22.

Yes, you are right. They said none of the other bullets found around the home had been shot or were spent bullet casings.

The only spent bullet casings were the ten .22s which turned out to be the exact amount used on both victims.

imoo

 

[MeoW333]

Did they reuse their shells in that house? That could explain empty shells left around. It was a very messy house. I really hope they have a good ballistics team.

 

[fran]

The bullets around the house was discussed in the documents. They talked about the messiness of the home and the fact that the dad left bullets scattered around the home. Also all the wounds were from a 22.

Yes, there were bullets scattered around the home as well as a NUMBER of additional weapons in the master bedroom, besides the childs 'single action' 22 gun confiscated from atop the wire dog cage.

Why weren't the additional weapons confiscated and inspected? Why wasn't there any ballistic tests done on the weapons from the master bedroom?

I'm sure it's been noted by others that one of the 'evidence photos' displaying a 22 rifle included the owners manual of a Mossberg 22 automatic rifle.

Wouldn't this indicate there is ANOTHER 22 in the home? Or was that gun gone?

Like I also stated previously, a 22 handgun holds 10 rounds, which is the exact # of shots into the two victims.

As they say there's 'no coincidence when it comes to murder,' I'd personally like to see these explained.

I'd also like an explanation of the bullet hole in the door going from outside inwards, as the boy was alleged to have been INSIDE.

I'd also like to know the circumstances of the LARGE gunshot hole in one of the victim's vehicles that was on the scene. I honestly don't know ANYONE that has a gun hole in their vehicle. I'm sure if they did, they'd have quite a story to tell.

JMHO
fran

 

[mostlylurking]

Yes, there were bullets scattered around the home as well as a NUMBER of additional weapons in the master bedroom, besides the childs 'single action' 22 gun confiscated from atop the wire dog cage.

Why weren't the additional weapons confiscated and inspected? Why wasn't there any ballistic tests done on the weapons from the master bedroom?

I'm sure it's been noted by others that one of the 'evidence photos' displaying a 22 rifle included the owners manual of a Mossberg 22 automatic rifle.

Wouldn't this indicate there is ANOTHER 22 in the home? Or was that gun gone?

Like I also stated previously, a 22 handgun holds 10 rounds, which is the exact # of shots into the two victims.

As they say there's 'no coincidence when it comes to murder,' I'd personally like to see these explained.

I'd also like an explanation of the bullet hole in the door going from outside inwards, as the boy was alleged to have been INSIDE.

I'd also like to know the circumstances of the LARGE gunshot hole in one of the victim's vehicles that was on the scene. I honestly don't know ANYONE that has a gun hole in their vehicle. I'm sure if they did, they'd have quite a story to tell.

JMHO
fran

Fran -- first :clap: on your attempts to keep putting out all the unanswered issued and topics that should merit discussion and investigation. Absent answers to any of it, this child should only be a suspect and not charged with anything -- especially under the circumstances of his coerced confession. I don't have it in me to keep up the argument, thus, I mostly lurk.

Second -- I remember, in their testimony at some point, that either DN or TA said that "all the .22s" were removed from the home. Not all the guns, but all the 22s. So, that, for me, begs the question -- where is the Mossberg that goes with the manual that was photographed at the crime scene -- as anonther poster on a different board noted, it also takes exactly 10 rounds. I also want to know what size was the spent casing in the door frame by TR? That has never been mentioned, other than (I think) posters saying that it was a different size. I'm not a gun person, so I don't know.

Last -- in the autopsy, I don't believe that the wounds were described as to what size bullet caused them, were they? Just the quantity of shots & the location & the close range/not close range for the varying number of shots as it applies. And, no real forensics are back yet to verify anything.

 

[fran]

Thank you mostlylurking:blushing:

I agree with you about the child being a 'suspect' and I also agree about the coerced confession. I believe in the end, the confession is going to be thrown out.

I guess I missed the part about "all 22's" being taken from the home. :bang: But I'm still interested in this Mossberg Automatic. As there's now a gag order, AFTER LE has put out anything they can pointing to the boy's possible guilt, we'll have to wait for anything found that is exculpatory.

I too am still interested in the 'shell casing' found by the body of one of the victims. I'm not willing to just blow it off as being a messy house.

There's a boys life at stake here. I know people don't want to consider him a victim, but until there's some solid evidence he did do this crime, I'm not buying this confession.

I'm not sure about the autopsy info. Frankly, I haven't read many of the released info. As a matter of fact, I'm going to have to go now as I'm having company in a few hours. When I get a chance I'll look at the available documents some more. I may not be able to get back until tomorrow or the next day.

'Til then, have a nice Holiday.

JMHO
fran

 

[OrdinaryLife]

Fran -- first :clap: on your attempts to keep putting out all the unanswered issued and topics that should merit discussion and investigation. Absent answers to any of it, this child should only be a suspect and not charged with anything -- especially under the circumstances of his coerced confession. I don't have it in me to keep up the argument, thus, I mostly lurk.

Second -- I remember, in their testimony at some point, that either DN or TA said that "all the .22s" were removed from the home. Not all the guns, but all the 22s. So, that, for me, begs the question -- where is the Mossberg that goes with the manual that was photographed at the crime scene -- as anonther poster on a different board noted, it also takes exactly 10 rounds. I also want to know what size was the spent casing in the door frame by TR? That has never been mentioned, other than (I think) posters saying that it was a different size. I'm not a gun person, so I don't know.

Last -- in the autopsy, I don't believe that the wounds were described as to what size bullet caused them, were they? Just the quantity of shots & the location & the close range/not close range for the varying number of shots as it applies. And, no real forensics are back yet to verify anything.

Fran is one of the most diligent posters I know! This poster never stops evaluating, reading, and is *amazing* at pointing out some things that many miss!!! When I grow up, I want to be just like Fran!!!!:blowkiss:

Okay, back to topic... There were, as Fran points out, other guns in that house. That includes other .22's. I do not think that should be forgotten at all. It will be interesting to read what forensics come from all tested weapons. They may not even be from that house. However, it stills begs for an answer. Hopefully, we'll find out soon.

I have to ask. When did Romero go to his priest concerning giving a gun to his son? Was it earlier this year? I know I asked this a long time ago, but I'm wondering what the time frame was between that and these shootings. I may have missed it when I tried looking it up myself. TIA if anyone has an idea.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

Thank you mostlylurking:blushing:

I agree with you about the child being a 'suspect' and I also agree about the coerced confession. I believe in the end, the confession is going to be thrown out.

I guess I missed the part about "all 22's" being taken from the home. :bang: But I'm still interested in this Mossberg Automatic. As there's now a gag order, AFTER LE has put out anything they can pointing to the boy's possible guilt, we'll have to wait for anything found that is exculpatory.

I too am still interested in the 'shell casing' found by the body of one of the victims. I'm not willing to just blow it off as being a messy house.

There's a boys life at stake here. I know people don't want to consider him a victim, but until there's some solid evidence he did do this crime, I'm not buying this confession.

I'm not sure about the autopsy info. Frankly, I haven't read many of the released info. As a matter of fact, I'm going to have to go now as I'm having company in a few hours. When I get a chance I'll look at the available documents some more. I may not be able to get back until tomorrow or the next day.

'Til then, have a nice Holiday.

JMHO
fran

Speaking for myself, I will *never* take away from a victim or their family the uptmost respect that they deserve. Ever. However, as in all tragic cases, I believe that no stone should be unturned and every single option, thought, and discussion thereof is important for every single conversation concerning a crime. It's not "reaching" nor "blaming" or ever ignoring the victims. It's covering all bases when there are questions that should be asked. I think that is *for* the victims of crime and not against them. We all want what is right for them. *Always* for them.

imvho

 

[colette]

I'm sure LE looked at all the guns. As a gun owner Dad most likely cleaned and oiled his guns after each use. It would be simple to tell if a gun has been recently fired as opposed to one clean and oiled.

 

[mostlylurking]

Regarding the 22s in the house -- from the Brewer/DN questiong pp 48 & 49


BB: Vincent? No idea? Um, well I loo, I looked in the house, and then I also, saw the picture of the house and, when I saw the pictures it [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]appeared [/FONT]that the, police had gone through and run amuck. But is that not accurate? Is the house just dirty?
DN: Um, the upstairs was, quite dirty, um…
BB: I mean, there’s stuff, we’re talkin, all [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]over [/FONT]the place.
DN: Yeah. The upstairs was quite dirty.
BB: Okay. Um, and, and my understanding is that, the, there was run, [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]one [/FONT]room, presumably that’s where Tim, resided…
DN: Yes.
BB: And then the, the, uh, husband and wife resided in the other room, then, and I knew *****’s room.
DN: Mm-hm.
BB: Um, there were, other, a variety of guns in, the parents’ room?
DN: Yes.
BB: And that’s [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]their [/FONT]room, right?
DN: Yes.
BB: Okay. Uh, w-why weren’t any of those seized?
DN: Um, actually, all the .22’s were taken, because there was .22, casings, that were found, next to the bodies.
BB: None ‘a the other weapons were taken?
DN: So, I don’t believe so.
BB: Um, i-i-i, were you, did you, write any of the affidavits fer the search warrant?
DN: No.
BB: And that was all, Rodriguez?
DN: Mm.
BB: Um, and, but you indicated you, participated in some ‘a the search warrants.
DN: Um, the second, search warrant, we did, I participated in, yes.
BB: But that, has not been provided us as far as the, [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]your [/FONT]involvement in that…
DN: Right.
BB: …in (unk)?
DN: Right.

I ask......
How many friggin' 22s does someone need????

 

[OrdinaryLife]

Regarding the 22s in the house -- from the Brewer/DN questiong pp 48 & 49


BB: Vincent? No idea? Um, well I loo, I looked in the house, and then I also, saw the picture of the house and, when I saw the pictures it [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]appeared [/FONT]that the, police had gone through and run amuck. But is that not accurate? Is the house just dirty?
DN: Um, the upstairs was, quite dirty, um…
BB: I mean, there’s stuff, we’re talkin, all [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]over [/FONT]the place.
DN: Yeah. The upstairs was quite dirty.
BB: Okay. Um, and, and my understanding is that, the, there was run, [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]one [/FONT]room, presumably that’s where Tim, resided…
DN: Yes.
BB: And then the, the, uh, husband and wife resided in the other room, then, and I knew *****’s room.
DN: Mm-hm.
BB: Um, there were, other, a variety of guns in, the parents’ room?
DN: Yes.
BB: And that’s [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]their [/FONT]room, right?
DN: Yes.
BB: Okay. Uh, w-why weren’t any of those seized?
DN: Um, actually, all the .22’s were taken, because there was .22, casings, that were found, next to the bodies.
BB: None ‘a the other weapons were taken?
DN: So, I don’t believe so.
BB: Um, i-i-i, were you, did you, write any of the affidavits fer the search warrant?
DN: No.
BB: And that was all, Rodriguez?
DN: Mm.
BB: Um, and, but you indicated you, participated in some ‘a the search warrants.
DN: Um, the second, search warrant, we did, I participated in, yes.
BB: But that, has not been provided us as far as the, [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]your [/FONT]involvement in that…
DN: Right.
BB: …in (unk)?
DN: Right.

I ask......
How many friggin' 22s does someone need????

Apparently, many. I guess many a .22 has some kind of "something" for some gun owners such as in this case. I have no idea since I have *never* held any gun. Some may have a better idea than I in that regard I guess.

 

[MeoW333]

He would feed her horses sometime.

She also said shortly before the murders he and another boy ran a kitten into a culvert and had a stick poking it in the culvert at the cat. She had to get on to them, iirc and told them to leave the cat alone.

I would think in a town of less than 4,000 most everyone knows everyone.

imoo

Do you have a link for that? That is very telling if he was abusing a cat.

 

[Chargergal]

Do you have a link for that? That is very telling if he was abusing a cat.

There was no abusing the cat. See post #472.
Here's a snip of the interview about the cat.

DN: A normal, eight year old kid. I didn’t know his age, but, a normal kid, ya know, just, um, uh, playing with the other kids. The, the biggest thing that comes out in my mind is probably two weeks, before the homicides, um, they chased a cat inta my culvert, and, him and David across the street were, had sticks ‘n stuff and they, and they weren’t terrorizing the cat, lemme make that very clear, they weren’t terrorizing the cat, they wanted the cat out of the culvert and, I told them, leave the cat alone, the cat will come out, ya know, and then they kept playing with im and I went back in the house, and then I was, movin stuff around in my, patrol vehicle, and, I came back out again and, they were still at it with the cat. And I said, guys, come on, the cat will come out as soon as ya leave er alone. And then I went back in the house, and I came back out and I said that’s 56
it, go, guy, get outta here and he was, and they were like, o-kay and, ya know, normal kids.
BB: Okay. Now, were you, so you were, were you in yer uniform?
DN: When I was cleaning out the car? I, yeah.
BB: Okay. Um, so he knew you.
DN: Yes.
BB: And, uh, presumably comfortable with you, to some degree.
DN: Presumably, yeah.
BB: Um, but you didn’t, go over fer, dinner ‘n, you know, it was, limited contact as far as, ya know, he would see you and…
DN: Mm-hm.
BB: …feeding yer horses, I mean, would he do that on his own, or was that sumpum that you would only do when he was…
DN: No, all the…
BB: (crosstalk), when you were there?
DN: All the kids in the neighborhood will, will, walk over, and give my horses straw, and stuff li, my horses are really fat, and, I just, make sure, I don’t care, it really doesn’t bother me, I just make sure they know, that if they, if it’s, a weed er something they pick up off the ground I’m okay with them giving em that, but don’t give em any kind of food, um, I, did tell some ‘a the neighbors, I don’t know if he was with em, they asked me if they could feed em an apple and I said, sure. You ge, ya know, I, apples are okay, but before you give the horse anything you hafta clear it with me, so…
BB: Okay. Awright. Um, I guess, the thing with the cat, wasn’t necessarily concern that they were gonna hurt the cat…
DN: No. No. I…
BB: …er just tryna get the cat.
DN: …I, they, yeah, they wanted the cat, out of the pipe and they were just, kinda havin fun and, the pipe is four foot long, they’re not gonna, the cat can run from a stick this long, I mean, I wasn’t, it never occurred ta me they were even trying ta hurt the cat. It’s just they were, they were, irritating the cat. (laughs)
57
CC: With a stick er a club?
DN: It was a stick (laughs). And to tell ya the truth I don’t remember which kid had the, I don’t think both of em had a stick, I think the one of em did and I can’t remember which one, so, it could’ve been David.
BB: Um, and you indicated before that yer, yer, checking un, uh, under every rock and

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Do you have a link for that? That is very telling if he was abusing a cat.

She didn't say they were trying to abuse the cat, only that they were using a stick poking it in the culvert at the cat. I guess trying to get the cat to run out. Which of course was never going to happen as the cat would be afraid of the stick. That is why she told them to leave the cat alone.

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

mostlylurking, "I ask......
How many friggin' 22s does someone need????"

Well they may have taken the two 22. rifles found there.

Vincent sure wouldn't be using a youth model .22 rifle which would be way too small for an adult.

He mostly like had an adult .22 rifle with a scope on it.

.22 rifles are very common and often owned by gun owners and hunters. He may have even had one that his father or grandfather had passed down to him.

imoo

 

[mostlylurking]

mostlylurking, "I ask......
How many friggin' 22s does someone need????"

Well they may have taken the two 22. rifles found there.

Vincent sure wouldn't be using a youth model .22 rifle which would be way too small for an adult.

He mostly like had an adult .22 rifle with a scope on it.

.22 rifles are very common and often owned by gun owners and hunters. He may have even had one that his father or grandfather had passed down to him.

imoo

Yeah, it was kind of a rhetorical question. The way she said "all the 22s were taken" it makes me think of a truck backing up to the house to haul all two tons of them away, or something.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Yeah, it was kind of a rhetorical question. The way she said "all the 22s were taken" it makes me think of a truck backing up to the house to haul all two tons of them away, or something.

LOL! She should have said there was only one .22 rifle found and that is what they took.

It seems by the 10th hearing that only one .22 rifle was in the home.

Nov 10th Hearing

Brewer: "So you found just one .22 type weapon in the house".

Rodriguez: "Yes, sir".