AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #3

[MeoW333]

I can somewhat understand the judge's concerns. One problem is the therapist would not have to testify. The story said both the mother and grandmother could be called to testify. Why not the therapist?

The therapist would be bound by Hepa laws i would think. It sounds like Brewer wanted the boy to get some therapy, most likely he won't get therapy in juvie since he can't discuss the case.

 

[MeoW333]

The therapist is requested to help the child. Therefore, anything that the therapist/child discuss is privilaged information between them. The DA does have the right to request own court appointed therapist for evaluation I believe. Though, I could be mistaken.....

If Brewer is going for an insanity defense, both prosecutor and defendant sides call 2 different psychiatrists in. (One for defense and one for prosecution) the boy would have to talk to both of them and the information gathered from both psychiatrists would be used in court.

I wish some hot shot lawyer would work pro bono for the boy.

 

[Openmind]

It struck me that he did know. He told them he knew he was going to juvie. Even made me think he had already thought of that beforehand.

I work with kids all day and juvie is not an unusual term for a child to use. I have heard kids say that about the most innocent of acts. I would assume he simply knew he was going to be punished and that is where kids go to be punished.

I am not sure what you mean when you say "no extenuating circumstances" so if I have misunderstood you I apologize in advance.

You mean legally for the State. Or do you mean any mitigating circumstances on the boy's part?

Mitigating circumtances for the boy.

I have no doubt whatsoever that if an adult was the defendant in this case the DA would ask for the death penalty to be applied.

There was premeditation.
There was laying in wait.
There was the use of a firearm to commit the murders.
The heinousness of the crimes.
Double homicides.

But he is a child and a very young child at that.

Because of the defendant's young age, where he more than likely cannot fully assist in his defense, leaves this case in disarray. So if he is deemed age incompetent then the two murdered men nor their families will ever see even a glimpse of justice for their loved ones.

I teach older children than this boy and what they know about the courts is slim to none, and I base that on my brightest and best read students. Sadly, many think Judge Judy or "Law and Order" represents a typical court -- more Judge Judy.


The fact this child was worried about his skateboard, and he thinks the neighbors down the street are bad people because they drive fast and smoke shows his immaturity and a child's limited view of the world. Kids simply do not have the ability to truly understand their actions even if they know they are right or wrong.

There was premeditation.
There was laying in wait.
There was the use of a firearm to commit the murders.
The heinousness of the crimes.

I am thinking of a minister's wife that shot her husband in the back, left him to die, fled with her children, and evetually was sentenced to serve 7 months in jail and the last of that was in therapy. Since her release she has managed to recover her children and her life goes on. If you believe her reasons for her crime, no one knew she was an abused spouse. Who really knows what was going on in the home of this little boy? I am having a hard time assuming the worse about this child when there is still so much unknown about the case. And what punishment is appropriate for a child this young? If you give him therapy, when he does reach an age of accountability, do you then punish him for actions he took before he was rehabilitated or fully understood the consequences of his actions?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I work with kids all day and juvie is not an unusual term for a child to use. I have heard kids say that about the most innocent of acts. I would assume he simply knew he was going to be punished and that is where kids go to be punished.



Mitigating circumstances for the boy.



But he is a child and a very young child at that.



I teach older children than this boy and what they know about the courts is slim to none, and I base that on my brightest and best read students. Sadly, many think Judge Judy or "Law and Order" represents a typical court -- more Judge Judy.


The fact this child was worried about his skateboard, and he thinks the neighbors down the street are bad people because they drive fast and smoke shows his immaturity and a child's limited view of the world. Kids simply do not have the ability to truly understand their actions even if they know they are right or wrong.



I am thinking of a minister's wife that shot her husband in the back, left him to die, fled with her children, and eventually was sentenced to serve 7 months in jail and the last of that was in therapy. Since her release she has managed to recover her children and her life goes on. If you believe her reasons for her crime, no one knew she was an abused spouse. Who really knows what was going on in the home of this little boy? I am having a hard time assuming the worse about this child when there is still so much unknown about the case. And what punishment is appropriate for a child this young? If you give him therapy, when he does reach an age of accountability, do you then punish him for actions he took before he was rehabilitated or fully understood the consequences of his actions?

IMOO, I think the Mary WInkler case was the worst miscarriage of justice to be handed down in a long time and I hope it isn't repeated anytime soon. Even several of her own jurors spoke out about the shameful sentence she was given for murdering her husband. They were not pleased with the way it turned out. In that case it wasn't the defendant's incompetency but the incompetency of the jury to understand the jury instructions. The jury foreman said they did not understand them and asked for guidance from the Judge and all he told them is go back and deliberate. Not one piece of substantiated evidence was ever produced in that courtroom remotely showing she had been abused but that is another case and another discussion.

The laws in Arizona allows for those 8 years or older can be charged with a crime. It is the same age in my state. So it would seem that if they can be charged they then can be found guilty and receive some form of punishment.

This boy is not accused of just killing one person but two. Brewer was quick to tell Judge Roca that the defense has never said the boy was abused but told JR that came solely from the media, not the defense.

I am sure there are many adults too that do not think about the ramifications of their acts. If they gave it in depth thought, then they wouldn't murder others, in the first place.

I think juvenile punishment based upon the acts he committed, therapy and mental counseling is what this child should be given.

IMO, he certainly shouldn't just walk away and receive no punishment at all for murdering two men. That sends the wrong message that the age of the defendant can define who gets justice and who never will.

imo

 

[Linda7NJ]

edited

IMO, he certainly shouldn't just walk away and receive no punishment at all for murdering two men. That sends the wrong message that the age of the defendant can define who gets justice and who never will.

imo

I agree. He definately needs to be punished.

 

[Openmind]

I just want to know what punishment people feel needs to be applied?

And I agree, the Winkler case was poorly handled. If the jury didn't understand their instructions, the court has to take some responsibility for that, as well. Even so, Winkler managed to got her children back.

I am sure there are many adults too that do not think about the ramifications of their acts. If they gave it in depth thought, then they wouldn't murder others, in the first place.

Absolutely true, but they have more life experiences and information to use before they decide to kill. An eight year old does not. I do understand that children are held accountable for their actions. Arizona just found a 12 year old boy guilty of premeditated murder.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090104/ap_on_re_us/mother_killed

I want to know why this child chose this horrific act. There is always a reason whether it is well founded or not. Is it a child's misinterpretation of events, or a frustration to stop some form of abuse. In my lifetime of working with kids, I have never seen a child act badly without some reason. I don't believe in bad seeds, and I have been around some terribly broken and violent children, but when I looked at their homes and the cirucumtances of their lives, I could see why they are what they are.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I just want to know what punishment people feel needs to be applied?

And I agree, the Winkler case was poorly handled. If the jury didn't understand their instructions, the court has to take some responsibility for that, as well. Even so, Winkler managed to got her children back.




Absolutely true, but they have more life experiences and information to use before they decide to kill. An eight year old does not. I do understand that children are held accountable for their actions. Arizona just found a 12 year old boy guilty of premeditated murder.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090104/ap_on_re_us/mother_killed

I want to know why this child chose this horrific act. There is always a reason whether it is well founded or not. Is it a child's misinterpretation of events, or a frustration to stop some form of abuse. In my lifetime of working with kids, I have never seen a child act badly without some reason. I don't believe in bad seeds, and I have been around some terribly broken and violent children, but when I looked at their homes and the circumstances of their lives, I could see why they are what they are.

I am not sure the murders had anything to do with abuse. I highly doubt Tim Romans, who just lived there some during the week and was gone after work often, abused this boy. I believe that Romans was simply killed because he would have been an eye witness.

The link you posted said they found the 12 year old boy guilty of premeditated homicide. Evidently the Judge did not buy that he was abused or he would have lowered the degree to a lessor charge, I would think.

SIERRA VISTA, Ariz. – A 12-year-old boy who fatally shot his mother after an argument over his chores was found guilty of premeditated murder.

I think it is likely that this boy in this case also became frustrated by something. It could have been he was angry about being spanked for not bringing his paperwork home or possibly he had also been put on restriction. It could be a myriad of reasons even trivial, nonsensical ones.

A case in my hometown years ago was similar to the one you linked. He also killed his mother and little five year old sister. His motive? He told LE he was tired of having to do chores and his little sister bugged him and got into his things. He, however was 13 and tried as an adult and was given life.

imo

 

[MeoW333]

I just want to know what punishment people feel needs to be applied?

And I agree, the Winkler case was poorly handled. If the jury didn't understand their instructions, the court has to take some responsibility for that, as well. Even so, Winkler managed to got her children back.




Absolutely true, but they have more life experiences and information to use before they decide to kill. An eight year old does not. I do understand that children are held accountable for their actions. Arizona just found a 12 year old boy guilty of premeditated murder.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090104/ap_on_re_us/mother_killed

I want to know why this child chose this horrific act. There is always a reason whether it is well founded or not. Is it a child's misinterpretation of events, or a frustration to stop some form of abuse. In my lifetime of working with kids, I have never seen a child act badly without some reason. I don't believe in bad seeds, and I have been around some terribly broken and violent children, but when I looked at their homes and the cirucumtances of their lives, I could see why they are what they are.

This boy didn't show any prior signs of conduct disorder, right? Was it confirmed he killed kittens or a rumor?
If he doesn't have conduct disorder, then my guess would be some form of abuse had taken place; environmental factors.

 

[mostlylurking]

This boy didn't show any prior signs of conduct disorder, right? Was it confirmed he killed kittens or a rumor?
If he doesn't have conduct disorder, then my guess would be some form of abuse had taken place; environmental factors.

out of lurkdome
There has never been a rumor about killing kittens. Nevel, or however her name is spelled, said she had seen him an another boy with a stick trying to "get at a cat" that was in a pipe or something. She said she had not thought it to be of any concern at all.
back to lurkdome

 

[seashore]

Hi,
I've been reading this thread for a few days. A few comments I'd like to make.
This boy is not a sociopath, psycopath, or Anti Social disordered as so many believe. Why? He is too young. A child of 8 cannot be diagnosed with those or labeled as such. If he had anything wrong in children's categories, he would be diagnosed with Oppositonal Defiant Disorder. However, he's not that either. Why? There have been no reports of behavior on his part that is part of the criteria to be diagnosed with this. He's been your average run of the mill 8 year old boy.

Second, I read sometime ago that he walked around his neighborhood after school until around 5 on Monday's and Wednesday because his mom didn't get home till around then. Why would a child feel they have to walk around their neighborhood until their mother got home? Why did this boy feel he could not go home on those days until his mother got home? This makes me really suspecioius as to what was going on at home.

Third, spanking is unacceptable for any reason (that's a whole different topic altogether), let alone for an 8 year old forgetting to bring home papers. That is normal for a child to do.

Fourth, in one of the police reports I read that the officer was interviewing fellow coworkers at the plant. There were several people who suggested the LE talk to Amos. He had some sort of beef with one or both of the victims. Amos also had some sort of Ford vehicle (I can't remember what). Guess what color that was? White.

The interview was called off because the boy had just "confessed" I doubt he actually confessed, if fact, he was coerced. According to research that sort of thing, especially children, he was coerced. Did LE ever look furthur into this Amos person and his White vehicle?

This is my opinion.

Thanks,
seashore

 

[Linda7NJ]

Hi,
I've been reading this thread for a few days. A few comments I'd like to make.
This boy is not a sociopath, psychopath, or Anti Social disordered as so many believe. Why? He is too young. A child of 8 cannot be diagnosed with those or labeled as such. If he had anything wrong in children's categories, he would be diagnosed with Oppositional Defiant Disorder. However, he's not that either. Why? There have been no reports of behavior on his part that is part of the criteria to be diagnosed with this. He's been your average run of the mill 8 year old boy.

Second, I read sometime ago that he walked around his neighborhood after school until around 5 on Monday's and Wednesday because his mom didn't get home till around then. Why would a child feel they have to walk around their neighborhood until their mother got home? Why did this boy feel he could not go home on those days until his mother got home? This makes me really suspicious as to what was going on at home.

Third, spanking is unacceptable for any reason (that's a whole different topic altogether), let alone for an 8 year old forgetting to bring home papers. That is normal for a child to do.

Fourth, in one of the police reports I read that the officer was interviewing fellow coworkers at the plant. There were several people who suggested the LE talk to Amos. He had some sort of beef with one or both of the victims. Amos also had some sort of Ford vehicle (I can't remember what). Guess what color that was? White.

The interview was called off because the boy had just "confessed" I doubt he actually confessed, if fact, he was coerced. According to research that sort of thing, especially children, he was coerced. Did LE ever look further into this Amos person and his White vehicle?

This is my opinion.

Thanks,
seashore

Actually he would be diagnosed Conduct Disordered.

You may want to look up Dr. Rober Hare and see what he says.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1019177

Gunshot residue found on boy's clothing.



AP Story

 

[chicagofa13]

The therapist would be bound by Hepa laws i would think. It sounds like Brewer wanted the boy to get some therapy, most likely he won't get therapy in juvie since he can't discuss the case.

I think you mean HIPAA? As with all government docs, it's a fun read...lol.

http://aspe.hhs.gov/admnsimp/pl104191.htm

I can't recall if it refers to court cases, especially juvie, if it even does. I read it for personal reasons, not criminal. And today I don't feel like reading it again!! :bang:

IMO his juvenile status would cover him on privacy, the record is going to be sealed, and the judge the only one allowed to read it.

 

[chicagofa13]

Hi,
I've been reading this thread for a few days. A few comments I'd like to make.
This boy is not a sociopath, psycopath, or Anti Social disordered as so many believe. Why? He is too young. A child of 8 cannot be diagnosed with those or labeled as such. If he had anything wrong in children's categories, he would be diagnosed with Oppositonal Defiant Disorder. However, he's not that either. Why? There have been no reports of behavior on his part that is part of the criteria to be diagnosed with this. He's been your average run of the mill 8 year old boy.

Second, I read sometime ago that he walked around his neighborhood after school until around 5 on Monday's and Wednesday because his mom didn't get home till around then. Why would a child feel they have to walk around their neighborhood until their mother got home? Why did this boy feel he could not go home on those days until his mother got home? This makes me really suspecioius as to what was going on at home.

Third, spanking is unacceptable for any reason (that's a whole different topic altogether), let alone for an 8 year old forgetting to bring home papers. That is normal for a child to do.

Fourth, in one of the police reports I read that the officer was interviewing fellow coworkers at the plant. There were several people who suggested the LE talk to Amos. He had some sort of beef with one or both of the victims. Amos also had some sort of Ford vehicle (I can't remember what). Guess what color that was? White.

The interview was called off because the boy had just "confessed" I doubt he actually confessed, if fact, he was coerced. According to research that sort of thing, especially children, he was coerced. Did LE ever look furthur into this Amos person and his White vehicle?

This is my opinion.

Thanks,
seashore

Welcome seashore. :blowkiss:

While we will disagree on whether or not the boy did it, you will find a lot of strong opinions on this boy here.

I think he wandered around because he's a typical kid, bored and looking for something to do!! Maybe he didn't like sitting alone playing video games? Or liked to socialize in the neighborhood, or be outside? It sounds like his dad wasn't home most days when he got home from school. And he wasn't waiting for his mom to get home, it was the stepmom. So he must have liked/loved her to some extent.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

I just want to know what punishment people feel needs to be applied?

And I agree, the Winkler case was poorly handled. If the jury didn't understand their instructions, the court has to take some responsibility for that, as well. Even so, Winkler managed to got her children back.




Absolutely true, but they have more life experiences and information to use before they decide to kill. An eight year old does not. I do understand that children are held accountable for their actions. Arizona just found a 12 year old boy guilty of premeditated murder.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090104/ap_on_re_us/mother_killed

I want to know why this child chose this horrific act. There is always a reason whether it is well founded or not. Is it a child's misinterpretation of events, or a frustration to stop some form of abuse. In my lifetime of working with kids, I have never seen a child act badly without some reason. I don't believe in bad seeds, and I have been around some terribly broken and violent children, but when I looked at their homes and the cirucumtances of their lives, I could see why they are what they are.

Very well said.I agree with you.

 

[Trino]

Haven't posted in a while...

I'm VERY concerned if the boy is released to his natural mother w/o some sort of rehabilitation plan. Once a month visitation is not the same as living with the boy. Will her out-of-state residency interfere with custody? It seems the court's hands are tied, that they cannot force anything if he is released with prejudice.

IMO the boy should be declared a ward of the state. Certainly, the court and the attorney can come up with a reason for this. Does anyone believe justice would be served if he just walked out the door and went home?

 

[OrdinaryLife]

http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1019177

Gunshot residue found on boy's clothing.



AP Story

I read it and the report is not precise at all on any point. That said, WTH does a "Gag Order" mean when something like this is released? Is it truth or just fodder from *whomever*? Please, someone explain it to me. AZ special laws or something???

Honestly, this makes no sense at all. Who the hell is in charge of this case or has any respect for rulings???? :waitasec: Geez....

 

[fran]

I read it and the report is not precise at all on any point. That said, WTH does a "Gag Order" mean when something like this is released? Is it truth or just fodder from *whomever*? Please, someone explain it to me. AZ special laws or something???

Honestly, this makes no sense at all. Who the hell is in charge of this case or has any respect for rulings???? :waitasec: Geez....

Kinda' puts a different spin on it when you put a second sentence from their report? Appears to me, there wasn't enough traces of gunpowder to prove he actually shot a gun TEN times. Guess this is why people are entitled to a TRIAL and allowed to put up a defense.

IMO, it means the child didn't 'shoot' the gun but may have handled it or been close to a gun being discharged,.................or, IMHO, as the defense will put forth, 'ran into a gunsmoke filled house,' as the child claimed in his ORIGINAL statement.

JMHO
fran

http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1019177

"The report released by prosecutors Monday says the boy might have come into contact with a discharged firearm or was in close proximity to a firearm. "

 

[gitana1]

Hi,
I've been reading this thread for a few days. A few comments I'd like to make.
This boy is not a sociopath, psycopath, or Anti Social disordered as so many believe. Why? He is too young. A child of 8 cannot be diagnosed with those or labeled as such. If he had anything wrong in children's categories, he would be diagnosed with Oppositonal Defiant Disorder. However, he's not that either. Why? There have been no reports of behavior on his part that is part of the criteria to be diagnosed with this. He's been your average run of the mill 8 year old boy.

Second, I read sometime ago that he walked around his neighborhood after school until around 5 on Monday's and Wednesday because his mom didn't get home till around then. Why would a child feel they have to walk around their neighborhood until their mother got home? Why did this boy feel he could not go home on those days until his mother got home? This makes me really suspecioius as to what was going on at home.

Third, spanking is unacceptable for any reason (that's a whole different topic altogether), let alone for an 8 year old forgetting to bring home papers. That is normal for a child to do.

Fourth, in one of the police reports I read that the officer was interviewing fellow coworkers at the plant. There were several people who suggested the LE talk to Amos. He had some sort of beef with one or both of the victims. Amos also had some sort of Ford vehicle (I can't remember what). Guess what color that was? White.

The interview was called off because the boy had just "confessed" I doubt he actually confessed, if fact, he was coerced. According to research that sort of thing, especially children, he was coerced. Did LE ever look furthur into this Amos person and his White vehicle?

This is my opinion.

Thanks,
seashore

Welcome to websleuths! I agree that from what we have heard thus far, this kid does not fit the criteria for oppositional defiant disorder or conduct disorder as they now sometimes label kids who have sociopathic traits. Those kind of kids have a real hard time hiding their behavior, do not do well in school, etc.

 

[STEADFAST]

I agree. He definately needs to be punished.

I think they'd better figure out if he is guilty first. That confession and so much surrounding this case is hinky in the extreme!