AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #3

[SoobsinMI]

LOL I just put this same story in Current Crimes.

And I cant believe it. This 4 year old child was able to shoot a shotgun!

I know this is OT, but I read yesterday of a 2 year old child who was killed when his father let him drive an ATV by himself. Father was distracted by a text message, and the child gunned the ATV and crashed. In the article, the grandmother said "he had shot a .22 rifle earlier in the day!" At TWO years old. :::sigh::::

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,476104,00.html

 

[azmama]

Trino
I understand you're close to the case and those involved, and your opinions reflect what you know about St. Johns, but I don't know that the judge believes a case that happened 225 miles away should be moved to Phoenix.

I agree with you, that no one in the legal community believes the case should be moved, and I don't (think) that I believe that, I should clarify what I meant was that I think the boy is receiving the short end of the stick with the system availability for juveniles in such a small remote town, especially for a crime of this magnitude, even if he is guilty of this horrific crime, I still believe he is a child, and I am afraid of what can happen to him as a result, I know that sounds crazy and conflicted given that I would never say that about an adult, but he is indeed an 8 year old boy, which brings a whole different perspective.
That was what I meant to say, that the LE and judge(s) in the area there were ill equipt to deal with all of this.

Thanks for pointing that out to me.

OBE~lol, thank you for having such a voice of reason! Some things you said I do agree with, and I am not in total disagreement with you at all!

IUPG (which I had to look up), I understand that of course, but I have seen in some doc I read last week that the officers at the LE were talking before questioning, and it seemed to be the concensus that he DID do it, and I think they questioned him accordingly, using those tactics, then came out publicly and tried to say that was not the case. If he was questioned as a witness, they really should not have lied to him as they did, and lead him, with statements like someone saw him leaving the scene, does that make sense? I just want to make sure I am explaining my thought coherently.

I agree 100% that they should have taken his clothing at that time, not waiting and going back for it, that is crazy. I think the LE is making a lot of mistakes in the handling of all of this. And cancelling interviews with people, just because they believe they had their "man"? That is ridiculous and not a thorough investigation, imho.

I read the same about the length of time since a murder had taken place in that town, and also I think we can agree that this is not an "average" murder case, most murders are not children, so there are special circumstances which make it an even more delicate case.

I guess the main thing that is getting to me so much is that this child is not receiving the same services, the same RIGHTS as he would in a large city with a better prepared judicial system, and in a different and well prepared courts system, where juveniles are dealt with every day, things would not be happening like "the clock on the 45 days being stopped", or the issue with this lawyer going back and forth in his motions to the court to get a therapist for this child, and obviously dragging his feet, toying with the court in this way, it just wouldn't happen!
**If he IS guilty of these crimes, it is the small technical things such as those that will get this case appealed and turned over.**

I did not know the details of the gunshot particals, thanks for explaining that, and the details as you explained are significant, especially the comparison you gave!

Thanks for sharing your expertise, and patience, I do appreciate it and am digesting it!

 

[fran]

Gunshot residue dots boy's clothing
Experts say evidence may have been tainted

But independent experts question the significance of both pieces of evidence.

The boy's clothing was not collected until the day after his father and a friend were shot and killed, and his skin was never tested for traces of gunshot residue. The boy, who turned 9 last month, frequently hunted with his father and could have held the box of .22-caliber cartridges or come into contact with residue at any time.

A report from the Bexar County Criminal Investigation Lab in Texas says more than three-dozen particles of lead, antimony and barium were found on a long-sleeved shirt and denim pants the boy wore the day his father and a friend were killed. Michael Martinez, a forensic scientist who analyzed the garments, concluded that the clothing may have come in contact with, or been close to, a discharged firearm.

However, the FBI and other law-enforcement agencies have stopped using gunshot-residue tests because cross-contamination and other problems can lead to dubious conclusions.

Steven Howard, a Michigan attorney and expert on shooting reconstruction, said tens of thousands of microscopic particles are expelled when a firearm is discharged. Upon learning that the St. Johns boy's clothes were collected a day after the crime - and that his skin was not tested at all - Howard criticized investigators. "Number 1, they're stupid," he said. "Number 2, they're stupid. Number 3, they're stupid. . . . This is just a case of poor police work."

..............snip................

Residue controversial

Howard said gunshot residue has become controversial in the forensics world because innocent defendants can be tainted without firing a weapon, especially if they sat in a patrol car, touched a gun or were near the weapon when it was fired. The St. Johns boy was from a hunting family and had been in the room where his father died.

Police records say the boy's pants and shirt were retrieved from a relative's home the day after the slayings. Howard said he would expect to find dozens of particles under those circumstances, "even if he took the clothes and hung them in a closet."


<<<<<<<<<full article at link>>>>>>>>


http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106stjohns.html

 

[seashore]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/doc...RESPONSE TO MOTION TO SUPPRESS STATEMENTS.pdf

this just posted today. I think this shows the DA realizes the boy was coerced into "confessing". IMO

 

[fran]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/doc...RESPONSE TO MOTION TO SUPPRESS STATEMENTS.pdf

this just posted today. I think this shows the DA realizes the boy was coerced into "confessing". IMO

Thank you for the link seashore:

I think I'm going to like this new county attorney. He seems to be quite a bit more 'professional' than the previous persons in charge.

Yay for a VOICE OF REASON!

Alleged confession and statements to DPS OUT!!!!!

FWIW, I agree with the pros disputing the reason for eliminating the 'evidence' gathered from the first SW. I DO want the evidence brought in. Whoever the evidence points to, either to or away from the boy, NEEDS to come in.

Let's get to the truth!

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/doc...ONSE TO MOTION TO SUPPRESS SEARCH WARRANT.pdf

JMHO
fran

 

[fran]

Referring back to the LEAKED lab results that there was GSR evidence located on the child's clothing worn that day, IMO, it's important to note that they fell FAR SHORT of naming the child as the 'shooter.' As a matter of fact, they allowed themselves a way OUT.

Interesting that they LEAKED that there was 'trace GSR' on the child's clothes, yet we haven't heard what their expert said about his competance. Who would like to BET that the pros expert said he's NOT competant?

JMHO
fran


http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1019177

Prosecutors won't use confession of young murder defendant
January 6th, 2009 @ 11:08am
by Jim Cross/KTAR and Associated Press

ST. JOHNS, Ariz. -- Prosecutors in Apache County have agreed not to use statements made by a 9-year-old St. Johns boy as they pursue murder charges again him.
.................snip.....................

Before the hearing, Brewer had said his expert determined the boy is incompetent to stand trial. An expert chosen by prosecutors conducted a separate psychiatric evaluation of the boy on Dec. 22. Conclusions of that exam are not known.

.......................snip.....................

Prosecutors released a report Monday that said gunshot residue was found on the boy's pants and shirt after the shootings. The report, however, did not identify the boy as the shooter and said he might have come into contact with a discharged firearm or been in close proximity to a firearm.

 

[Trino]

Thank you for the link seashore:

I think I'm going to like this new county attorney. He seems to be quite a bit more 'professional' than the previous persons in charge.

Yay for a VOICE OF REASON!

Alleged confession and statements to DPS OUT!!!!! FWIW, I agree with the pros disputing the reason for eliminating the 'evidence' gathered from the first SW. I DO want the evidence brought in. Whoever the evidence points to, either to or away from the boy, NEEDS to come in. Let's get to the truth!

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/doc...ONSE TO MOTION TO SUPPRESS SEARCH WARRANT.pdf JMHOfran

These are items I have not seen addressed.
I don't believe the boy has recanted his story that he killed VR and TR.
I also have not heard that the boy said anything more about a white car.

 

[fran]

These are items I have not seen addressed.
I don't believe the boy has recanted his story that he killed VR and TR.
I also have not heard that the boy said anything more about a white car.

IMHO, the boy doesn't need to recant his bogus confession because it has been thrown out. There's a GAG order in effect, so anything he says can't be disclosed anyway.

IMO, the child's attorney is going to plead INNOCENT, IF they choose to try him. Right now, they're still trying to deem his competancy.

The GAG order would explain why we haven't heard any more about the white car.


IMHO, the problem with this case should NOT center around the child. The problem with this case should center around St. Johns PD.

They NEED to INVESTIGATE!!

The minute they talked that child into confessing, they STOPPED investigating this murder. They turned right around and called their detectives that were out in the field INVESTIGATING and told them to come back in. They solved the case.

The people of St. Johns, Arizona should be afraid.....VERY AFRAID........there's a murder among them, IMHO.

Like I said in an earlier post, St. Johns PD might do something novel, like INVESTIGATE this murder.

JMHO
fran

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I know this is OT, but I read yesterday of a 2 year old child who was killed when his father let him drive an ATV by himself. Father was distracted by a text message, and the child gunned the ATV and crashed. In the article, the grandmother said "he had shot a .22 rifle earlier in the day!" At TWO years old. :::sigh::::

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,476104,00.html

I saw that Soobs. What an idiot. The father had to hold the rifle for the little son and let him pull the trigger. Imo a child that age couldn't even pick up the weapon, I wouldn't think.

That is just pure T stupid to even have a 2 year old around a weapon much less let them fire it.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/doc...RESPONSE TO MOTION TO SUPPRESS STATEMENTS.pdf

this just posted today. I think this shows the DA realizes the boy was coerced into "confessing". IMO

I don't think so. If that was the case he would not specifically mention that he will use the confession if the boy testifies in court. So he is still not letting go of the confession fully.

This is the new County attorney, Whiting, irrc and I think he thinks they can prove their case without the boy's confessions and statements.

Looks like he is keeping Carloyn on as Special Prosecutor.

imoo

 

[Chargergal]

"Also today, the boy was in court again for a brief status conference. Defense attorney Benjamin Brewer pressed the judge to allow the boy to have a photo of his mother in his cell but the judge didn't immediately rule on the request.

The boy's mother had been visiting him regularly, but lives in another state and has returned home. Brewer has said the boy is having a difficult time adjusting."

Cripes...he can't even have a photo of his mother in his cell. Every other prisioner in this country gets to have pictures!

 

[OrdinaryLife]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/doc...RESPONSE TO MOTION TO SUPPRESS STATEMENTS.pdf

this just posted today. I think this shows the DA realizes the boy was coerced into "confessing". IMO

This ruling does not surprise me *at all*! It's as is should be legally.

O/T...Seashore, I *love* your avatar!

 

[OrdinaryLife]

Referring back to the LEAKED lab results that there was GSR evidence located on the child's clothing worn that day, IMO, it's important to note that they fell FAR SHORT of naming the child as the 'shooter.' As a matter of fact, they allowed themselves a way OUT.

Interesting that they LEAKED that there was 'trace GSR' on the child's clothes, yet we haven't heard what their expert said about his competance. Who would like to BET that the pros expert said he's NOT competant?

JMHO
fran


http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1019177

Prosecutors won't use confession of young murder defendant
January 6th, 2009 @ 11:08am
by Jim Cross/KTAR and Associated Press

ST. JOHNS, Ariz. -- Prosecutors in Apache County have agreed not to use statements made by a 9-year-old St. Johns boy as they pursue murder charges again him.
.................snip.....................

Before the hearing, Brewer had said his expert determined the boy is incompetent to stand trial. An expert chosen by prosecutors conducted a separate psychiatric evaluation of the boy on Dec. 22. Conclusions of that exam are not known.

.......................snip.....................

Prosecutors released a report Monday that said gunshot residue was found on the boy's pants and shirt after the shootings. The report, however, did not identify the boy as the shooter and said he might have come into contact with a discharged firearm or been in close proximity to a firearm.

I would sooooo love to know/believe that someone would investigate why this "info" was released considering the gag order. Considering the report that was LEAKED, I do not think there is anything to firmly point to this child as the shooter.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

"Also today, the boy was in court again for a brief status conference. Defense attorney Benjamin Brewer pressed the judge to allow the boy to have a photo of his mother in his cell but the judge didn't immediately rule on the request.

The boy's mother had been visiting him regularly, but lives in another state and has returned home. Brewer has said the boy is having a difficult time adjusting."

Cripes...he can't even have a photo of his mother in his cell. Every other prisioner in this country gets to have pictures!

Yeah, I can see how having a photo of his Mother in his cell could cause such a *HUGE* problem. I can understand why the Judge needs to think about that before making his ruling.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

This ruling does not surprise me *at all*! It's as is should be legally.

O/T...Seashore, I *love* your avatar!

What ruling?

This was a motion entered by the new County Attorney?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I would sooooo love to know/believe that someone would investigate why this "info" was released considering the gag order. Considering the report that was LEAKED, I do not think there is anything to firmly point to this child as the shooter.

Like Brewer released to the media his 100 pages of transcripts when he interviewed the two police officers? Even though they were under a gag order then too.

Once the defense or the State has knowledge of a report then the media can have access to it.

Judge Roca mentions in one of the earliest motions the rights that the media has in all cases.

imoo

 

[OrdinaryLife]

What ruling?

This was a motion entered by the new County Attorney?

Sorry. Was very happy to read motion was made. Got the best of me. Life goes on and I will be sure to be more careful in the future when posting here on this thread.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

Like Brewer released to the media his 100 pages of transcripts when he interviewed the two police officers? Even though they were under a gag order then too.

Once the defense or the State has knowledge of a report then the media can have access to it.

Judge Roca mentions in one of the earliest motions the rights that the media has in all cases.

imoo

And, two wrongs make a right??? No one on either side should be sharing anything. They are. It costs everyone involved. Victims and accused.

 

[seashore]

Thanks OrdinaryLife. I made it myself several years ago for my website.

I don't understand why the boy cannot have a photo of his mother. That is not in the boy's best interest. He has not been found guilty of anything yet. Isn't JD idealy supposed to be to give treatment to the detainees while in their custody? This boy has been tried and conficted without ajudication and sentenced to "treatment" worse than if he were treated as an adult.

The victims deserve justice, however, I don't believe they would want this boy treated as he has been. If the community thought so highly of them, I just don't believe they would want the situation to turn out as it has. I feel so bad for them and for the child with no one he can trust. No one to hold him when he is hurting. No one to hold him to comfort him when he gets confused as to what is going on.

Parents are held accountable for their children's actions. Why is handing children guns not making the parents held accountable when something goes wrong. How many children are killed because they were playing with weapons?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

And, two wrongs make a right??? No one on either side should be sharing anything. They are. It costs everyone involved. Victims and accused.

I am not so sure it does in this particular case. There is no jury trial so therefore there is no jury pool to taint, one way or the other.

imoo