AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #3

[oceanblueeyes]

Sorry. Was very happy to read motion was made. Got the best of me. Life goes on and I will be sure to be more careful in the future when posting here on this thread.

LOL, no, I thought I had missed that JR had ruled on it. But he isn't going to rule on any of these issues until the competency evaluation is done, right?

imo

 

[fran]

I'm not an attorney but if it were me, and I COULD, I'd file a motion to dismiss. I mean the only probable cause they had in the first place was the child's alleged confession. They're filing to remove the bogus confession, there goes their probable cause.

Tim's wife's statement that she heard the child is clearly unreliable. At first she told LE 'Tim said the child was calling him,' which meant she didn't hear directly the child's voice. It wasn't until the second time she talked to LE that she claimed she directly heard the child's voice calling Tim. Of course right after that she lawyered up and is now refusing to talk to LE, PLUS, she has an ulterior motive,..........it's called GREED.

Either she's lying about hearing him or the investigating officers are lying. Either way, there's absolutely NO PROOF this child was even in the home at the time of the murders.

JMHO
fran

 

[southcitymom]

I'm not an attorney but if it were me, and I COULD, I'd file a motion to dismiss. I mean the only probable cause they had in the first place was the child's alleged confession. They're filing to remove the bogus confession, there goes their probable cause.

Tim's wife's statement that she heard the child is clearly unreliable. At first she told LE 'Tim said the child was calling him,' which meant she didn't hear directly the child's voice. It wasn't until the second time she talked to LE that she claimed she directly heard the child's voice calling Tim. Of course right after that she lawyered up and is now refusing to talk to LE, PLUS, she has an ulterior motive,..........it's called GREED.

Either she's lying about hearing him or the investigating officers are lying. Either way, there's absolutely NO PROOF this child was even in the home at the time of the murders.

JMHO
fran

Me too - good attys do that if they have cause.

It still seems to me that this child is the person who killed these men. However, I was confused to read that he can't have a picture of his Mom. Where's the logic in that?

 

[southcitymom]

Good Morning, azmama.

Everyone has their own opinions. I just don't see anything that makes me think he is innocent of this crime, sorry. IUPG is a judicial standard that must be given to a defendant, by jurors or a Judge that sits on a case. It does not apply to the pubic at large. We are not bound under any laws that say we have to presume anything.

I will be the first to say, that LE dropped the ball the very first night when the murders occurred. No one is ever ruled out as a suspect when a case first happens. They should have immediately taken his clothing, shoes and done GSR testing on his hands that night, without fail, instead of assuming he was just a witness to the crimes. I agree that is small town mentality sometimes when it comes to the police.

I respectfully don't have the same interpretation of the confession as you do. This boy was actually leading the two female officers many times. They couldn't keep up with all he was saying because after he said one thing then he would say something else that contradicted it. I think because they were small town officers they were the ones naive and most of the time they let the kid lead the conversation and he seemed to enjoy doing that and was quite talkative. But when suspects are allowed to chatter on they will say thing that will come back to haunt them when the evidence starts coming back in.

While the three dozen gunshot particles found is debatable it is a significant amount especially taking into account that he had already come in contact with many family members after the murder, which would help to remove some of them as he hugged and touch others. I remember in the Phil Spector murder case they only found one or two particles of GSR on him. So three dozens is a heck of a lot to be found, especially collected the day after.

I pulled up the data on St. Johns not too long ago and it was from 2000 until now and it showed no murders happening in that town. I don't think this LE knew how to handle this double homicide suspect. What redeems them some what though they immediately asked of assistance from the Az. DPR. I truly think they did the best they could, especially having to not only deal with two homicides, but probably one of the youngest defendants charged in our history, to date.

imoo

Great post, OBE. You and I are of like mind when it comes to this case.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I'm not an attorney but if it were me, and I COULD, I'd file a motion to dismiss. I mean the only probable cause they had in the first place was the child's alleged confession. They're filing to remove the bogus confession, there goes their probable cause.

Tim's wife's statement that she heard the child is clearly unreliable. At first she told LE 'Tim said the child was calling him,' which meant she didn't hear directly the child's voice. It wasn't until the second time she talked to LE that she claimed she directly heard the child's voice calling Tim. Of course right after that she lawyered up and is now refusing to talk to LE, PLUS, she has an ulterior motive,..........it's called GREED.

Either she's lying about hearing him or the investigating officers are lying. Either way, there's absolutely NO PROOF this child was even in the home at the time of the murders.

JMHO
fran

What greed did she have when this happened? I highly doubt that Tim Romans even had any life insurance since he worked for a construction outfit at the plant and not the plant itself.

Probable cause is a very low burden to meet. The Judge did not base that he thought probable cause was met, based solely on the confession. The probable cause hearing had several officers testifying in it and JR took the totality of all that was stated and came to his conclusion that it had been met.

There is absolutely no proof that he WASN'T in the home. The gunshot residue found on his shirt and his pants shows more likely he was in the home when the gun was discharged, than it doesn't. The only thing that would have been conclusive toward his innocence is if NO gunshot residue was found on him at all but that was not the case. It is just as LE expected and over three dozen particle was found.

I have been researching criminal cases for almost three decades and I can't remember one other case where the suspect's clothing had this much GSR found and these clothes weren't even taken until the next day. By then a lot of the GSR had shed from his clothing and been rubbed off by loved ones touching him.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Me too - good attys do that if they have cause.

It still seems to me that this child is the person who killed these men. However, I was confused to read that he can't have a picture of his Mom. Where's the logic in that?

Maybe it is a rule at the detention center or wherever they are housing him that no juvenile can have any personal items.

I think the Judge will either decide that he can have it or tell the defense to get it okayed through the detention center officers.

imoo

 

[colette]

Maybe the kid isn't following the rules in juvie. Maybe if they don't follow the rules they don't get certain privileges such as having personal things in their cell.

 

[MeoW333]

Gunshot residue dots boy's clothing
Experts say evidence may have been tainted

But independent experts question the significance of both pieces of evidence.

The boy's clothing was not collected until the day after his father and a friend were shot and killed, and his skin was never tested for traces of gunshot residue. The boy, who turned 9 last month, frequently hunted with his father and could have held the box of .22-caliber cartridges or come into contact with residue at any time.

A report from the Bexar County Criminal Investigation Lab in Texas says more than three-dozen particles of lead, antimony and barium were found on a long-sleeved shirt and denim pants the boy wore the day his father and a friend were killed. Michael Martinez, a forensic scientist who analyzed the garments, concluded that the clothing may have come in contact with, or been close to, a discharged firearm.

However, the FBI and other law-enforcement agencies have stopped using gunshot-residue tests because cross-contamination and other problems can lead to dubious conclusions.

Steven Howard, a Michigan attorney and expert on shooting reconstruction, said tens of thousands of microscopic particles are expelled when a firearm is discharged. Upon learning that the St. Johns boy's clothes were collected a day after the crime - and that his skin was not tested at all - Howard criticized investigators. "Number 1, they're stupid," he said. "Number 2, they're stupid. Number 3, they're stupid. . . . This is just a case of poor police work."

..............snip................

Residue controversial

Howard said gunshot residue has become controversial in the forensics world because innocent defendants can be tainted without firing a weapon, especially if they sat in a patrol car, touched a gun or were near the weapon when it was fired. The St. Johns boy was from a hunting family and had been in the room where his father died.

Police records say the boy's pants and shirt were retrieved from a relative's home the day after the slayings. Howard said he would expect to find dozens of particles under those circumstances, "even if he took the clothes and hung them in a closet."


<<<<<<<<<full article at link>>>>>>>>


http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106stjohns.html

The police there have messed up this case from the very beginning. Being from a hunting family, i'm sure there's a lot of gunshot residue all over the house.
Brewer is trying to look out for his client's best interests:

"Third motion filed Meanwhile, attorneys for the boy filed a third motion, seeking to hire a counselor who can help the defendant cope with emotional issues.
The defense wants those sessions to be confidential so that the child can receive treatment without his statements being used in court. Roca has refused, instead authorizing treatment by an Apache County probation counselor who could report findings to the court."


(from link in qoute)


IMO, it's very important to the boy's emotional and mental well being that a counselor can help him. An 8 year old child has to hold all his emotions in and most likely has PTSD from all the events. To deny him someone who he can openly talk to about what happened is harmful, especially since the case has not even went to trial. Innocent until proven guilty?

I just can't grasp why they won't give him a counselor.

I think they should move the whole case and the boy to a city that has a lot more resources. If they were to keep the trial in that county, it'd bias the outcome of the whole case, everyone knows each other.

 

[Trino]

The police there have messed up this case from the very beginning. Being from a hunting family, i'm sure there's a lot of gunshot residue all over the house.
Brewer is trying to look out for his client's best interests:

"Third motion filed Meanwhile, attorneys for the boy filed a third motion, seeking to hire a counselor who can help the defendant cope with emotional issues.
The defense wants those sessions to be confidential so that the child can receive treatment without his statements being used in court. Roca has refused, instead authorizing treatment by an Apache County probation counselor who could report findings to the court."

(from link in qoute)

IMO, it's very important to the boy's emotional and mental well being that a counselor can help him. An 8 year old child has to hold all his emotions in and most likely has PTSD from all the events. To deny him someone who he can openly talk to about what happened is harmful, especially since the case has not even went to trial. Innocent until proven guilty?

I just can't grasp why they won't give him a counselor.

I think they should move the whole case and the boy to a city that has a lot more resources. If they were to keep the trial in that county, it'd bias the outcome of the whole case, everyone knows each other.

Please remember the 9 yr old boy (12/29) has talked with an evaluator. We have no idea what was said. Perhaps this is playing into reasons he has not been given a counselor.

 

[Chargergal]

Local Chatter...
I'm in Phoenix so obviously this story is always front page news. Tonight on the 12 news the interviewed Big John, the spoke person for the Roman's family. They were in court today as well. The Romans family is starting to even doubt this boy acted ALONE. Maybe people in this town are starting to really doubt this as well. Big John stated the family is starting to wonder how an 8 year old boy fired off 10 rounds, went to a neighbors house and the police pronounced both men dead all within a matter of eleven minutes. They were quoted as saying they want this boy to get the help he needs to have a productive and usuful life.

This afternoon on talk radio -KTAR they were also discussing the new developments of today, Gun powder, not using the confession, denials for therapist, etc. Most legal experts interviewed locally felt strongly this case will be thrown out

They were also discussing the agreement between the two attorneys not to use the taped confession unless the boy takes the stand in his own defense, I highly doubt this will happen. The picture thing also is very upsetting to me.

Just thought I'd share with you some of the local chatter.

 

[Chargergal]

Gun shot residue...
There was a lot of discussion about this today. I'm just throwing out, according to wikipedia "Current testing methods are inconclusive as a suspect's clothing or body can easily become contaminated after the firing from sources such as being handled by police officers or being transported in contaminated police vehicles"
Is is possible that the boy had GSR on his clothing because he said he sat and held his dad and cried for "like 30 minutes or something"
I just hope the WHOLE truth comes out someday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunshot_residue

 

[Fairy1]

Local Chatter...
I'm in Phoenix so obviously this story is always front page news. Tonight on the 12 news the interviewed Big John, the spoke person for the Roman's family. They were in court today as well. The Romans family is starting to even doubt this boy acted ALONE. Maybe people in this town are starting to really doubt this as well. Big John stated the family is starting to wonder how an 8 year old boy fired off 10 rounds, went to a neighbors house and the police pronounced both men dead all within a matter of eleven minutes. They were quoted as saying they want this boy to get the help he needs to have a productive and usuful life.

This afternoon on talk radio -KTAR they were also discussing the new developments of today, Gun powder, not using the confession, denials for therapist, etc. Most legal experts interviewed locally felt strongly this case will be thrown out

They were also discussing the agreement between the two attorneys not to use the taped confession unless the boy takes the stand in his own defense, I highly doubt this will happen. The picture thing also is very upsetting to me.

Just thought I'd share with you some of the local chatter.

Thank you, Chargergal, for this "inside" information. There are so many facets to this case that we either do not know about or that just simply don't make sense. I'm not ready to crucify this child, but again, we don't know everything. The fact that Tim's family is questioning the details tells me a lot. And I want to point out - again - this Tim's wife is NOT an eyewitness - but an "ear" witness. There's a HUGE difference...IMO.

 

[Trino]

Local Chatter...
I'm in Phoenix so obviously this story is always front page news. Tonight on the 12 news the interviewed Big John, the spoke person for the Roman's family. They were in court today as well. The Romans family is starting to even doubt this boy acted ALONE.

I don't know that a boy this young would be able to keep a secret if he acted with someone else.

 

[azmama]

What greed did she have when this happened? I highly doubt that Tim Romans even had any life insurance since he worked for a construction outfit at the plant and not the plant itself.
Probable cause is a very low burden to meet. The Judge did not base that he thought probable cause was met, based solely on the confession. The probable cause hearing had several officers testifying in it and JR took the totality of all that was stated and came to his conclusion that it had been met.

There is absolutely no proof that he WASN'T in the home. The gunshot residue found on his shirt and his pants shows more likely he was in the home when the gun was discharged, than it doesn't. The only thing that would have been conclusive toward his innocence is if NO gunshot residue was found on him at all but that was not the case. It is just as LE expected and over three dozen particle was found.

I have been researching criminal cases for almost three decades and I can't remember one other case where the suspect's clothing had this much GSR found and these clothes weren't even taken until the next day. By then a lot of the GSR had shed from his clothing and been rubbed off by loved ones touching him.

imoo

Contract construction people in this line of work make more money than most "house" workers in a power plant such as this case and they are usually union, my husband is a construction manager, and until this past year has worked as a contractor for that exact reason. We have always had full benefits. So it would be likely that he did have benefits including life insurance and even a pension.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Contract construction people in this line of work make more money than most "house" workers in a power plant such as this case and they are usually union, my husband is a construction manager, and until this past year has worked as a contractor for that exact reason. We have always had full benefits. So it would be likely that he did have benefits including life insurance and even a pension.

Good Morning!

The reason I stated that, is when LE did the search warrant on the Romero home they looked for insurance policies on Romero, who also worked at the same job and found none.

Not all contractors provided life insurance on their employees and still that would not make Tanya guilty of greed. She would have gotten that insurance policy, if it even exists, no matter if she ever said one word or not about the boy calling for her husband.

So I still do not see any greed on her part.

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't know that a boy this young would be able to keep a secret if he acted with someone else.

I agree, he would have spilled his guts long ago.

Like Big John said "MAYBE" he didn't act alone. He does think he was there when it happened. That has not changed.

I think it is normal to question this. Like he said people are not ready to believe that an 8 year old is capable of do something like this. He never emphatically says though, that he doesn't think the boy did this. It is only "maybes" or "might have" coming from Big John.

It seems someone from IS is feeding the Romans family trying to sway them. What he doesn't realize just because someone on a message board may say they are in police work, doesn't prove that they are or that they are even good at what they do or have any particular expertise in this field. That is the scary thing imo and it confuses the issues.

The families need to let the evidence continue to come out and look at what LE has to prove this case and does prove. If they don't produce it and I think they will, then the families can go onto the "maybes."

And some complain about the State and Defense leaking things to the media when others on message board sites are doing the same and trying to taint the perceptions of the families involved.

http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/[email protected]&navCatId=3


imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Gun shot residue...
There was a lot of discussion about this today. I'm just throwing out, according to wikipedia "Current testing methods are inconclusive as a suspect's clothing or body can easily become contaminated after the firing from sources such as being handled by police officers or being transported in contaminated police vehicles"
Is is possible that the boy had GSR on his clothing because he said he sat and held his dad and cried for "like 30 minutes or something"
I just hope the WHOLE truth comes out someday.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunshot_residue

I don't ever remember that he said he held his dad. He told them he touched him with the toe of his shoe. They specifically asked him did he touch him and he even showed them how he did it.

The 30 minutes is not reasonable. There was no time between the two murders for him to sit beside his dad even for a few minutes much less 30 minutes.




imoo

 

[MeoW333]

I don't ever remember that he said he held his dad. He told them he touched him with the toe of his shoe. They specifically asked him did he touch him and he even showed them how he did it.

The 30 minutes is not reasonable. There was no time between the two murders for him to sit beside his dad even for a few minutes much less 30 minutes.




imoo

OBE, i think he said it during one of the interviews with the officers, not sure which one though..
An 8 year old's mind (he was 8 yrs old when interviewed) will distort time perceptions, so the numbers he throws out aren't going to be that accurate. For example, 1,000 spankings, 30 mins, may seem like a lot or a long time to a child. It's seems almost exaggerated in a metaphorical attempt to get a point across by a child.

 

[Chargergal]

I agree, he would have spilled his guts long ago.

I think it is normal to question this. Like he said people are not ready to believe that an 8 year old is capable of do something like this. He never emphatically says though, that he doesn't think the boy did this. No not on the interview posted on lineIt is only "maybes" or "might have" coming from Big John. But he did emphatically say on the interview on air that they had doubts he acted alone due the fact there was ten rounds fired off, a run to the neighbors, the neighbor ran back, etc all in eleven minutes.
Unfortunately the interview they showed on-line is not the same interview from Big John they show on air.
The families need to let the evidence continue to come out and look at what LE has to prove this case and does prove. If they don't produce it and I think they will, then the families can go onto the "maybes."

And some complain about the State and Defense leaking things to the media when others on message board sites are doing the same and trying to taint the perceptions of the families involved.
Message boards are just as this site is...a site where those of us who have no access to other than public information come and spectulate "our opinion". I don't see in anyway how that can be compared to what the State and Defense are leaking.



http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/[email protected]&navCatId=3 if you view this interview the end does say that the family is starting to "waiver" if they believe he actually did the crimes.


imo

My whole point of my post was to share some of the "local chatter" from the local news which is not what we always see in print or pieces of an interview on-line. It was not to have everything picked apart.
I think their are two of us here that are close in proximity and we are hearing about it on the news daily, at the grocery store, at soccer games, etc. I'm sure similiar to Caylee...the people in that region are much closer to what is actually happening.

 

[Chargergal]

I don't ever remember that he said he held his dad. He told them he touched him with the toe of his shoe. They specifically asked him did he touch him and he even showed them how he did it.

The 30 minutes is not reasonable. There was no time between the two murders for him to sit beside his dad even for a few minutes much less 30 minutes.




imoo

It's is in the interview, he said he cried and sat with his dad "for like 30 minutes" his words. Right after he said he checked to see if he was a little bit alive and he didn't hear anything and he sat with his dad and cried for like 30 minutes..

It really seems that it is easy to pick and choose the selections of the interview with the boy that we want to believe to support our opinions and discard what doesn't.