AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #4

[Fairy1]

My point was...8...alomst 9 year olds...ALL of them know a gun can kill and pointing one at another human being and pulling the trigger is WRONG and would likely result in DEATH. Actual knowledge of loading and handling the gun is not necessary.

If they didn't there would be MOUNTAINS of dead bodies.

There's much to back up what I said about this boy being experienced. There are links all over the board to back it up and they've been posted many times. If you can access the reports ...witness statements say the kid could hit a prairie dog from 40 YARDS away!

In truth, 5-year-olds know the difference between right and wrong. That doesn't mean they're ready or able to make good decisions. If it did, we'd be done parenting by then! There is a LOT more involved in becoming a mature person of good and decent character. I sure wouldn't want any third grader being my doctor or lawyer or state representative.

 

[Fairy1]

Hunting doesn't make children murderers. imo

Um, well, we're going to have to disagree on that point. But video games don't make children murderers either.

 

[Openmind]

My point was...8...alomst 9 year olds...ALL of them know a gun can kill and pointing one at another human being and pulling the trigger is WRONG and would likely result in DEATH. Actual knowledge of loading and handling the gun is not necessary.

If they didn't there would be MOUNTAINS of dead bodies.

If the did this, why would he commit such a crime. If he was this evil, someone would/should have noticed something in his behaviors that would have predicted this. Kids are are very transparent.

There's much to back up what I said about this boy being experienced. There are links all over the board to back it up and they've been posted many times. If you can access the reports ...witness statements say the kid could hit a prairie dog from 40 YARDS away!

Truthfully, the idea the father took his kid out and taught him to pop off prairie dogs is quite disturbing and disgusting.

And not all country kids have guns and hunt. Even so, this family lived in rural commmunity not on a farm.

 

[chiperoni]

Hunting doesn't make children murderers. imo

I agree Linda that hunting doesn't make children murderers, but I don't think that it makes eight year olds understand murder either or the consequences of murder especially a troubled child. When a an eight year old child is shooting a prairie dog he has no emotional attachment and is probably complimented for having a good aim. I don't think that a mentor would be discussing the mortality of the prairie dog and the finality of death with an eight year old during hunting time. This is why I think that when there are minors in the home the guns should be secured.

 

[Fairy1]

Truthfully, the idea the father took his kid out and taught him to pop off prairie dogs to be quite disgusting.

Snipped....


ITA Openmind! Prairie dogs are not a food source - or anything else for that matter. Would be nothing more than target practice or a thrill kill. This is NOT something I would teach my children or want them to excel in doing.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Um, well, we're going to have to disagree on that point. But video games don't make children murderers either.

Well, at least I can agree with you on the video games.

 

[Fairy1]

I agree Linda that hunting doesn't make children murderers, but I don't think that it makes eight year olds understand murder either or the consequences of murder especially a troubled child. When a an eight year old child is shooting a prairie dog he has no emotional attachment and is probably complimented for having a good aim. I don't think that a mentor would be discussing the mortality of the prairie dog and the finality of death with an eight year old during hunting time. This is why I think that when there are minors in the home the guns should be secured.

ITA chiperoni. But if you teach a child to be detached when killing a living thing, what can you possibly expect? Should we assume that Vincent actually told this boy that killing innocent prairie dogs was fine but that killing human beings was not? I doubt that is something that ever crossed his mind - as it wouldn't with most parents! What parent would ever think their child would kill another human being?

I'm a NOT a fan of hunting, generally speaking. That being said, in parts of the country where there are people that do hunt FOR FOOD, I sure do hope parents are teaching their children the difference between survival and just outright killing for the sake of killing.

And not for nothin' but guns in ANY home should be secured if children are about. That's just plain, old common sense. Something that seems to be in terribly short supply anymore.

 

[Fairy1]

Well, at least I can agree with you on the video games.

:blowkiss: I am in shock we agree on ANYTHING! :blowkiss:

 

[chiperoni]

:blowkiss: I am in shock we agree on ANYTHING! :blowkiss:

Linda and Fairy1.. now I've seen everything. LOL:blowkiss:

 

[fran]

I'd like a link to the prosecution's expert deemed the boy incompetent.

So far, I've only heard it from the GAL...that didn't even bother to show up for the hearing.

Sorry, but I don't consider the GAL a reputable source. Had he any objections, his butt should have been at court that day, not running his mouth to the media.

The GAL is a principle in this case. The GAL said BOTH psychologists deemed the boy incompetent in the article I linked the other day. It's a few pages back here and I believe 'quotes' from the interview. If you don't want to believe what the GAL said, well, I just don't know what to say.

We don't know why the GAL wasn't present during the plea deal hearing. That's part of what's been discussed the past few days. How can they work out a plea deal with someone who's incompetent? Just because they bipassed the competency hearing?

I guess this is just one of the mysteries of this case. Kind of like the pros getting a SW for the '1000 spanking list,' using that information as their {proof} of premeditation, yet the 'list' has never been discovered and put into evidence, the pros said at the time they were stating they wouldn't use the child's alleged confession in court they also indicated they weren't aware of the child saying anything incriminating to the CS worker (or whatever you call them), but still people use that information in their 'reasoning' to show the child lay in wait.

or..........the RUMOR that there was 'blood' on the child's underwear found in the hallway, it was stated in the forensic files there was 'no blood or seman detected,' yet people still use that as part of their {proof} the child is guilty and some even go into detail of how he changed his clothes after he killed the two victims.

JMHO
fran

 

[Trino]

IMO the GAL could be called incompetent for not being at the hearing. If the media knew about the date and plea deal, certainly the GAL should have known and IMO should have been at the hearing.

 

[fran]

IMO the GAL could be called incompetent for not being at the hearing. If the media knew about the date and plea deal, certainly the GAL should have known and IMO should have been at the hearing.

I'd like to go out on a limb here and say the judge could be called incompetent too, for allowing this case to move forward as he has.

It appears that everyone connected to this case just wants it to go away. No more investigation, no more hearings, no more publicity.

I can think of no other reason other than they messed up big time and they have an available 'fall guy,' this child, and they believe he's expendable.

Quite frankly, I don't see how those involved can sleep at night. How could they do this to the victims, this child, this community?

JMHO
fran

 

[Openmind]

or..........the RUMOR that there was 'blood' on the child's underwear found in the hallway, it was stated in the forensic files there was 'no blood or seman detected,' yet people still use that as part of their {proof} the child is guilty and some even go into detail of how he changed his clothes after he killed the two victims.

JMHO
fran

The kid has been convicted twice --once by the courts without any presentation of evidence, by a confession that was incorrectly given and thrown out, over the objections of his mother, and without the benefit of the one unbiased individual that was to speak to his welfare only. And he has been condemned again by gossip and speculation. I thought the court system was to protect the rights of citizens, even children. Now the rumor mills are free to forever run rampant while leaving the facts and truth buried from the public. I agree, I think this is less about what is best for the child, or about seeking justise for the victims, but about getting rid of the case. All parties involved just have to suck it up and accept it because no one in the system gives a darn about the child, the victims, or their survivors.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I'd like to go out on a limb here and say the judge could be called incompetent too, for allowing this case to move forward as he has.

It appears that everyone connected to this case just wants it to go away. No more investigation, no more hearings, no more publicity.

I can think of no other reason other than they messed up big time and they have an available 'fall guy,' this child, and they believe he's expendable.

Quite frankly, I don't see how those involved can sleep at night. How could they do this to the victims, this child, this community?

JMHO
fran

It was said after two days of investigation that LE did no further investigation. That presumption was false. Even with only a 100 pages of discovery turned over by DPS investigators and put up on the official court site, it shows that not to be the case and we have only been privy to less than a 100 pages (1/4) out of almost 400 pages turned over by them. AND DPS investigators alone turned over a total of 795 pages of discovery.

It is also highly unfair to say that everyone involved is conspiring to "get" a nine year old child. There is nothing showing that to be the case but shows that they all grappled with how to deal with a 9 year old child that commits double homicide. I would think this had never happened with a child this young in AZ before and they did the best they could under the most dire circumstances they ever had to consider.

If they have trouble sleeping at night then IMO it is because they knew the victims would never get real justice due to the age of the defendant who committed the crimes.

It is for certain that all legal parties, including Judge Roca have all the evidence produced in this case.............not just a fourth of it.

They had two premeditated homicides that had shattered the quiet community of St. John. IMO, they all thought it was in the best interest of the boy for the rest of the evidence be sealed, so that calm could return to a town that had been torn apart by these heinous acts. It is customary that when plea deals are struck all other evidence remains sealed after then.

It would not benefit the boy if all these things came to light. It would just create more dissension, anger and unrest in a community that needed to move beyond this and go back to being a town where murders never happen.

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

or..........the RUMOR that there was 'blood' on the child's underwear found in the hallway, it was stated in the forensic files there was 'no blood or seman detected,' yet people still use that as part of their {proof} the child is guilty and some even go into detail of how he changed his clothes after he killed the two victims.

JMHO
fran[/QUOTE]

I believe there are two different pairs of underwear.

1. One that they retrieved from the headboard, that was hidden. That pair was said to have no blood or semen detected.

2. Underwear and socks that were retrieved from the trash after the murders that belonged to the boy and may have included other clothing belonging to the boy iirc.

Those dna tests results have not been revealed. IMO the blood came from one of the victims. I believe the friends who found them when helping Tiffany clean, found them stuffed into a closet. May have even been his closet. I cant remember that part. I will have to go back and read the reports again.

Also another compelling part of the evidence hasn't been revealed either way and that is what type of blood pattern was on his dark jeans and which victim did it belong to? Was it blood transference or too high up and was it blood spatter instead? That too would be riveting to know imo. Would it be consistent with the close up shot that was fired very close to Tim Romans' head?

imo

 

[Linda7NJ]

ITA chiperoni. But if you teach a child to be detached when killing a living thing, what can you possibly expect? Should we assume that Vincent actually told this boy that killing innocent prairie dogs was fine but that killing human beings was not? I doubt that is something that ever crossed his mind - as it wouldn't with most parents! What parent would ever think their child would kill another human being?

I'm a NOT a fan of hunting, generally speaking. That being said, in parts of the country where there are people that do hunt FOR FOOD, I sure do hope parents are teaching their children the difference between survival and just outright killing for the sake of killing.

And not for nothin' but guns in ANY home should be secured if children are about. That's just plain, old common sense. Something that seems to be in terribly short supply anymore.

The very first thing my own dad taught me BEFORE ever handing me a gun, was gun safety. Rule #1 Never point it at anyone.

I would bet my last dollar Vincent did the same.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Linda and Fairy1.. now I've seen everything. LOL:blowkiss:

:dance:

Too funny

 

[fran]

It was said after two days of investigation that LE did no further investigation. That presumption was false. Even with only a 100 pages of discovery turned over by DPS investigators and put up on the official court site, it shows that not to be the case and we have only been privy to less than a 100 pages (1/4) out of almost 400 pages turned over by them. AND DPS investigators alone turned over a total of 795 pages of discovery.

It is also highly unfair to say that everyone involved is conspiring to "get" an nine year old child. There is nothing showing that to be the case but shows that they all grappled with how to deal with a 9 year old child that commits double homicide. I would think this had never happened with a child this young in AZ before and they did the best they could under the most dire circumstances they ever had to consider.

If they have trouble sleeping at night then IMO it is because they knew the victims would never get real justice due to the age of the defendant who committed the crimes.

It is for certain that all legal parties, including Judge Roca have all the evidence produced in this case.............not just a fourth of it.

They had two premeditated homicides that had shattered the quiet community of St. John. IMO, they all thought it was in the best interest of the boy for the rest of the evidence be sealed, so that calm could return to a town that had been torn apart by these heinous acts. It is customary that when plea deals are struck all other evidence remains sealed after then.

It would not benefit the boy if all these things came to light. It would just create more dissension, anger and unrest in a community that needed to move beyond this and go back to being a town where murders never happen.

imo

It's a FACT that St Johns PD discontinued investigating this case the MINUTE they coerced this child into a confession. It's in the COURT filed documents. They didn't begin to investigate again until AFTER the judge told them to. They lost valuable time and possible evidence by their delay. You can see it in the witness interviews from the first day of questioning of witnesses that worked with the two victims and the second set of statements taken more than 10 days later. The second group of statements are more rehearsed.

I'm not going to 'pretend' that I know what is in the pages of documents not put into evidence. I believe for anyone to ASSUME they know what they contain is just writing fiction.

I stand by my statement that they are conspiring against this child. They want this case to disappear because of their complete and utterly mishandling from the day they arrived on the scene up until the last court hearing. From the outside looking in, NO ONE is truly working for what is the best interest of this child. NO ONE, except his mom Eryn. They wouldn't even listen to her, though.

To coerce this child to sign that plea agreement prior to his competency hearing is just as WRONG as it was for those two detectives to corner that child in that room and lead him along until he told them a story they wanted to hear.

The detectives lied that they wouldn't lie and this case has been nothing but mishandled since.

All the towns people have to say is they're glad it's over. How sad is that? For these two families and for this child, it's just begun.

JMHO
fran

 

[Openmind]

Suppressing one fourth of the evidence in any case is major, and, undoubtedly, the most pertinent evidence that proves guilt, innocence, or motive is now sealed by this plea. What this allows is unsavory speculation and nasty rumors to forever haunt this case and all parties involved. People will trot out their opinions like they are gospel because so many facts are sealed. They can spin the evidence they have to support their side of the issue when what they know may not be a full picture of the events. People can fill in the gaps with gossip from a friend of a friend of a relative three times removed. Even so, IMHO, this is not a conspiracy against the child, but damage control for all the missteps the officials have taken. They messed up from the get-go and didn't improve.

 

[fran]

Suppressing one fourth of the evidence in any case is major, and, undoubtedly, the most pertinent evidence that proves guilt, innocence, or motive is now sealed by this plea. What this allows is unsavory speculation and nasty rumors to forever haunt this case and all parties involved. People will trot out their opinions like they are gospel because so many facts are sealed. They can spin the evidence they have to support their side of the issue when what they know may not be a full picture of the events. People can fill in the gaps with gossip from a friend of a friend of a relative three times removed. Even so, IMHO, this is not a conspiracy against the child, but damage control for all the missteps the officials have taken. They messed up from the get-go and didn't improve.

ITA! and you said it so much better than I. LOL, and more condensed!

JMHO
fran