AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #4

[mrrogers]

Thanks, Fairy. I remember that, now.

augustine logan:waitasec:
http://www.supreme.state.az.us/publi...arny Justice

 

[SoobsinMI]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/default.aspx

Any thoughts on why the competency hearing has been vacated? It doesn't look like it has been rescheduled.

 

[azmama]

How do you know that the townspeople aren't highly upset about this. Even if they are dismayed I do think they respect the court's ruling whether they agree with it or not.

Well, it would not be a crime nor disrespectful for people to come out and talk about it, if they felt they were in danger. I am fairly local to the area and it is not being discussed, that was what I base that on.

 

[azmama]

augustine logan:waitasec:
http://www.supreme.state.az.us/publi...arny Justice

I am getting an error screen, can you repost the link? Thank you!

 

[azmama]

Any thoughts on why the competency hearing has been vacated? It doesn't look like it has been rescheduled.

It shows Feb 12 at 4pm

The February 5, 2009 Status Hearing has been reset to Thursday, February 12, 2009 at 4:00 p.m. Items to be addressed include the pending Motion to Dismiss.

The February 13, 2009 Competency Hearing has been vacated and will be reset upon consultation with the evaluators.

The juvenile’s furlough has been extended with the court providing clarification of release conditions. Further details are unavailable.

Are you seeing the text of all of these disclosures? If so could you please point me in that direction? I can't find it at all.

Thanks

 

[Fairy1]

I'm thinking we should agree to disagree until all the facts are in on this one. We all can believe what we will on this case, but until we know the facts, we truly just don't know. I'm the first to admit that I generally rush to judgement on most cases but, this time, I have to withhold. No, I do not want to believe that an 8-year-old child is capable of premeditated, cold-blooded murder. But more to the point, I don't want to believe that any PD would be willing to pin such a crime on a child who is NOT guilty. I sincerely hope the forensic evidence and the investigation will clear it all up - whatever way it goes.

 

[Bobbisangel]

I wanted to comment on several items in the past couple of pages without making a bunch of seperate posts, quotes are reduced for space as to what I am specifically pointing out.



I agree with all of this, the LE has not shown one piece of evidence that shows that the boy committed this murder...a very slippery slope. Comment about the drive below.



Why is it so reasonable for you to assume what did or did not happen between Tim and Candy and just to assume his intentions and yet nail someone else to the wall about an opinion of the boy? The fact is, we do not know, and IMO men do not discuss things of this nature (in a bonding type of fashion) like women do, so it would not seem odd to me at all that Leroy wouldn't know anything.......



I too think they are bluffing, if not, SHOW YOUR HAND! Do you really think if they had this case all wrapped up, they would continue to hold it close to the chest?? NO WAY! They would be sky writing it!
I think the judge too believes there is not evidence, if there is so much, why the furloughs? Now that should be an out cry from the towns people!




So what is it you think the Judge should be doing? If he is guilty, how can the furloughs be justified? What is your theory on those issues?
It is an odd case to be sure, but there have been other child murderers, and THEY never got any furloughs!

If they got nothing on him why has he been held for three months? And why is he out for only a week and not for good?IMO because they have a confession, do you see LE going around all the time parading their mistakes? No, not really, unless their hand is forced. And this is a BIG mistake, one that can potentially cost the LE there millions!

I would expect you are certainly right about your children however this boy is not your child and I bet your children have never even been arrested and charged for any crime, much less double homicide. Neither had he! He couldn't even remember a paper he was supposed to bring home from school, but we are expected to believe he planned all of this out? He is a child none the less and there are not a lot of children that pull something like this off, it just doesn't make sense in my mind is what I am saying. It is quite obvious to me that it does in yours, that's all. I really see a lack of human compassion from my point of view from you toward this boy, I think that is why I spend so much time trying to convince you, because I can not understand that lack! A huge part of what my issues with this whole thing are his rights! We bend over backwards all the time in the courts to ensure murderers have their rights met, but clearly not in this case. I think in this case with this child, his WHOLE BEING needs to be thought about.



Is that in one of the docs posted here? I have never read that. so you mean having someone there 24/7?



Really, it is not a "nasty" drive, I think it depends on your point of view, it is quite scenic with great roads, can be very relaxing. IMO

We are not going to see any evidence or hear about it because there is a gag order on this case. No one knows what LE has or doesn't have. We really know next to nothing about this case and that is the way LE and the Judge want it. We can second guess all we want but that doesn't make it so.

 

[SoobsinMI]

It shows Feb 12 at 4pm

The February 5, 2009 Status Hearing has been reset to Thursday, February 12, 2009 at 4:00 p.m. Items to be addressed include the pending Motion to Dismiss.

The February 13, 2009 Competency Hearing has been vacated and will be reset upon consultation with the evaluators.

The juvenile’s furlough has been extended with the court providing clarification of release conditions. Further details are unavailable.

Are you seeing the text of all of these disclosures? If so could you please point me in that direction? I can't find it at all.

Thanks

Thanks, Azmama. The only text I am seeing, is whatever is posted on the link above.

 

[fran]

Well, I'm encouraged by the most recently developments. Encouraged that there is SOMETHING going on behind the scenes and maybe, JUST maybe, these two vicitims will get justice with the TRUE/REAL killer apprehended.

IMHO, IF the judge really suspected this child guilty of double murder (premeditated too!) he would NOT release him on furlough. NO way!

FWIW, I do NOT know who did this crime, but I do believe it was someone OTHER THAN this child.

JMHO
fran


http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/doc.../JV2008065 PRESS RELEASE February 5, 2009.pdf

NEWS RELEASE
APACHE COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT

February 4, 2009
ST. JOHNS – The Court has taken several actions in case number JV-2008-065 today.

<<<<<<<<full text at link>>>>>>>>>

 

[oceanblueeyes]

If a defense attorney has exonerating evidence then why would he be happy with a delay of any kind?

imo

 

[fran]

If a defense attorney has exonerating evidence then why would he be happy with a delay of any kind?

imo

The defense attorney is not as concerned about time, now that the child has been released to his mom and not sitting behind bars.

Now is the time to be SURE a thorough investigation is done. REAL investigations take time, not 20 hours.

JMHO
fran

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The defense attorney is not as concerned about time, now that the child has been released to his mom and not sitting behind bars.

Now is the time to be SURE a thorough investigation is done. REAL investigations take time, not 20 hours.

JMHO
fran

They have had three months. They have had their own defense team and investigators and experts.

You mean they would rather still have double premeditated homicides hanging over his head all the while knowing they have exonerating evidence?:waitasec:

If they really have exonerating evidence they wouldn't have to wait for anything to come back from the state. They would not have to wait to see what it showed if they already know they have exonerating evidence showing he did not do this.

imoo

 

[SoobsinMI]

If a defense attorney has exonerating evidence then why would he be happy with a delay of any kind?

imo

I believe the delay is to address the motion to dismiss. I don't think a "delay" of one week is a bad thing, with regard to the defense.

 

[SoobsinMI]

If they really have exonerating evidence they wouldn't have to wait for anything to come back from the state. They would not have to wait to see what it showed if they already know they have exonerating evidence showing he did not do this.

imoo

Perhaps. But let's be clear, the defense does NOT have to "prove" his innocence. It's the obligation and burden of the prosecution. And I think that the motion to dismiss is one way the defense is being proactive.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Perhaps. But let's be clear, the defense does NOT have to "prove" his innocence. It's the obligation and burden of the prosecution. And I think that the motion to dismiss is one way the defense is being proactive.

That is absolutely true and I have never implied any differently.

But it has been said that the defense has exonerating evidence showing this boy did not do the crimes. Any defense attorney would be derelict in their duties if they did not provide that evidence to the court immediately. It would certainly be in the best interest of his client if he has it.

Arizona is a reciprocal discovery state. BOTH prosecution and the defense MUST turnover all discovery. Either one can be sanctioned for not doing so. So with this case droning on for three months where is the defense discovery? It should also include any exonerating or exculpatory evidence. There are no surprises in criminal cases.

Yes, he does seem to be fighting hard so that the motion to dismiss count one is delayed over and over again. I wonder why, if he is so sure how Roca is going to rule?

imoo

 

[SoobsinMI]

Yes, he does seem to be fighting hard so that the motion to dismiss count one is delayed over and over again. I wonder why, if he is so sure how Roca is going to rule?

imoo

Didn't Roca say he wasn't going to rule on any major motions before the competency hearing? At least until a few weeks ago, when the Supreme Court told him he could.

As for reciprocity - I don't recall any information the defense has turned over yet. I could be wrong.

 

[fran]

They have had three months. They have had their own defense team and investigators and experts.

You mean they would rather still have double premeditated homicides hanging over his head all the while knowing they have exonerating evidence?:waitasec:

If they really have exonerating evidence they wouldn't have to wait for anything to come back from the state. They would not have to wait to see what it showed if they already know they have exonerating evidence showing he did not do this.

imoo

This isn't a 60 minute program on tv, that can be investigated, solved, tried and convicted all within the time allotted. This is REAL life and lives have been taken and lives are at stake. It takes time to do a REAL investigation to catch REAL criminals (ie murderer(s)).

This case is SUPPOSED to be under investigation by St. John's PD and as you stated, the child's attorney has his own investigators as well. We are not privvy, and hopefully, the REAL killer isn't either, of WHAT? LE or the attorney knows. It will take time to put all the pieces of this investigation together.

The pros just recently provided pages and pages of discovery to the court and def. It takes time to pour over this information and for the def to act on the 'new' information they've received. This is also under the legal jurisdiction of the courts and procedures must be followed. We can see that by the recent documents filed. Every little 't' must be crossed before they can replace it with an 'i' that then again needs to be dotted, LEGALLY, as well.

I haven't seen where the def has said unequivocally that they had exonerating evidence. They said they 'felt' they did and this was in response to 'evidence' provided by the pros. So the pros is well aware of what the def has. I guess it just means the def may have looked at the same thing the pros has and run a different direction with it.

Like the 22 spent shell casings and the 'missing' gun. The pros claims it's the child's gun that was the murder weapon and the def might have looked into the missing gun.

The pros, or at least one of the officers, declared on their report that the two trucks the witness saw in front to the murder scene was Tim's truck and the neighbor who called 911, while the def might have figured out it was NOT the neighbor's truck and 911 callers, but the murderer and Tim and Vince and then Vince went inside the house and it was Tim and the murderer the witness saw the second time,...........just seconds before the killing.

The pros said the child planned this crime and they served a SW to retrieve the alleged evidence of his plan, the "l000 spanking" record. The pros is well aware that they NEVER found this alleged 'evidence' and so is the judge and so is the def attorney. and so are we aware of it.

The pros turned over all sorts of 'witness statements' between ST. John PD and the subjects. The def has probably talked to these people as well. There could very well be 'additional' info revealed in these witness statements to the def, that leads them in a different direction than LE. They can't turn over anything until these leads are checked out.

Isn't anyone curious why the def has called a 'witness' that was in contact with the child while he was incarcerated? FWIW, I read somewhere else that the child is having difficulty sleeping at night because of nightmares. He's apparently afraid the 'bad men' will come back to get him.

Doesn't sound like a murderer to me. :waitasec: Sounds more like a witness who knows someone might come back to get the only alive witness to them being at the murder scene. this, imho, is NOT something an 8 yo child can fake,TERROR!

The def cannot put their evidence forward until they have the opportunity, ie court proceeding. The ball is in the judge's court and the hearings have been delayed. The def can't just proclaim the child's innocence and the case is dismissed. The pros has made this mess by filing charges before they had the evidence. Now the def has to play the game in court, before a judge.

Now we are going to have to wait to see what either side has. I don't believe too much is going to be revealed in future filings because,..........HOPEFULLY,.......St John's PD and the pros AND the def,....don't want to show their hand in a hopefully OPEN investigation. No sense in letting a KILLER know they're on to 'em.

JMHO
fran

 

[fran]

I truly believe this def attorney KNOWS his client, this child, is innocent. He also knows what can happen if the pros has the one case thrown out and IF the child is found incompetent to stand trial. This child COULD later be tried for one of the murders AND the 'label' of 'murderer' would forever hang over this child's head.

This attorney, IMO, knows the St. John's PD completely blew this investigation and this supposed confession is BS,..........EVERY expert that has seen the tape of the alleged confession, have stated it was coerced.

The statement made by the boy's lawyer, of wanting to 'exonerate' his client, I honestly believe. He is well aware that the only way to 'clear' this child's name, is to solve the crime.

Right now, this attorney is court appointed. The people of Arizona are not only paying for the investigation by the 'people,' they're paying for the def investigation too.

REAL LIFE investigations, especially murder investigations, can take, days, weeks, months, and sometimes years. From things I've posted previously about variable 'possible' circumstances and people involved with these two victims, these vicitm's families, work, the local bar, extra-marital affairs and psycho b/f's, and on and on, should tell anyone, this is NOT an open and shut case. St John PD has a LOT of work in front of them to figure this puzzle out. :waitasec:

It could even be more complicated than even WE think. This could be just a 'random act of violence,' which in itself, COULD make this crime IMPOSSIBLE to solve.

JMHO
fran

 

[southcitymom]

If "others" killed these two men, I do not know why the child never indicated that in his tape confession. I understand that the confession was probably legally improper, but it still provides some limited insight into this child that is fair to consider. He did not appear frightened or even particularly upset.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Sniped

Isn't anyone curious why the def has called a 'witness' that was in contact with the child while he was incarcerated? FWIW, I read somewhere else that the child is having difficulty sleeping at night because of nightmares. He's apparently afraid the 'bad men' will come back to get him.

Doesn't sound like a murderer to me. :waitasec: Sounds more like a witness who knows someone might come back to get the only alive witness to them being at the murder scene. this, imho, is NOT something an 8 yo child can fake,TERROR!


JMHO
fran

Where does this "apparently afraid the 'bad men' will come back to get him." coming from?

I think she will simply say he is having difficulty adjusting to detention. No big surprise there. grown adult men often cry themselves to sleep in their cells. Detention isn't supposed to be a Disney Vacation.