AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #4

[fran]

IMHO, doesn't prove the child did the crime. Too many other possibilities to declare the child the killer. Guess it just depends on how you look at it.

I'm not saying the boy is absolutely innocent. But it has definitely not been proven he committed the crime. In my book, more points away from the child. As a matter of fact, the new revelations give more motive for someone other than the child, imo...............a lot of people could try to revenge for someone sexually assaulted. Course, then there's Misty's psycho b/f. :waitasec:

I prefer to form my opinions from facts and not 'cherry-picked' sentences out of pages and pages of discovery. I take the entire picture into consideration.

We can just agree to disagree on this case until all the evidence is in.

JMHO
fran

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The time-line

His claim he was out walking around the block 10+ times doesn't hold water.

The ear & now EYE witnesses. Tanya on phone. Neighbor heard shots and sees boy outside with his dog, playing, immediately after hearing gun pops.

The threats the boy made in anger at family reunion

Threats he made to another child that caused that child to be so concerned he reported it to the bus driver.

The kid was quite capable of shooting his own gun & had access to it. The gun was left on the dog cage.

The GSR doesn't exclude him and his prints were found on the box holding ammo. That too doesn't exclude him.

His own grand parents thought he was the likely killer and thought he was capable.

His own mother said he changed recently.

Friend of the family says witnessed this boy trying to drown his half-sister.

Teachers called him manipulative and intelligent.

He was misbehaving in school

Grounded recently

Spanked recently

Very obviously angry over it, he brought it up. That anger seems to have been directed at his father. Tim it seems, was in the wrong place at the wrong time

Yes, imo, and all of these things aren't merely coincidences.

He said he was going to kill his dad and he did just like he said he was going to do.

And I think more is to come. The PILE of documents were thick. The media had just begun to go through them to make their deadline.

imoo

 

[Salem]

Respectfully snipped ~

And I think more is to come. The PILE of documents were thick. The media had just begun to go through them to make their deadline.

imoo

How do you know this? Was there a picture of the docs that I missed?

Thanks,

Salem

 

[fran]

Word is they released 100's of pages of documents containing interviews. Somehow the news stations got them and released whatever they felt would get them the most press. Or,.......maybe that's all they got.

IMHO, this was a little tit-for-tat by the pros. He's still reeling from the misinformation the St. John's PD put out. You know, the part where the boy claimed to have kept a tally of the 1000 swats, that never materialized, that they used as their basis for a SW and justification for premeditated murder.

Course, then there's the release by the PD of the boy telling the grandmother his dad was shot in the chest. The St. Johns PD said only the killer would know that. Next thing ya know the autopsy shows, nope, he wasn't shot in the chest at all.

Now that the pros knows it can't use the alleged confession, they don't have too much incriminating evidence. Course, there's always Tim's wifes statement,............but then that's also tainted now that she's in it for the $$ IF it's the boy and she's stopped talking to LE. Gee........I even saw where she's never even talked to St.John's PD at all. Told 'em to call her lawyer. He's a civil lawyer, but guess it doesn't matter to her.

Well, now that the boy has been released on furlough to his mom, word is out the judge may think he's not the killer after all. How many double murderers do you know are let out while waiting trial?

This is a way for St. John's PD to save face, I reckon. Doesn't do much good IMHO,........they still look like a bunch of back-woods cowboys. Kinda' copy-cats too. This is the same BS that MG did during the SP trial. Always making a big "Ah-ha!" moment for the weekend talk shows. Didn't work for him either.

go figure,
fran

PS......Hope St John's PD isn't spending all their time trying to figure out how to get themselves out of this mess they placed themselves in and are investigating this double murder. So far, someone is getting away with murder in that little town....fran

 

[Linda7NJ]

Respectfully snipped ~

How do you know this? Was there a picture of the docs that I missed?

Thanks,

Salem

Yes, there were pics of them.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Respectfully snipped ~

How do you know this? Was there a picture of the docs that I missed?

Thanks,

Salem

Here ya go, Salem.

The video shows the stack.

http://www.kpho.com/video/index.html

imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Word is they released 100's of pages of documents containing interviews. Somehow the news stations got them and released whatever they felt would get them the most press. Or,.......maybe that's all they got.

IMHO, this was a little tit-for-tat by the pros. He's still reeling from the misinformation the St. John's PD put out. You know, the part where the boy claimed to have kept a tally of the 1000 swats, that never materialized, that they used as their basis for a SW and justification for premeditated murder.

Course, then there's the release by the PD of the boy telling the grandmother his dad was shot in the chest. The St. Johns PD said only the killer would know that. Next thing ya know the autopsy shows, nope, he wasn't shot in the chest at all.

Now that the pros knows it can't use the alleged confession, they don't have too much incriminating evidence. Course, there's always Tim's wifes statement,............but then that's also tainted now that she's in it for the $$ IF it's the boy and she's stopped talking to LE. Gee........I even saw where she's never even talked to St.John's PD at all. Told 'em to call her lawyer. He's a civil lawyer, but guess it doesn't matter to her.

Well, now that the boy has been released on furlough to his mom, word is out the judge may think he's not the killer after all. How many double murderers do you know are let out while waiting trial?

This is a way for St. John's PD to save face, I reckon. Doesn't do much good IMHO,........they still look like a bunch of back-woods cowboys. Kinda' copy-cats too. This is the same BS that MG did during the SP trial. Always making a big "Ah-ha!" moment for the weekend talk shows. Didn't work for him either.

go figure,
fran

PS......Hope St John's PD isn't spending all their time trying to figure out how to get themselves out of this mess they placed themselves in and are investigating this double murder. So far, someone is getting away with murder in that little town....fran

Respectfully, Fran, that is not true. The boy was already arrested, charged and probable cause already met when they went back looking for the journal. I think the reason they didn't find it is this boy has a huge problem with lying and the 1000 spankings never happened.

These documents weren't leaked. Once the defense has been given the discovery it becomes a public record and Judge Roca in one of his motions said the media had the rights to see documents and transcripts. Roca is the only one that can seal public documents.

I beg to differ they do have a lot of incriminating evidence and it is mounting all the time.

I believe that most of the thorough investigation in this case was done by the Arizona state agency, DPR, not the SJPD. I think they have done an extensive investigation, even going to talk with those who knew the boy, when he was in the environment of his mother and half sister.


imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/20/20081120boyconfession.html



Roca said he would uphold Arizona's public-records law, but not at the expense of the child's welfare and future. He ruled that police reports may be released, but journalists will not be given film or tape-recordings of statements, only transcripts. If that order is violated, he warned, "there's a realistic chance that somebody's going to go to jail . . . I am chilling not just the speech, but I hope the blood" of media organizations.

 

[Openmind]

The time-line

The threats the boy made in anger at family reunion

Threats he made to another child that caused that child to be so concerned he reported it to the bus driver.

The kid was quite capable of shooting his own gun & had access to it. The gun was left on the dog cage.

His own grand parents thought he was the likely killer and thought he was capable.

His own mother said he changed recently.

Friend of the family says witnessed this boy trying to drown his half-sister.

Teachers called him manipulative and intelligent.

He was misbehaving in school

Grounded recently

Spanked recently

Very obviously angry over it, he brought it up. That anger seems to have been directed at his father. Tim it seems, was in the wrong place at the wrong time

reference: http://www.azcentral.com/video/?type=mavenfull&id=videopage&videoID=1025059515


If there is any validity to these comments, then there were many warning signs that were ignored, and that is all the more the pity since two men are dead and these families are in turmoil.

The idea the child was acting out and the father was slapping and spanking his child to control his behavior is disturbing. If you act with violence, an unbalanced, desperate child might feel violence is the only way to solve his problems, as well. Since it seems easy to throw dirt on the kid, I find the information about the adults equally bad. I can't see why any healthy adult would keep a picture of a child with a black eye on his cell phone. And keeping on your cell phone is stupid. Yeah, people do it, but it speaks volumes about the adults that do.

I have often wondered why a newly married couple with a child from a previous marriage would take in a boarder. It would seem they have enough to sort through without adding another person to the mix. No matter what you consider normal, there is enough off the mark behaviors and shady backgrounds from the adults to say this family was dysfunctional. And, yes, many children endure being slapped, spanked, verbally abused, and don't react, but this child might not have had the coping skills or felt he had any support to handle the life he was living.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

reference: http://www.azcentral.com/video/?type=mavenfull&id=videopage&videoID=1025059515


If there is any validity to these comments, then there were many warning signs that were ignored, and that is all the more the pity since two men are dead and these families are in turmoil.

The idea the child was acting out and the father was slapping and spanking his child to control his behavior is disturbing. If you act with violence, an unbalanced, desperate child might feel violence is the only way to solve his problems, as well. Since it seems easy to throw dirt on the kid, I find the information about the adults equally bad. I can't see why any healthy adult would keep a picture of a child with a black eye on his cell phone. And keeping on your cell phone is stupid. Yeah, people do it, but it speaks volumes about the adults that do.

I have often wondered why a newly married couple with a child from a previous marriage would take in a boarder. It would seem they have enough to sort through without adding another person to the mix. No matter what you consider normal, there is enough off the mark behaviors and shady backgrounds from the adults to say this family was dysfunctional. And, yes, many children endure being slapped, spanked, verbally abused, and don't react, but this child might not have had the coping skills or felt he had any support to handle the life he was living.

I am not sure I agree with this. Not every parent is so worldly with psychology degrees when they have an unruly child to contend with. They, like other parents can become exasperated with the child. They grow tired and weary of the lying behavior and the violent outbursts that sometimes is chronic. Lying when lying isn't even necessary but obvious to even the most unobservant.

The threats of death, from this boy to his dad, had to make his dad want to throw up his hands. I think he had tried everything he knew how to combat this problem from rewarding him if he was the slightest bit on good behavior, to grounding him as he continued to not bring his school work home or have angry outburst. When that didn't work then he may have had the step mother spank him.

I have never slapped any of my children but I cant honestly say what I would do if they looked me in the eye in anger and told me they were going to kill me.

The report of the photo on Vincent's cell phone of a child with a black eye was an unidentified child. One would know this boy just by looking at the photo and that would have been in the police report transcript imo. We have no idea why it was on there and someone else may have sent it to him. I find it far fetched to think it was abuse of the boy and the father keep it on his phone where it could be found.

I know we took a photo of my son when he was younger when he was using a new rifle and scope. He did not hold the gun firmly and when he fired the kickback of the gun caused the scope to come back and hit him right around his eye in the perfect circle shape of the scope. It left quite a black and blue shiner and he laughs when he sees that photo now.

Guys having on their cell phones happens. Even other guys can send them .

Maybe the Romeros thought they could use the extra $200 a month to help with their finances. I don't think Tim was around much anyway. I think once he came home, showered and ate he left for the local hangout to be with the women.

imo

 

[chiperoni]

Respectfully, I'm glad you're using the word "think" OBE. We still do not know all the evidence. Thanks for the link, and I think that the judge is very aware that this child's rights were violated with a confession that was encouraged by the police (and thrown out.) With local LE's record the judge is worried any tapes could be sensationalized by the media whereas transcripts would be just as effective. I felt that there was a decisve rush to judgment when the child was persuaded to confess, and initially investigated by LE as the only suspect. Let's hope that DPR is thorough and that all scenarios are investigated including the child's environment and relationships at home. Judge Rocha does not seem to worry about the boy being out on furlough even though there is a stack of papers. He knows all the evidence presented this far. The rest is hearsay and what we think.

 

[Openmind]

I am not sure I agree with this. Not every parent is so worldly with psychology degrees when they have an unruly child to contend with. They, like other parents can become exasperated with the child. They grow tired and weary of the lying behavior and the violent outbursts that sometimes is chronic. Lying when lying isn't even necessary but obvious to even the most unobservant.

The threats of death, from this boy to his dad, had to make his dad want to throw up his hands. I think he had tried everything he knew how to combat this problem from rewarding him if he was the slightest bit on good behavior, to grounding him as he continued to not bring his school work home or have angry outburst. When that didn't work then he may have had the step mother spank him.

I have never slapped any of my children but I cant honestly say what I would do if they looked me in the eye in anger and told me they were going to kill me.

The report of the photo on Vincent's cell phone of a child with a black eye was an unidentified child. One would know this boy just by looking at the photo and that would have been in the police report transcript imo. We have no idea why it was on there and someone else may have sent it to him. I find it far fetched to think it was abuse of the boy and the father keep it on his phone where it could be found.

I know we took a photo of my son when he was younger when he was using a new rifle and scope. He did not hold the gun firmly and when he fired the kickback of the gun caused the scope to come back and hit him right around his eye in the perfect circle shape of the scope. It left quite a black and blue shiner and he laughs when he sees that photo now.

Guys having on their cell phones happens. Even other guys can send them .

Maybe the Romeros thought they could use the extra $200 a month to help with their finances. I don't think Tim was around much anyway. I think once he came home, showered and ate he left for the local hangout to be with the women.

imo

All of this is speculation on our part, and these are only my opinions of the information being reported.

I would think common sense would tell you continually hitting a defiant child is not working. I haven't seen any reports that the father exhausted all attempts at positive reinforcement, or how chronic the child's defiant behaviors had become. I do see they said he slapped his child. I never slapped any of my children and have found it the most demeaning form of discipline. It is meant to not only reinforce control but humiliate. If my child looked me in the eye and angrily said he was going to kill me, I would know my child needed my help and slapping him would not help the situation. The father was the adult, and it was his responsibility to manage himself appropriately so he could help his child. Being tired and frustrated doesn't mean you get to give up and whack your kid. And turning over the corporal punishment to a new stepmother was a great plan to help them bond and form a loving relationship. All that did was let the kid know everyone was free to hit him.

IMHO, but I think on the cell phone is trashy, but so is having a man live in your house with your young son that goes out every night to bars to hang out with the woman.

 

[MeoW333]

Is there any links to the documents shown in the news videos? The original documents and also the picture on Vincent's cell phone? Links to Romans having sexually assaulted someone? I'd rather read them as official documents than see parts on the news...
If anyone knows the direct links to them, please post them..

 

[oceanblueeyes]

All of this is speculation on our part, and these are only my opinions of the information being reported.

I would think common sense would tell you continually hitting a defiant child is not working. I haven't seen any reports that the father exhausted all attempts at positive reinforcement, or how chronic the child's defiant behaviors had become. I do see they said he slapped his child. I never slapped any of my children and have found it the most demeaning form of discipline. It is meant to not only reinforce control but humiliate. If my child looked me in the eye and angrily said he was going to kill me, I would know I my child needed my help and slapping him would not help the situation. The father was the adult, and it was his responsibility to manage himself appropriately so he could help his child. Being tired and frustrated doesn't mean you get to give up and whack your kid. And turning over the corporal punishment to a new stepmother was a great plan to help them bond and form a loving relationship. All that did was let the kid know everyone was free to hit him.

IMHO, but I think on the cell phone is trashy, but so is having a man live in your house with your young son that goes out every night to bars to hang out with the woman.

We have no evidence that the hitting was chronic. Even the 1000 spanking claim did not pan out. All we know is we heard he was given 5 swats by his stepmother right before this happened and when the boy was at a family reunion, three moths prior to his father's death, when the boy threatened to kill him is when he slapped him, when Vinnie said to him "how dare you say that". (paraphrasing)

I do agree with you that he should not have slapped him and IMO at the time it was said with others to hear it, Vinnie 's emotions were of shock and appalled his son could say such a thing and he overacted and yes he shouldn't have slapped him. I am not sure he should have seen red flags immediately. Vinnie was a young father and probably brushed it aside thinking the boy was just irate over a silly horseshoe game.

Imo, I think the opposite could have been happening in the child's life growing up. Eryn said Vinnie and the boy had a very close relationship. Before Tiffany came into the picture imo this boy was spoiled rotten and got his way about most things. He was use to his dad's undivided attention imo and when he had to share him he may have resented that and he may have resented even more that in the new marriage there were house rules and standards he was to follow.

I also agree, any of any kind, anywhere, is trashy to me but millions of people look at it, both men and women and both have trashy photos on their cell phones. We even have young teenagers, both girls and boys, these days, sending photos of their private body parts to another friend through their cell phone.

We have no evidence that this boy even knew where Tim went after work, Tiffany and Vinnie may have told him that Tim went to see his friends.

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Is there any links to the documents shown in the news videos? The original documents and also the picture on Vincent's cell phone? Links to Romans having sexually assaulted someone? I'd rather read them as official documents than see parts on the news...
If anyone knows the direct links to them, please post them..

The media are only given transcripts. They are given no pictures or recorded taped or video statements by any of the witnesses.

Some of the sites may have them loaded up on their site by Monday or a part of them.

I don't think it will include all that was in the large stack. This transcript that they have in their possession was what was found when the DPS did their lengthy investigation.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

So, let me get this straight. Bloody clothes were found, by family friends helping clean the house, in the trash where they threw them out. From a house the was released by St. John's LE ***after they finished inspecting the home and took evidence*** concerning these murders. Okay, so who are these family friends and how is it they found bloody clothing in a home that LE had been through???? Please do not tell me LE made a "booboo"! This was a crime scene!!! Yet another "professional" mess up. There is absolutely no excuse for this. Absolutely none and if anything helps point out other possible reasons those clothes were found AFTER St. John's LE was there. I'd be one pissed off DA.

I still would like to understand why, if 1 (just 1) former teacher describes this child as smart, but manipulative, no one else has. Also, if this child has such anger issues (word threats to father at a family gathering), why the heck were there loose guns and ammunition within this home??? Why did Romero even give a gun to his son????

As far as spankings go, I do not care how frustrated you are as a parent, you never resort to physical punishment. Never. If this child was having such "issues" of major concern, why did they not seek professional help for this child, even from his peditrician as a start?

As Fran has stated many times, the questions keeping growing vs having sure answers in this case. I repeat myself, yet again. There is so much more to this case.....

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Well I have been browsing other sites this morning since WS has been changing thier server and am amazed at how it seems other children have told their parents they were going to kill them, according to some of the posters. One also said her husband did slap the child's face, when it was said but not hard but just enough to get his attention. I am glad I have never had to deal with that with any of our five children.

And none of these people ever say they sought counseling for their children. I guess they just threw it off as the child being irate at the time.

I think a lot of children have issues today or think they do and rarely does the parents rush them to a head doctor but tries to cope with them the best they know how hoping it will blow over.

Yes, there seems to be more to this case, that is for sure. When this first happened we thought this child had no problems with anything whatsoever and was a good kid. IMO that is not turning out to be the case.

Spankings are not against the law. It only becomes abuse if a bruise is left and since the boy told them he was swatted five times, I am sure LE had him checked from top to bottom and found no evidence of abuse and his defense attorney did too.

imo

 

[azmama]

The time-line

His claim he was out walking around the block 10+ times doesn't hold water.

The ear & now EYE witnesses. Tanya on phone. Neighbor heard shots and sees boy outside with his dog, playing, immediately after hearing gun pops.

The threats the boy made in anger at family reunion

Threats he made to another child that caused that child to be so concerned he reported it to the bus driver.

The kid was quite capable of shooting his own gun & had access to it. The gun was left on the dog cage.

The GSR doesn't exclude him and his prints were found on the box holding ammo. That too doesn't exclude him.

His own grand parents thought he was the likely killer and thought he was capable.

His own mother said he changed recently.

Friend of the family says witnessed this boy trying to drown his half-sister.

Teachers called him manipulative and intelligent.

He was misbehaving in school

Grounded recently

Spanked recently

Very obviously angry over it, he brought it up. That anger seems to have been directed at his father. Tim it seems, was in the wrong place at the wrong time

By OBE: Well I have been browsing other sites this morning since WS has been changing thier server and am amazed at how it seems other children have told their parents they were going to kill them, according to some of the posters. One also said her husband did slap the child's face, when it was said but not hard but just enough to get his attention. I am glad I have never had to deal with that with any of our five children. The threats were toward the other children, or he told the children he was going to kill his father? I would say that both of those are alarming in any case, why were these not reported earlier? So slapping of the childs case is ACCEPTABLE so long as it was not hard and only to get his attention? NO WAY, and who is to say how hard it was....men are strong, their stregnths are under estimated sometimes, ANY slap to a childs face is unacceptable, period!

Yes, there seems to be more to this case, that is for sure. We agree on something


Spankings are not against the law. It only becomes abuse if a bruise is left and since the boy told them he was swatted five times, I am sure LE had him checked from top to bottom and found no evidence of abuse and his defense attorney did too. Was he only checked for physical abuse on the outside of his body? Were there any exams about sexual assult? In my experience children who merely experience spankings or even beatings don't turn violent towards thier abusers.

IMO all of these and referring back to the blood in his underwear that were found in his home point to a very possible sexual assult to the BOY!

I don't buy the blood from a bm idea, not all that common for children.....

Add up anger, threats toward his father, the one person who SHOULD have been protecting him, changes in his behavior, possilby wandering around alone instead of going straight home, blood found in underwear, in trouble for forgetting things, misbehaving in school, although he never had a discipline record, a "boarder" living in the house.....All of these are big red flag warning signs to me!!!

 

[MeoW333]

IMO all of these and referring back to the blood in his underwear that were found in his home point to a very possible sexual assult to the BOY!

I don't buy the blood from a bm idea, not all that common for children.....

Add up anger, threats toward his father, the one person who SHOULD have been protecting him, changes in his behavior, possilby wandering around alone instead of going straight home, blood found in underwear, in trouble for forgetting things, misbehaving in school, although he never had a discipline record, a "boarder" living in the house.....All of these are big red flag warning signs to me!!!

I agree with this. Does anyone have the link where Tim was arrested for a sexual assault? Tim was a boarder that had a bedroom right in the house the main part where the Romans lived. It wasn't like he was renting a room over the garage; he lived right in the house with them. That's easy access to the boy. It's also not a healthy environment for the boy to have a man living in their house who had a supposed sexual assault accusation against him, bullets shot at his truck, suspected of drug deals, cheated on his wife asking another woman to marry him, was known to be a drunk barfly, get in fights at bars and at work. I would never ever let a man like that around my children, let alone live in my house!

 

[MeoW333]

PS- Blood in the boy's underwear certainly wouldn't have been from a spanking by a hand. Unless it was a beating with something or a sexual assault. IMO