AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #5

[oceanblueeyes]

My theory is kinda like this: Somebody using the automatic .22 shot the men, CR comes home as that person(s) either run out back or as CR goes up the stairs- sneak out the front and on to a waiting vehicle. CR finds the men, goes to his dad and MAYBE even as he said- 'made him not suffer' (or not) and the same for Tim. Also remember the round still in the chamber which he said 'in case the bad guys come back'... which makes some sense. So little GSR on the boy means he couldn't have done much, unless he washed up or switched clothes that they didn't bother to check for.
I am confused about where the boy says he 'saw someone going toward the house' as he was walking up- Was this Tim moving toward the house? Could the person have been moving away instead? Was someone shooting at Tim from a vehicle? Did they slip out the back? Was the back door open or unlocked?
I also am not sure about the stacked weapons by the upstairs window. Was someone looking out of there and saw the men drive up? Was CR checking out the weapons when he wasn't supposed to mess with them? I am still confused over this scenario. Maybe one day the plea deal will be dropped, and a big evidence dump follows thereafter... then we can get down to some real sluething :Justice: .

I think the GSR does prove that he was there at the time these murders were occurring.

GSR comes out in a cone shape, out of the barrel of the gun, traveling behind the path of the bullet. More GSR will be found on the victim or in locations closer to the victim especially if a rifle or shotgun is used. It quickly begins to drop within 3 to 5 feet. With this barrel being much longer than a handgun barrel it put the GSR further away from the shooter.

Proper protocol was not done, which forensic investigators say the clothing should be taken as evidence immediately as GSR is easy to erode away just by normal activity of etc. hugging, touching, sitting or laying down on a bed in the same clothes. The GSR particles are so tiny many times they cannot be seen with the naked eye. These clothes were not taken in until about 19 hours later after much activity had happened the Romero grandparents' household due to the death of Vinnie.

The three dozens particles, which means they have to have all three required elements found in each one to be classified as GSR... is quite significant. There was even an article where one of the experts did say it was highly significant and put him at the scene when all this was happening.

Phil Spector will probably die in prison and GSR was front and center in his case and he had only 1 or 2 deposits of GSR. So 36 particles still being there after 19 hours under the circumstances is a very large amount. AND forensic firearm experts only test a sample of certain areas of the clothing..... they do not go over ever inch of the clothing. They look for the areas where the GSR would be if the person is the shooter or to rule them out as being the shooter. Like the chest area, sleeves and thighs of the pants and lower pants leg and back of clothing. The 36 particles were right where they would be if he was the shooter. In the chest area, sleeve, and thigh. They found none on the back of his clothing yet he said he came into a cloud of white smoke and if that had been remotely true they would have found evidence of GSR on his top shoulder areas and the backside of his clothing as it sifted down all around him.

imo

 

[fran]

From what I've read, GSR can remain in clothing even after it's been laundered. I understand this child's clothes were very dirty when LE retrieved them 19 hours later on the floor of the grandparent's home.

I believe the last sentence it pretty explanatory. Coming from and EXPERT too.

Howard contends that gunshot residue is virtually useless in proving guilt, but the lack of particles may exonerate defendants.

JMHO
fran



http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106stjohns.html

....................snip..........................

A report from the Bexar County Criminal Investigation Lab in Texas says more than three-dozen particles of lead, antimony and barium were found on a long-sleeved shirt and denim pants the boy wore the day his father and a friend were killed. Michael Martinez, a forensic scientist who analyzed the garments, concluded that the clothing may have come in contact with, or been close to, a discharged firearm.

However, the FBI and other law-enforcement agencies have stopped using gunshot-residue tests because cross-contamination and other problems can lead to dubious conclusions.

.......................snip............................

Residue controversial

Howard said gunshot residue has become controversial in the forensics world because innocent defendants can be tainted without firing a weapon, especially if they sat in a patrol car, touched a gun or were near the weapon when it was fired.The St. Johns boy was from a hunting family and had been in the room where his father died.

Police records say the boy's pants and shirt were retrieved from a relative's home the day after the slayings. Howard said he would expect to find dozens of particles under those circumstances, "even if he took the clothes and hung them in a closet."

John Cayton, a firearms examiner and former chief criminalist with the Kansas City, Mo., Police Department, said residue testing remains an important tool and described the number of particles found on the boy's clothes as "significant." But he also questioned whether the garments were contaminated elsewhere. Cayton added that it is not uncommon for small-town investigators to overlook evidentiary protocols because they often lack training and experience with homicides.

Boston police scrapped gunshot-residue tests in 2005 and the FBI followed suit a year later after acknowledging widespread contamination in its own lab, according to the Sun of Baltimore. Numerous other agencies have re-evaluated their validity.

Howard contends that gunshot residue is virtually useless in proving guilt, but the lack of particles may exonerate defendants.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Steven Howard is a defense attorney who DEFENDS clients. What do you expect him to say?

He can whistle that tune all day long but GSR is in just about every state murder case that was committed with a firearm. Since on average an a defense attorney only wins 10% of his cases if he is a seasoned attorney it seems most jurors thinks GSR is very telling.


imo

 

[OrdinaryLife]

Steven Howard is a defense attorney who DEFENDS clients. What do you expect him to say?

He can whistle that tune all day long but GSR is in just about every state murder case that was committed with a firearm. Since on average an a defense attorney only wins 10% of his cases if he is a seasoned attorney it seems most jurors thinks GSR is very telling.


imo

A Defense Attorney does what he is hired to do and work with what he/she has for their client. In their town, county, State. This is not about a percentage of "wins". Your point is of an opinion. Nothing is ever black or white. The conundrum that drives many nuts.

There is more to this case/story.....

 

[oceanblueeyes]

A Defense Attorney does what he is hired to do and work with what he/she has for their client. In their town, county, State. This is not about a percentage of "wins". Your point is of an opinion. Nothing is ever black or white. The conundrum that drives many nuts.

There is more to this case/story.....[/QUOTE]

There is more to this case? I don't know what you mean. Seems it will be over when the deposition of the case is finalized unless the kid re-offends later on down the road.

You are right, course they do. They are there to try and refute any evidence that may harm their client. GSR found on the defendant's clothing is always a big deal in a state court case.

I was not referring to the percentages of wins but showing that the vast majority of the time when GSR is entered by the State as evidence it is believed by the jurors.

imo

 

[Fairy1]

I don't believe the science of gunshot residue analysis is questionable at all. However, in THIS case, it was not conclusive as evidence the boy was the shooter. That's important to me and based on the statements we have seen, whatever the findings in THIS case, would not have helped the prosecution at trial. Whether or not it was instrumental in the negotiation of the plea deal is probably something we will never know. IMO...

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I don't believe the science of gunshot residue analysis is questionable at all. However, in THIS case, it was not conclusive as evidence the boy was the shooter. That's important to me and based on the statements we have seen, whatever the findings in THIS case, would not have helped the prosecution at trial. Whether or not it was instrumental in the negotiation of the plea deal is probably something we will never know. IMO...

Nothing but a plea was going to help the prosecution or the defense. Like Whiting said he could not take the chance that Roca would rule the boy age incompetent and neither victim get any justice at all. The defense was also scared that Roca may dismiss count one. Imo, Wood knew they have the evidence to charge him later with premeditated murder of his father that is why he was willing to plea to save the kid from spending serious prison time later when he wouldn't be a 9 year old anymore That is why there was a plea deal because both sides were unwilling to take a chance and roll the dice. They each had too much to lose.

I don't see how you deduce that Fairy. I have never seen a case yet where GSR was found on a suspect or their clothing that it just didn't mean a thing to a jury. I don't think it would have been ignored in this case either. If the GSR in Phil Spector's case was only 1 or 2 GSR particles then it darn sure would have made a statement if over three dozen particles were found 19 hours later when the clothes were taken in this one.

All the jargon listed in the report is the same way they phrase it in every case. Then it is entered at trial and along with other forensic and circumstantial evidence (like the time line) it will bolster that in their opinion the defendant was the shooter.

In this case it is where the GSR was located and it is totally consistent with him being the shooter.......not walking in afterward into a cloud of smoke. The only way he couldn't be the shooter is if he was standing within 3 feet of the shooter when they were firing and not one person has ever connected another suspect entering that home or for that matter coming out of the home but the boy was seen leaving about 1-2 minutes after the gunshots were heard.


imo

 

[Fairy1]

Nothing but a plea was going to help the prosecution or the defense. Like Whiting said he could not take the chance that Roca would rule the boy age incompetent and neither victim get any justice at all. The defense was also scared that Roca may dismiss count one. Imo, Wood knew they have the evidence to charge him later with premeditated murder of his father that is why he was willing to plea to save the kid from spending serious prison time later when he wouldn't be a 9 year old anymore That is why there was a plea deal because both sides were unwilling to take a chance and roll the dice. They each had too much to lose.

I don't see how you deduce that Fairy. I have never seen a case yet where GSR was found on a suspect or their clothing that it just didn't mean a thing to a jury. I don't think it would have been ignored in this case either. If the GSR in Phil Spector's case was only 1 or 2 GSR particles then it darn sure would have made a statement if over three dozen particles were found 19 hours later when the clothes were taken in this one.

All the jargon listed in the report is the same way they phrase it in every case. Then it is entered at trial and along with other forensic and circumstantial evidence (like the time line) it will bolster that in their opinion the defendant was the shooter.

In this case it is where the GSR was located and it is totally consistent with him being the shooter.......not walking in afterward into a cloud of smoke. The only way he couldn't be the shooter is if he was standing within 3 feet of the shooter when they were firing and not one person has ever connected another suspect entering that home or for that matter coming out of the home but the boy was seen leaving about 1-2 minutes after the gunshots were heard.


imo

I know you don't get where I'm coming from OBE. But you do know the evidence that has been released in this case and, NO, the GSR evidence was NOT consistent with the child being the shooter. I believe you know that too.

There never was, and will never be, a jury in this case. If there had been, IMO, the GSR "evidence" would have been a wash between the pros and def - had it ever been introduced at all.

You and I will never agree on what happened in this case. But PLEASE, let's at least recognize the evidence to which we have been made privy does not - beyond a reasonable doubt - show that this CHILD is guilty.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I know you don't get where I'm coming from OBE. But you do know the evidence that has been released in this case and, NO, the GSR evidence was NOT consistent with the child being the shooter. I believe you know that too.

There never was, and will never be, a jury in this case. If there had been, IMO, the GSR "evidence" would have been a wash between the pros and def - had it ever been introduced at all.

You and I will never agree on what happened in this case. But PLEASE, let's at least recognize the evidence to which we have been made privy does not - beyond a reasonable doubt - show that this CHILD is guilty.

Good Morning Fairy! Just releasing those documents that were publicly displayed while sealing others is certainly not enough to find this boy BARD in a court of law. I don't think there is really any case that does that. That is why we have trials. While the reports are written they are not the human beings who will then come forth and testify to their expert opinions in court. That is where it is proved, not here unless the case is plead out and up to 90% of the cases ends in plea deals.

IMO it does show him to be the shooter. It wasn't so much the amount, although that is highly significant but it was the LOCATION! LOCATION! LOCATION! If this had gone to trial then the experts would have shown the very areas of his shirt and pants that had GSR particles found on them to the Judge. They are totally consistent with him being the shooter. They are not consistent with him walking into some imaginary white smoke cloud. This was a .22.

I respect your opinion highly and I do understand how you see it the way you do but for me the time line, no alibi, seen 1-2 minutes later leaving the home after gunshots were heard and where the GSR was located, makes me feel without any question this kid is indeed guilty of both murders.

imo

 

[southcitymom]

http://www.azfamily.com/news/homepa...09-child-murder-suspect-custody.870630d7.html

UPDATE: The state prosecutor's motion to revoke the St. John' boy's furlogh has been withdrawn.

3TV's Mike Watkiss reports both parties went behind closed doors and agreed to a new set of furlough conditions.

Very interesting! Thanks, mostly!

 

[fran]

IMO it does show him to be the shooter. It wasn't so much the amount, although that is highly significant but it was the LOCATION! LOCATION! LOCATION! If this had gone to trial then the experts would have shown the very areas of his shirt and pants that had GSR particles found on them to the Judge. They are totally consistent with him being the shooter. They are not consistent with him walking into some imaginary white smoke cloud. This was a .22.

I respect your opinion highly and I do understand how you see it the way you do but for me the time line, no alibi, seen 1-2 minutes later leaving the home after gunshots were heard and where the GSR was located, makes me feel without any question this kid is indeed guilty of both murders.

imo

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoubl...ntLibraryManager/upload/sanantioniolabrpt.pdf

This is a link to the GSR report. If you could show me where they don't show any traces of GSR on the back of the boy's shirt, I'd appreciate it. Looks to me as if they only looked where they WANTED to find traces. But it still isn't enough to prove him the shooter. If you note, the report says, "Based on the mophology and elemental composition of these particles, the blue denim pants may have come in contact with a discharged firearm or was in close proximity to a discharged firearm."

It says the same thing for the shirt, front and cuffs..............and this is the report from the EXPERTS.

The child indicated that he'd layed on the floor by his dad when he found him. See as how the majority of the GSR comes out the end of the gun, imho, there would be quite a bit of GSR lying on the carpeting around his dad's body. In order to prove that the GSR on his clothing was NOT from the carpeting, they would have to test the carpeting. But, too late now.

Oh, and also, GSR doesn't necessarily come out when clothing is laundered.

10's of 1000's of GSR particles came out of that rifle during each shot fired. There were 10 shots fired within the confines of that home. There was most likely GSR reeking on every surface in that home.

Oh, and FWIW, that Spector guy was tested the night of the murder at the scene and the GSR was found on his hand. One or two particles from that scene doesn't mean anything. He could have picked up one or two particles by touching a surface that a particle or two landed on.

About the timing..............Tanya talked to Tim until about 17:55. The 911 call came in at 5:06.........that would leave 11 minutes for the shooting to happen, the boy coming upon the two murdered men, letting the dog out of his cage and walking to a neighbors, having the neighbor's dad come home and the phone call.

Nope, I'm still not convinced beyond a doubt he's the shooter.

JMHO
fran

PS.........does anyone know why Nicole needed a box of 22 shells a week or so before the murders???????

PPS.........wonder who the unknown guy was that walked briskly away from the neighborhood at about the time LE got there? The one that was picked up down the street by a gray primered car?????????? that sped away, southbound.......

 

[dgfred]

I suppose it is the way each person perceives things. I have shot the very same type of youth model this boy did. Mine was like CRs, handed down and had been used very frequently over the years. It makes the mechanism of the gun very easy. Nothing is stiff due to constant use and caring for the weapon.

This did not happen in a few short seconds total time. Vinnie walked into his home at 4:52 and the boy did not call out for Tim for almost 180 seconds or 3 minutes. That is more than ample time to shoot this weapon 4 times. It takes about 6 seconds to go through all of the stages from ejecting, reloading, aiming and firing.

Watch how quickly kids do it when they are at a turkey shoot contest and have to hit the bullseye as many times as they can in a minute. It is not only doable it is very doable imo. It not only gave him time to follow through with the shooting but to maneuver himself each time to give himself the best advantage. I have always felt CR was hidden somewhere in the house in line with the stairwell and Vinnie never exactly knew what was happening until it was too late. That is why he had no close up shots. The boy kept his distance imo.

And he kept his distance when it came to Tim except the one shot when Tim was no longer able to resist. I believe where Tim lay dead on the porch by the greenery is where CR was standing when Tim fell there and never advanced anymore. At his height and as thick as the greenery is it would be hard for Tim to see exactly where the shots were coming from and it would work as a perfect blind for CR. He hunted small game he knew how to stand behind an obstruction until right before he stepped out to take his shot. This was the gun that CR said was easy to use. He was very familiar with the gun.

imo

I'm going to argue each of your points just to show the other side of the debate.
*No matter your opinion and not matter how familier the boy was with the gun... firing a single-shot bolt action rifle in a tense situation with the extra shells either in your hand or pocket is REALLY difficult.
*You base your timeline on TR's wife's supposidly hearing the boy. Maybe she did not hear him, could it have been a female voice? Why did neither hear any shots if they were able to hear the boy's voice? Doesn't make sense.
*In a turkey shoot, you either have a clip for a .22 or you DON'T fire that quickly. The time you say CR was 'maneuvering' around for the best shot, he would have to be ejecting and reloading a new round... not maneuvering.
*Shots to the head could be considered 'close up' since it might have been just over arms length. So he calmly fired at a friend that was a grown man moving toward him as he calmly ejected and reloaded a single shell for the next shot?
*"He was very familier with the gun"... maybe, but it also has been stated that only 2 shots were known to come from that gun and the other 'could' have??? What? They could have come from ANOTHER too. Easy to use is one thing, firing/ejecting/reloading under stress is another.
What about the lack of prints on his gun, did he wipe it down too? How on earth could someone fire a gun that many times (10?) and have that LITTLE amount of GSR on him, it is not realistic to think that imo.

 

[dgfred]

Good Morning Fairy! Just releasing those documents that were publicly displayed while sealing others is certainly not enough to find this boy BARD in a court of law. I don't think there is really any case that does that. That is why we have trials. While the reports are written they are not the human beings who will then come forth and testify to their expert opinions in court. That is where it is proved, not here unless the case is plead out and up to 90% of the cases ends in plea deals.

IMO it does show him to be the shooter. It wasn't so much the amount, although that is highly significant but it was the LOCATION! LOCATION! LOCATION! If this had gone to trial then the experts would have shown the very areas of his shirt and pants that had GSR particles found on them to the Judge. They are totally consistent with him being the shooter. They are not consistent with him walking into some imaginary white smoke cloud. This was a .22.

I respect your opinion highly and I do understand how you see it the way you do but for me the time line, no alibi, seen 1-2 minutes later leaving the home after gunshots were heard and where the GSR was located, makes me feel without any question this kid is indeed guilty of both murders.

imo

I disagree, the low amount of GSR shows more that he did not fire all the shots, it just isn't feasible. That little amount of particles show more that he couldn't have fired 10 shots... there would have been MUCH more. So neighbors can hear gunshots, but TR and his wife could not even closer???
GSR can not be one of your main reasons for thinking the boy is guilty, that is very weak evidence imo.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoubl...ntLibraryManager/upload/sanantioniolabrpt.pdf

This is a link to the GSR report. If you could show me where they don't show any traces of GSR on the back of the boy's shirt, I'd appreciate it. Looks to me as if they only looked where they WANTED to find traces. But it still isn't enough to prove him the shooter. If you note, the report says, "Based on the mophology and elemental composition of these particles, the blue denim pants may have come in contact with a discharged firearm or was in close proximity to a discharged firearm."

It says the same thing for the shirt, front and cuffs..............and this is the report from the EXPERTS.

The child indicated that he'd layed on the floor by his dad when he found him. See as how the majority of the GSR comes out the end of the gun, imho, there would be quite a bit of GSR lying on the carpeting around his dad's body. In order to prove that the GSR on his clothing was NOT from the carpeting, they would have to test the carpeting. But, too late now.

Oh, and also, GSR doesn't necessarily come out when clothing is laundered.

10's of 1000's of GSR particles came out of that rifle during each shot fired. There were 10 shots fired within the confines of that home. There was most likely GSR reeking on every surface in that home.

Oh, and FWIW, that Spector guy was tested the night of the murder at the scene and the GSR was found on his hand. One or two particles from that scene doesn't mean anything. He could have picked up one or two particles by touching a surface that a particle or two landed on.

About the timing..............Tanya talked to Tim until about 17:55. The 911 call came in at 5:06.........that would leave 11 minutes for the shooting to happen, the boy coming upon the two murdered men, letting the dog out of his cage and walking to a neighbors, having the neighbor's dad come home and the phone call.

Nope, I'm still not convinced beyond a doubt he's the shooter.

JMHO
fran

PS.........does anyone know why Nicole needed a box of 22 shells a week or so before the murders???????

PPS.........wonder who the unknown guy was that walked briskly away from the neighborhood at about the time LE got there? The one that was picked up down the street by a gray primered car?????????? that sped away, southbound.......

I fully respect that you have reasonable doubt, Fran.

It is obvious that we look at the evidence through our own eyes, personal experiences and interpret it on an individual basis as we should.

If, as you have said is true and they checked the areas they thought would show that he was the shooter then strangely they found GSR in those areas. Surely if the boy laid by his father's side for minutes then his shirt and jeans would have been covered with much GSR picked up in that general area where the GSR was directed, wouldn't it?

I do not put the time line together as you do.

At 4:52 pm Tim Romans told his wife that Vinnie had just walked through the door of his home.

At 4:55 pm Tim hung up the phone. Just disregard the reason if you don't want to believe Tanya, which I 100% do. Cell phone records actually captures the times and it is the time that is important.

At around 5:00 pm neighbors hear gunshots.

Within a minute or two the neighbors see the kid patting Nellie on the head and walking away from the home.

Then all of these events had to transpire after he left.

Walk to neighbors that lived in back of his home.
Tell the juvenile what he had found.
Juvenile calling his dad who was away from his home to come.
Waits for the juvenile's dad to arrive and come to Romero residence to see for himself that indeed a body is laying on the Romero porch and the 911 call came in by 5:03 pm. The after events is not the time it took these murders to occur. It took both of them about 8 minutes total to complete.

So if it was the boy, which I believe it was, it took him approximately 2/12- 3 minutes to fire 4 shots killing his father.Then since Tim was shot 6 times it must have taken him about 4-5 minutes and Tim was a moving target out in the open and not one that was caught in a stairwell.

So the hearing of gunshots is very consistent with all of these events.
The seeing of the boy within a minute or two after then leaving is very consistent with the time line. And it is very consistent with him being the sole shooter.

What it did do it gave him a minute to push Tim's head aside so he could get back in the door after shooting Tim dead to check and make sure his dad was dead before leaving and then flinging the cage door open letting Nellie out and placing the peashooter on the dog cage right close to the door.

There was no additional time to place his book bag under the kitchen table or to race through the house looking for dad nor sit by his side. Not even for a minute. He did these crimes, imo and he got out of there so he could say he discovered the bodies just like so many other criminals have tried to say. He sure didn't want to be caught inside if Tiffany drove up to see a dead man on her porch and discover her husband's body on the stairs.

imo

 

[dgfred]

In my opinion the 'ear' witnesses are not reliable. I have problems with Tanya's recollection as well as the neighbors... weird how one doesn't hear gunshots, but can hear voices- the other doesn't see anything until they hear gunshots, but doesn't do anything or call anyone... just remembers later.
I agree he may have been petting the dog... it had to be going bonkers in that house with all the gunfire and such, it probably needed comforting.

So the thinking is that he has GSR on a couple of places that show 'consistant' as being the shooter, but very, very little. Wonder why large amounts were NOT found after firing 10 shots in a confined area???

 

[oceanblueeyes]

People can have apartments sitting side by side with just a wall separating them from each other that haven't heard gunshots when victims were killed. That is why many times a family member who has not heard from their loved one will come by to check and find them inside their dwelling murdered by a firearm while no one that lived right or left of them heard a thing.

If Tim had heard gunshots coming from that home he would have taken his weapon which was right there beside him when he tried to come to the aide of this kid. Tim didn't hear any shots either imo.

The outside shots would be heard though as noise is allowed to travel rather than being absorbed inside an enclosed home that has many sound buffers.

I have no reason to discount the neighbors or Tanya. None of these people had a clue that this time line would all fit together like a glove. It makes perfect sense. We know that Romans was very much alive at 4:55 pm and shortly thereafter the shots were heard and the boy seen 1-2 minutes later walking away from the scene.

Yes, no doubt Nellie was traumatized by all of this. Most dogs are very fearful of gunshots unless they have been trained and she was only a 6 month old puppy. I am sure she couldn't wait to get out of that locked up cage. Usually a dog that is scared will try to find them a place to hide. Nellie wasnt afforded that. She was locked up with no where to go until let out.

imoo

 

[dgfred]

IMO the timeline of the neighbors is not correct and was an estimate.

 

[fran]

The neighbor said he saw the truck pull up in front and then he went to change his baby's diaper. It was while he was changing the baby's diaper that he claims to have heard the popping sound. He's 'estimating' that it was 2 minutes later he saw the boy out in front walking towards the neighbors. When you don't know that time is of the essence, you're not looking at the clock and timing everything. How long does it take to change a baby's diaper?

This guy also said he heard 4 shots. But we all know that Tim was shot 6 times. So..........IF it was Tim being shot that this neighbor heard, because the door was most likely open, why didn't he hear the 5th and 6th shots? Maybe there wasn't 4 or 5 seconds in between the shots but it was more he just didn't hear two shots that were in between what he remembers hearing. His wife was also home that day and she didn't hear or see a thing.

There was also a witness who was standing out in front of a neighbors, about 50 yards from the scene. She was waiting for the home's occupant to arrive. She claims she was there from 16:58 to 17:01 talking on her cell phone while waiting.............she saw nor heard NOTHING. She's out in the open, NOT in a closed up house and she didn't hear anything. She also didn't see the victims pull up either but a guy across the street, inside his home, changing his baby's diaper, sees the victims, hears the shots, sees the boy, all while taking care of his child. He knew the EXACT timing????? I don't think so.

Now, who's right?????? These are all within the same time period. It's been proven over and over that often times, 'eye witnesses' are UNRELIABLE.

Heck, the boy said he layed by his dad at the top of the stairs for 30 minutes. He may have been there but a minute, but to an 8 yo child, it was an eternity.

Tanya's Statement

I'm not saying this is on purpose, but I believe Tanya's statement has taken on a life of it's own. When she ORIGINALLY gave a statement to LE on the phone the night of the incident, she did NOT tell them she heard the boy. She said Tim said something's wrong and he'd call her back. Yet the next day she told them she heard the boy call her husband. One statement said she heard him call Tim and another said she heard someone and she asked who it was? and Tim said the boy's name.

I'm sorry, but I don't feel this statement is reliable. I know she's trying, but she was completely distraught and in the high emotion of the time period, I don't think she really remembers exactly what may have been said or who she heard.

Just like the child's memory has been altered by suggestion, he probably doesn't know exactly what happened that day. Children his age tend to mix memory of one incident with another. Now that his recollection of that day has been messed up by two unqualified LE officers, they may never find out the truth of that day.



GSR

Some of the GSR particles located on the child's clothes were on the thighs of the pant legs. This would be consistant with lying on the ground where GSR had landed after a gun had been discharged. We don't know if there was GSR anywhere else on his clothing because they didn't test that. We also don't know how much was on the carpeting surrounding the victims. It's also too late to test it.

IF the child layed on the ground and his hands touched the carpeting which had to have been covered with GSR particles, he would get it on his hands and the cuffs of the sleeves. He then, later, puts his hands in his pocket of his levis and voila,..........GSR on the pockets.

I believe that a person using an automatic 22 rifle would be able to knock off 10 rounds in less than a minute..........maybe even 30 seconds.

There's still the matter of 8 of the shells were NOT through the alleged murder weapon. Where's the rifle that shot those shells? Did it disappear?

JMHO
fran

PS.......FWIW, IMO, the tight timeline actually speaks more for an automatic being used than a single shot bolt action....fran

 

[Trino]

CR has been evaluated by psychologists. Certainly, they asked him/are asking him about the murders, and I'm guess the boy told them he killed his father, as well as Tim. If the boy in any way stated he did not do these crimes, I'm sure the report would/will say so.

 

[dgfred]

CR has been evaluated by psychologists. Certainly, they asked him/are asking him about the murders, and I'm guess the boy told them he killed his father, as well as Tim. If the boy in any way stated he did not do these crimes, I'm sure the report would/will say so.

Well certainly he would be confused about it no matter what. The power of suggestion is a mighty thing, and he has listened to and heard multiple sessions claiming him as the shooter... the only one so far. Not just suggestion in the video, in several court sessions since and by talk in general.
If the boy was claiming to be the only shooter, I am sure the test/evaluations would NOT be taking this long and the prosecution would be quite happy with the results. Since this is not the case and they seem to be using stalling tactics instead, one can guess on their own that the evaluations are not exactly what the prosecution has wanted.
If the boy was claiming to not be the shooter, who would want to believe that from the prosecution's side? After all, what little evidence they have says he is the only suspect and the evidence shows he 'could' have been the shooter. They probably would say he is blocking it out.
In my opinion whether the shooter or not, the feeling of guilt would be immense and he may feel he did do something wrong that caused their deaths even if he didn't. I believe the evaluators are probably confused with their own evaluations.