AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #5

[oceanblueeyes]

ITA, fran. A lot of this case is speculation on our part. Still, I have a 17 year old son who is brilliant. However, thinking back to when he was 8 or 9, he could never have pulled off what this child has been accused of doing. Then again, we're not a hunting family and my children have no true-life experience with firearms.

Seems to me the smaller ammo would be more difficult for a child of this age to handle effectively. Remember when we were little how we had those big, fat pencils in school? I suppose they still do that, but, IIRC, it's because little hands cannot grasp and control small things.

It is exactly the tight window of time that leads me, personally, to believe this child did not kill these men. It would have to have been absolutely flawless from beginning to end. No matter how manipulative and intelligent this child is rumored to have been/be, I just can't see this having happened.

And finally, I'm not sure how much time the shrinks seeing him now need if he has "confessed" to them that he did, in fact, murder his father and Tim. Then again, we will probably never know what he reveals to them. I suppose we will have to speculate even more based on the sentencing. Based on what we've seen so far, I just don't have the feeling the court considers this little boy to be a cold-blooded murderer. That's JMO.

Actually it isn't, Fairy.

The youth model rifle is designed with that purpose in mind. It is a smaller version of the adult longer and heavier .22 rifle. It is made on a smaller scale to accommodate the smaller hands of the youth that uses it for hunting or target practice. The bullets are easy to grip and they are of a lighter weight.

imo

 

[dgfred]

I think they may be very perplexed as to what they are uncovering in a boy so young. I think it makes them think they need more time with him to assess him and further peel away the onion skin.

Well I certainly believe that he is the sole shooter. Nothing points away from this kid. Nothing.

I think that may be the problem. He may have admitted that he killed both men. I do believe he has already told others the same thing but I am not sure he has any guilt or remorse for what he has done and that may be why the evaluators are left scratching their heads and needing more time.

imo

How conveinient for the prosecution. First he is found 'not competent', but then he gets the plea deal. Next he is evaluated for how long... like 4+ months before sentencing? During this time, the sole shooter/murderer/psychotic rambo kid/hit man/cold blooded killer admits he killed both men after planning it and his alibi to the evaluators. Thereby, the judge allows this (see above) kid to go live with his mom, she couldn't be in any danger at all.......... yeah right. Their scratching their heads alright, trying to figure out how they can keep the front up that they have the killer, he is not a danger to anyone, he can live with his mom, nobody needs to worry and everyone should just forget about it and live their lives... nothing wrong here/nothing to see... move along people.

 

[dgfred]

Actually it isn't, Fairy.

The youth model rifle is designed with that purpose in mind. It is a smaller version of the adult longer and heavier .22 rifle. It is made on a smaller scale to accommodate the smaller hands of the youth that uses it for hunting or target practice. The bullets are easy to grip and they are of a lighter weight.

imo

The rifle is not designed for the shooter to be moving about, loading and reloading, under stress with a grown man moving toward them either... without dropping shells or missing the moving target. The weight of the bullets is no matter, the entire problem is putting each shell into the chamber (while moving) under stress. Your scenarios have this boy calmly firing at a man (friend?), hitting him, calmly reloading, shooting him again and so on. Not to mention he had just killed his dad in your scenario... calm indeed.

 

[fran]

Sorry OBE, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Your whole scenario is based on the ASSUMPTIONS that everything that coulda', shoulda', woulda', has been done.

I prefer FACTS.

Until or IF I see the answers to the open questions I personally have, I do not believe this child did the crime.

IMHO, this case is a prime example of why the "Innocence Project" is gaining steam. It's truly disheartening to realize how many people behind bars may be innocent. In addition, how many people are walking the streets unpunished because someone else took the fall.

I've watched a lot of cases, but I've never seen the media manipulated the way this Arizona pros did here. Or...........maybe that's just it, maybe 1/2 of what we've seen in the cases here on Websleuths is BS. Orchestrated by a pros and LE agency that are supposed to portect us. Who's going to protect us from them when they decide someone's guilty? One way or the other, they'll prove it, no matter what they have to {hide}. They're making themselves the jury and executioner by 'withholding' exculpatory evidence. If people can't see that, well, it just proves my case.

Disturbing,
fran

PS......No, I don't think Tim and Vince were super-heros that could outrun bullets. I just don't believe this child is mighty-mouse, which is what he would have to be in order to outwit, outshoot, these to grown men with a pea shooter.

PPS....Although he didn't deserve what happened to him, let's not put a halo on Tim. He was a KNOWN drug dealer who had street dealers distributing for him. He had enemies. Just ask the family spokesman who worked for him per the reservation police. They might even check with Tim's cousin, the drug addict who shot at his truck. Maybe he came to even a score....then there's Misty's b/f. He was "crazy." Maybe he found out Tim was (...........) with his g/f in the backroom of the bar.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

How convenient for the prosecution. First he is found 'not competent', but then he gets the plea deal. Next he is evaluated for how long... like 4+ months before sentencing? During this time, the sole shooter/murderer/psychotic rambo kid/hit man/cold blooded killer admits he killed both men after planning it and his alibi to the evaluators. Thereby, the judge allows this (see above) kid to go live with his mom, she couldn't be in any danger at all.......... yeah right. Their scratching their heads alright, trying to figure out how they can keep the front up that they have the killer, he is not a danger to anyone, he can live with his mom, nobody needs to worry and everyone should just forget about it and live their lives... nothing wrong here/nothing to see... move along people.

Roca never ruled him to be age incompetent and it is up to Roca not the doctors to decide that. The doctors just offer their opinions and he was never to be ruled "incompetent" anyway. This was not a mental competency issue about his mental state. It is a judicial standard concerning AGE incompetency to see if he is capable of understanding all the legalese in a court trial proceeding from beginning to end.

A plea deal is much more simple. It is about him knowing right from wrong and admitting that he killed Tim Romans. Not one of the doctors will say this boy didn't know exactly what he was doing when he lay in wait and did these dastardly murders. I fully think he has told the evaluators that he did kill both of these men. He is a chatter and I think he likes to talk which is very good when assessing a patient such as him.

If they are so sure he is not a danger then why haven't they come out and said that months ago?

If you want to call him Rambo then have at it. lol Frankly I call him a coward. I think anyone that murders unsuspecting unarmed people are cowards.

imo

 

[dgfred]

If you now want to call the boy a 9 yr old murdering coward... have at it. No wonder you can't see anything but what fits your scenario. I prefer to call him an 8+ yr old boy, in a crappy situation at home, with alot of ammo laying around and rifles at the ready. A powderkeg waiting to blow.

Roca has ruled that he is no danger to ANYONE by letting him stay with his mom all this time... do you disagree with that also? Let's hear your reasons!

You don't have a clue as to what the doctors will say, if you do, put up a link.
I 'think' he has told them the same thing he first said in the interview/interrogation, and since this doesn't fit with what they want to do they keep on digging. If anything, in my opinion he is likely suffering from 'false guilt' too.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Sorry OBE, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Your whole scenario is based on the ASSUMPTIONS that everything that coulda', shoulda', woulda', has been done.

I prefer FACTS.

Until or IF I see the answers to the open questions I personally have, I do not believe this child did the crime.

IMHO, this case is a prime example of why the "Innocence Project" is gaining steam. It's truly disheartening to realize how many people behind bars may be innocent. In addition, how many people are walking the streets unpunished because someone else took the fall.

I've watched a lot of cases, but I've never seen the media manipulated the way this Arizona pros did here. Or...........maybe that's just it, maybe 1/2 of what we've seen in the cases here on Websleuths is BS. Orchestrated by a pros and LE agency that are supposed to portect us. Who's going to protect us from them when they decide someone's guilty? One way or the other, they'll prove it, no matter what they have to {hide}. They're making themselves the jury and executioner by 'withholding' exculpatory evidence. If people can't see that, well, it just proves my case.

Disturbing,
fran

PS......No, I don't think Tim and Vince were super-heros that could outrun bullets. I just don't believe this child is mighty-mouse, which is what he would have to be in order to outwit, outshout, these to grown men with a pea shooter.

PPS....Although he didn't deserve what happened to him, let's not put a halo on Tim. He was a KNOWN drug dealer who had street dealers distributing for him. He had enemies. Just ask the family spokesman who worked for him per the reservation police. They might even check with Tim's cousin, the drug addict who shot at his truck. Maybe he came to even a score....then there's Misty's b/f. He was "crazy." Maybe he found out Tim was (...........) with his g/f in the backroom of the bar.

If you wish to throw Tim under the bus then that is what you must do I guess. I don't demean victims who have been brutally murdered no matter their past history just like I wouldn't do if a serial killer murdered prostitutes who weren't lily white either. Imo, none of the ones you have mentioned murdered Tim Romans and Vincent Romero and I see no facts to support that they did.

I don't see the facts that you speak of Fran. What facts are there showing this had anything to do with drug dealers or whomever else you are saying did these crimes.......(anyone but the kid)

I don't think this is some vast conspiracy against this kid. If you wish to believe that then that is your call of course. This will never be an Innocence Project case imo.

Well there again you see differently than I do. I fully realize if I had no weapon nor even time to prepare for the fight of my life, and the other person intending to kill me was the only one there who had the only firearm in hand, there was going to be the winner and it wouldn't be me. I would be as dead as these two men are. What age the perpetrator happened to be on the other end of the firearm would be irrelevant. No one can out run bullets that come out at them going over 300-400 feet per second. Doesn't take a big macho dude to do it either, just a coward who lays in wait and lures the other victim to their death.

"PS......No, I don't think Tim and Vince were super-heros that could outrun bullets. I just don't believe this child is mighty-mouse, which is what he would have to be in order to outwit, outshout, these to grown men with a pea shooter." :waitasec:

Hmm by this statement that is what you expected them to do. How fast do you think that bullet got to them after fired if it only had to travel a few feet when it travels 370 feet per second? And you think these men could outwit that?

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

If you now want to call the boy a 9 yr old murdering coward... have at it. No wonder you can't see anything but what fits your scenario. I prefer to call him an 8+ yr old boy, in a crappy situation at home, with alot of ammo laying around and rifles at the ready. A powder keg waiting to blow.

Roca has ruled that he is no danger to ANYONE by letting him stay with his mom all this time... do you disagree with that also? Let's hear your reasons!

You don't have a clue as to what the doctors will say, if you do, put up a link.
I 'think' he has told them the same thing he first said in the interview/interrogation, and since this doesn't fit with what they want to do they keep on digging. If anything, in my opinion he is likely suffering from 'false guilt' too.

There is no evidence that he had a crappy home life.

That is ridiculous. No one was ever harmed inside that home by firearms except Vinnie Romero and no one outside of the home was either but Tim Romans who brutally died on the front porch. Millions of kids are around firearms. They don't go around mowing two human beings down though.

Judge Roca has not ruled that he is not a danger to anyone. That has yet to be determined and the kid is on house arrest ....not out running around skateboarding, or going to public gatherings.

Oh please.........will you back off of the constant badgering. Can't you converse without getting in such a nasty mood. Sheesh. It is my opinion that he has told the doctors. Are you now saying I am to provide a link for having an entitled opinion?

And yes indeedy, IMO, he most definitely is a coward but that is what murderers are.

Adnoid came in one time already telling the posters to cool it down with the personal nitpicking.

imo

 

[dgfred]

Funny how you say badgering by someone that disagree with your theories of a cowardly murderer... but your post are not baiting, right? It is like anyone that argues with your scenario is wrong and with a bad attitude. Each post by me is a response to something you have posted previously that I don't agree with. No need to fall back on the nitpicking and badgering accusations, just debating... don't be so defensive.

There is plenty of evidence of a crappy home life: stepmom doing the spanking, left home alone with rifles and ammo laying around... this alone should give you pause... but it doesn't seem to. I don't know of 'millions' of kids in that situation with the guns.
For your information, the boy is being a boy and living a semi-normal life now... that includes skateboarding. Roca has at least shown to most of the world that the boy is NOT a threat to his MOM or anyone else, most see it.
If you think you can post the boy is a murdering coward and not get return replys, you are sadly mistaken IMO.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Funny how you say badgering by someone that disagree with your theories of a cowardly murderer... but your post are not baiting, right? It is like anyone that argues with your scenario is wrong and with a bad attitude. Each post by me is a response to something you have posted previously that I don't agree with. No need to fall back on the nitpicking and badgering accusations, just debating... don't be so defensive.

There is plenty of evidence of a crappy home life: stepmom doing the spanking, left home alone with rifles and ammo laying around... this alone should give you pause... but it doesn't seem to. I don't know of 'millions' of kids in that situation with the guns.
For your information, the boy is being a boy and living a semi-normal life now... that includes skateboarding. Roca has at least shown to most of the world that the boy is NOT a threat to his MOM or anyone else, most see it.
If you think you can post the boy is a murdering coward and not get return replys, you are sadly mistaken IMO.

This is the last time I am going to discuss this with you dgfred.

I have posted with all posters throughout the years no matter which side of the isle they happened to be on. I don't flippantly ask them links to their opinions that they surely are entitled to......I don't throw little hissy fits when I reply to a post.

I thoroughly enjoy discussing this case with many posters here that do not share my point of view, such as Fairy and Fran, Salem, SCM and so many more. I find them great debaters.

You are the only one who seems to have your daggers out each time you reply to my post. I do not care one iota that you disagree with me but I do have a problem how nasty and surly you become when it is totally unnecessary.

imo

 

[fran]

FWIW, if you Google *drug dealer murdered* you get over 2,000,000 hits. IMO, I think it's more likely they were killed because of Tim's life style than this child being an 'anomaly.'

IF you Google *murder in love triangle* you get over a 1,000,000 hits. Again I think it's more likely Tim's life style that got these two victims killed, rather than saying this child is an anomaly.

Like I said OBE, let's just agree to disagree. Neither one of us has the ability to prove our case. You can assume the answers and I'll continue to question them.

Meanwhile, the child is guilty because he agreed to a plea deal.


fran

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The rifle is not designed for the shooter to be moving about, loading and reloading, under stress with a grown man moving toward them either... without dropping shells or missing the moving target. The weight of the bullets is no matter, the entire problem is putting each shell into the chamber (while moving) under stress. Your scenarios have this boy calmly firing at a man (friend?), hitting him, calmly reloading, shooting him again and so on. Not to mention he had just killed his dad in your scenario... calm indeed.

I disagree, imo it is. When hunting small game in wooded areas the shooter moves from one spot to the other for various of reasons. Better angle for shot, advancing on the game animal, advancing to get another shot. All sorts of movements made.

We have no idea if he was calm or not but adrenaline pumping is a powerful booster and gives the person even more energy at the time. It will be afterward when it is over that the shakes come or the nervousness.

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

FWIW, if you Google *drug dealer murdered* you get over 2,000,000 hits. IMO, I think it's more likely they were killed because of Tim's life style than this child being an 'anomaly.'

IF you Google *murder in love triangle* you get over a 1,000,000 hits. Again I think it's more likely Tim's life style that got these two victims killed, rather than saying this child is an anomaly.

Like I said OBE, let's just agree to disagree. Neither one of us has the ability to prove our case. You can assume the answers and I'll continue to question them.

Meanwhile, the child is guilty because he agreed to a plea deal.


fran

:crazy: LOL I bet those of us that call ourselves crime buffs on message boards have made those hits go way up. No telling what they would find on my computer if they ever came into check it.

Well thank you for the intelligent debate Fran. I have enjoyed posting with you immensely. We both stand firm in our own beliefs and there is nothing wrong with that.

I know I will be seeing you on another thread.:blowkiss: Maybe next time we will be on the same page.

imo

 

[dgfred]

This is the last time I am going to discuss this with you dgfred.

I have posted with all posters throughout the years no matter which side of the isle they happened to be on. I don't flippantly ask them links to their opinions that they surely are entitled to......I don't throw little hissy fits when I reply to a post.

I thoroughly enjoy discussing this case with many posters here that do not share my point of view, such as Fairy and Fran, Salem, SCM and so many more. I find them great debaters.

You are the only one who seems to have your daggers out each time you reply to my post. I do not care one iota that you disagree with me but I do have a problem how nasty and surly you become when it is totally unnecessary.

imo

I don't care if you respond or not, in fact I prefer that you didn't.
No, you act the same way on other threads when someone doesn't agree with you. You say 'little hissy fits', but I am the one baiting and flaming with 'daggers' out? right :hand: . I don't think I have called you 'nasty' and 'surly' in any previous post... maybe you should re-read some of yours.
You debate, I argue your points, you argue back, I reply again... then I am the one causing the problem as you see it. Agreeing to disagree is not debating... you still stand firm to every single theory you had over six months ago- you will not debate it, you are right and I am wrong and thats how you see it and will continue to do so. I'm sure you do enjoy it when you state something and nobody really post a counterpoint, but I can see why.
You call an eight plus year old boy a cowardly murderer, how many others have you seen that are eight? I supposed he became this way in your opinion out of the clear blue? Not one of your reasons for the boy having to be the sole shooter in this case does not have reasonable doubt... but I am wrong with every reply that gives a reason to doubt. Every piece of evidence (that has been released) could be argued to go to both towards guilt and innocence, yet I am wrong and snarky when I reply. It is not 'daggers' to argue your points, even though you seem to think so. My point of view is just as valid as yours, just you have such a 'problem' because I don't agree with you and will post my opinion, many times with very valid reasons, if possible regardless of your problem.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Yes, and an 8 yo boy is {clumsy}. I can't see him having to load and reload the gun without dropping even one live bullet.

OTOH, it's interesting that the guns in the master bedroom were NOT under the bed as they were supposed to be. No, they were either by the door or the window.

Seems to me someone was in the process of stealing themselves a few guns. Maybe Vince surprised whoever? Maybe someone that was stealing from the home heard Tim/Vince pull up, grabbed the AUTOMATIC gun that's missing from the home and shot Vince as he was ascending the stairs.

Tim heard a commotion inside, not realizing what? but knowing that the boy was SUPPOSED to be there, ASSUMING it was the boy, as he approached he was shot and he was repeatedly shot until he dropped dead right at the doorway. An automatic 22 rifle could definitely drop a guy as he's approaching.

The boy said he saw Tim's truck from about four doors down. He also said he saw {someone} go towards the house. (was that Tim?) As he got two doors away, he saw Tim lying in the door entrance. All at this same time the boy said he saw a car drive away fast, he's calling Tim's name from two doors down as he's approaching. He runs in the house and calls his dad's name. He runs up the stairs and finds his dad. He lays on the floor for what? a minute, next to his dead dad, COULD have seemed like 30 minutes to an 8 yo. Then he walks through the smoke filled house, lets the dog out and leaves to summon a neighbor.

This scenario seems much more plausible than an 8 yo, using a single, bolt action 22, shooting and reloading TEN times, and hitting every single target. Moving target.

The guns lying on the master bedroom floor were forgotten.

What about the former fellow employee? The one who had it in for Tim. Oh, when questioned he denied that, but more than one person told LE to talk to him. He has a white vehicle, a 22, (course, he told LE he's never shot the 22 he has, do you believe that?), he put himself in St. Johns at the time of the murders. It was the previous week Tim told his drug dealer someone wanted to kill him and the former fellow employee told LE he had talked to Tim the previous week on his cell phone. This same guy was also a former Army ranger, which would mean he must be a pretty good shot. Trained to kill.

Just too many unanswered questions.

JMHO
fran

Sorry fran,

I couldn't read past your first line. My own son was and is very athletic and his fine motor skill were excellent. He was never clumsy.

From everything I've read about this kid, he too is athletic and I have NO reason to believe for a second he was clumsy.

 

[Linda7NJ]

The guardian ad lidem (sp?) was quoted as saying that both doctors said the child was incompetent. It's back around the time of the plea deal hearing. Your welcome to look for it.

If you don't want to believe the person the COURT chose to represent the child, well then I just don't know what to say.

Four hours of interview with the boy sure are taking a long time. Maybe he won't say what they want to hear.

How do you know what the child will be told. He was told by two women officers that they ALL would tell the truth in that room and then they proceeded to lie to him and tell him someone saw him with a gun.

Just imagine where we'd be if they hadn't released that film. :waitasec:

We'd actually believe the child REALLY did confess rather than they coerced him into confessing a lie. :bang:

JMHO
fran

They don't need to hear anything.

He did confess.

 

[Linda7NJ]

sniped .I live with my grandson that just turned 9. He plays sports and swims and skateboards and rides a bike, fishes and draws and makes up stories. He also could not even begin to plan the cold blooded murder of his dad like people claim this child did. Eight, or almost nine yo's just don't have it in their mental capacity to work out something like that.

Mine doesn't have it in him either...I would go as far as saying that 99.999% don't. That's what makes this kid an anomaly. That's why it's so difficult for most to even consider. IMO This boy is seriously defective. I would love to see his score's from the MMPI-A as well as his scores from Hare's PCL-VY

Before anyone gets all uppity..Yes, I know they were devised for youth at least 12 years old. They will use them because that's all there is. This kid obviously isn't like any other. I seen it used in children as young as 7.

Psychiatry and psychology are not an exact fixed science. IMO This kid is one for the record books for sure.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Snipe again...sorry.... There's a world of difference between an 8 yo and an 11 yo. If they were the same, they'd just put them all in the same class room.

Look back through history. Ever hear of a one room school house?

The private school my son attends often groups them together. The older ones are expected to help the younger ones and be positive role models. They can and do function extremely well together and can still work up to each individuals potential.

Do you really think a class room full of 8 year olds all learn the same and are at the same level?

 

[Linda7NJ]

The guardian ad lidem (sp?) was quoted as saying that both doctors said the child was incompetent. It's back around the time of the plea deal hearing. Your welcome to look for it.

If you don't want to believe the person the COURT chose to represent the child, well then I just don't know what to say.

Four hours of interview with the boy sure are taking a long time. Maybe he won't say what they want to hear.

How do you know what the child will be told. He was told by two women officers that they ALL would tell the truth in that room and then they proceeded to lie to him and tell him someone saw him with a gun.

Just imagine where we'd be if they hadn't released that film. :waitasec:

We'd actually believe the child REALLY did confess rather than they coerced him into confessing a lie. :bang:

JMHO
fran

Wasn't that the same GAL that didn't even bother to show up? :hand: Yeah..he was "real" concerned.:boohoo: If he had something to say...he should have been there.

I am not buying it, not for a second..... unless you provide a reliable source. If that were true there would have been ZERO incentive for the boy to plead guilty.

 

[Linda7NJ]

FWIW, if you Google *drug dealer murdered* you get over 2,000,000 hits. IMO, I think it's more likely they were killed because of Tim's life style than this child being an 'anomaly.'

IF you Google *murder in love triangle* you get over a 1,000,000 hits. Again I think it's more likely Tim's life style that got these two victims killed, rather than saying this child is an anomaly.

Like I said OBE, let's just agree to disagree. Neither one of us has the ability to prove our case. You can assume the answers and I'll continue to question them.

Meanwhile, the child is guilty because he agreed to a plea deal.


fran

It's not fair to imply he's guilty simply because he agreed to a plea deal. IMO he's guilty because every single shred of evidence points to no one else. It all points to the boy.

I don't really want to go through it all again..it's been posted countless times. You and everyone else here should be familiar with the basic "guilty argument". I know I am quite familiar with your perspective. I never claim you believe he's innocent simply because he's 8. It would be unfair.