Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #2

[Just4TB]

(snip) So it's hard to say. Like I said, I heard that day that tactical members were running into the forest behind the home looking for him. It was obviously a different team that found him on the overpass. (end snip)

What I recall was LE officers were actively searching the forest in the vicinity of the home around the time of the MS home search... (assuming a focus on the murder weapon)

 

[jash]

I must have missed some testimony in regard to black or blue luggage.. can you elaborate as to what you're talking about above? Has someone testified as to the color of LB's luggage she was toting around with her in the days leading up to July 3? Did DM say something different about its color? TY!

There was this from the other day.

Lisa Hepfner‏ @HefCHCHNews now1 minute ago
Abuhav told police #Babcock had a couple large suitcases. Thought maybe one was black. With wheels. #Millard asks, maybe it was dark blue?

Millard now turns his focus to the luggage Babcock had with her when she was sleeping in the escort office.
Witness remembers one suitcase was black.
by Shannon Martin 12:14 PM

Was it big? Did it have wheels, Millard asks about the suitcase.
"Don't remember, don't remember," the witness repeats.
by Shannon Martin 12:15 PM

Link

 

[bcgirl]

There was actually a spring found at the farm at the burn site. But I think it came from the burnt seats in Bosma's truck.

I seem to recall that "grommets" were found, and vaguely something about "springs" in the burned grass fields??

 

[Satchie]

You can't get convicted of M1 by helping to incinerate a dead body, that is a different charge. If someone isn't present during a murder (and it can't be proven otherwise), I don't think they can be convicted of first degree murder in that case.

I think what required the jury to convict MS in the Bosma case was the eye-witness testimony of Sharlene B, that he got into the back of the truck where TB was shortly afterwards killed. To let him off, based on his claim that he then immediately got out of the truck, with no factual evidence whatever to back it up, was just not possible, IMO. Juries can't let someone off just because they say they didn't do it.

In this case, I'm not sure if the evidence for M1 will be as compelling for MS. For eg, it's reasonable LB would go into the house alone with DM.

EDITED: forgot DM didn't testify

 

[Tilly23]

I think what required the jury to convict MS in the Bosma case was the eye-witness testimony of Sharlene B, that he got into the back of the truck where TB was shortly afterwards killed. To let him off, based on his claim that he then immediately got out of the truck, with no factual evidence whatever to back it up, and DM saying it was MS who killed TB, was just not possible, IMO. Juries can't let someone off just because they say they didn't do it.

In this case, I'm not sure if the evidence for M1 will be as compelling for MS. For eg, it's reasonable LB would go into the house alone with DM.

I'm probably not remembering it exactly, but wasn't there something about the death occurring during the course of armed robbery and forcible confinement that made both DM and MS guilty of M1, even if there was uncertainty as to who may have actually pulled the trigger?
:thinking:

MOO

 

[Satchie]

I'm probably not remembering it exactly, but wasn't there something about the death occurring during the course of armed robbery and forcible confinement that made both DM and MS guilty of M1, even if there was uncertainty as to who may have actually pulled the trigger?
:thinking:

MOO

Not exactly, Crown argued

It is not the jury’s job to determine who was holding the gun on May 6, 2013, when the Ancaster father was shot inside his pickup truck, Leitch told them.

Their true task, he said, is to determine whether the evidence shows both Millard and Smich — the two men Bosma had taken for a test drive of his truck that night — had planned that murder together

https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/...sing-arguments-at-tin-bosma-murder-trial.html

 

[palisadesk]

I think what required the jury to convict MS in the Bosma case was the eye-witness testimony of Sharlene B, that he got into the back of the truck where TB was shortly afterwards killed.

While Sharlene was an eyewitness to DM and MS getting in the truck just before TB was killed, she testified she was unable to positively identify either accused; she gave general descriptions, mostly of DM, and said she didn't get a good look at MS, because he was wearing a red hoodie that covered most of his face; she described him as "sketchy." You may be thinking of the agreed-upon statement of fact that MS admitted to being a passenger when IT took them for a test drive the day before. IT *did* positively identify MS from a photo lineup.

As for someone's question about whether you can be convicted of M1 if you aren't physically there -- yes, you certainly can. In such convictions, the absentee killer is part of the planning and may even have arranged the homicide, or paid/convinced someone else to do it for him. Think back to the Peter Demeter case. He had an ironclad alibi for his wife's murder, but he had hired a hit man (who has never been found) and he got M1 . From prison he tried to arrange a few more hits on people who he had a grudge with! He will die in prison, where he has been for 40+ years.

We can't know what specific evidence convinced the jury in the TB case, as they are never allowed to reveal any content of their discussions. They can talk about their feelings, reactions etc. but nothing to do with their deliberations. Also,the different jurors don't need to agree on what the determinative evidence is, only on the verdict, which each may come to via a different path.

 

[huntergerrard]

Instead of being cooperative with the police in a very serious matter she was combative? unbelievable and I think it says a lot about what type of example she was to MS. She sounds like she is a bit off her rocker, that is not a normal reaction to becoming physically aggressive, it helps to understand more about what influences MS had that contributed to his very anti-social behavior even when he was very young he was involved with the police. His father seems to have completely abandoned him and I don't think was ever at the first trial. No other family that was also followed by the photographers were that in a rage to do what she did. The family of the victim was followed by the photographers and they are under the most distress and never reacted like she did. I am sure her neighbors in Oakville are not happy she is living there, I know the neighborhood, it is a tight-knit one with a lot of young children. they probably would be happy if she moved at least that is my opinion, I could be wrong.

This made me think of MS when he was arrested, and not that he was aggressive necessarily, but the police said he was screaming at MM not to say anything and not to tell them anything. This now leads me to believe that MM probably did know more than she let on.

 

[huntergerrard]

The report could suggest there was a second vehicle containing MS. Either he was driving illegally, or another person was driving him. The pings aren't accurate enough to say cells are in the same car, just moving together at some point......until they diverge.

Do we know where CN and MM were on the night of the 3rd, day of the 4th? Has that been established on the timeline to clear them completely?

 

[huntergerrard]

I do not recall any of this about MS mom but enough seem to remember something. I do recall LW being hostile. Either way I can imagine how horrifying it must be to find your child accused of such atrocities. Dont recall any evidence or stories of how horrible a mother or person she was or how the neighbour's want her gone. Or any reports of her tampering with evidence like DM mom. Who knows what kind of mom she was..maybe a great fiercely protective mom trying her best to raise her children on her own? Who ended up through no fault of her own with a son like MS. It happens. I hate when people start blaming or trash talking the mom of the accused with no basis. Mothers are blind sometimes when it comes to their kids its just how it is. Is she perfect probly not. Is she highly emotional through this..looks like it. Should she have kept her head down and kept quiet when cameras are after her sure. But i dont see the need to judge and bash her.

And my comments in no way are to diminish the suffering or conduct if the victim or her family here. They are on oppisite sides of the spectrum of this case, obviously.

Aside from a mother's love, his mom was also quite sick and probably for some time. If she was doing chemotherapy or any other kind of cancer treatments, she was likely tired and weak, and unable to keep up with her son's doings.

 

[winter2017]

Satchie , I don't see that there is any evidence so far that proves MS helped plan the murder of Laura. It was DM who sent a text to CN that he would hurt Laura and get her out of their lives. He knew that she was killed because of the rap song. They may have proof he helped plan her murder but so far there is no proof of it. I wonder why he was charged with M1. The phone records show he traveled with DM and Laura to Maplegate that is what I see. If you know a murder was committed and don't do anything would that be an accessory?

 

[huntergerrard]

I found it when sleuthing the first time around with TB. They are not British. They are Eastern European IIRC

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk

I looked up surname origins and Smich says mainly from Poland. No idea if that's correct or not.

 

[hopingforjustice]

I have a question regarding evidence gathered.
We know that a great deal of evidence was gathered in the months following the TB murder and arrest of both DM and MS. For the sake of of my inquiry ONLY and not insinuating at all that this happened...what if: They collected a blood sample, a hair sample and say a fingerprint that turned out not to be a match to anyone associated with the TB trial. 1) Where does that evidence go? 2) how long is it kept?
Then..
We now have them investigating LB disappearance a few months later and these 2 are possible suspects. 1) Is LE allowed to go back into that evidence that is now in their possession to apply tests to see if it ties in with LB at their own will? or would they require a search warrant of some kind again to be allowed to test it for their new reasons?? Thanks in advance for any insight you can share.

 

[huntergerrard]

It depends. If the location they have obtained a search warrant for may have dangerous occupants, then yes they try to surprise and over power. But in this case, MS was already in custody. IMO.

I can't recall, but if TB was still missing at the time of the search, they would go in fast on the chance he could be being held in the home as a hostage. Same thing with checking the trailer from MB's driveway, they had to check to make sure TB wasn't in there first, then tow it away as evidence.

 

[huntergerrard]

I remember this as well, but the question I’m pondering is: did we assume the spring(s) were from the seat, or was it officially stated as such? At the time, we had no idea that LB and a mattress might come into play, so I wonder if we assumed they must be from the seat.

Good point. I searched but I only found the reference to seat belt buckles found within the burnt debris.

 

[deugirtni]

I saw a case in Ontario where a kid was convicted of m1. He gave some friends info on his neighbor having cash at home
They came killed the neighbor and kid got m1

Sounds like an interesting case, is there a link?

 

[Claroon]

And then again...may have dropped off MS who plugged his phone in to charge and left it at his mom's, and he may have gotten back into DM's car to continue.

LB was probably dead, but could have been drugged and shot at the farm. Or could have been folded up into a suitcase for all we know . SPECULATION

 

[Oreck]

From the sounds of previous and recent testimony, it seems that LB was lugging all kinds of luggage around with her in addition to her dog; then she apparently went home to drop off the dog and money, but it didn't say anything about her having also dropped off luggage (which would have been odd if she said she was planning a trip); so where is all the other luggage, and yes, it would have certainly been helpful if the Crown had asked these witnesses who saw LB with all of her various luggage, if any could be described, and one bag happened to be a red roots bag on wheels.
Although MS wasn't friends with LB, LB *was* friends with DM, and DM was friends with MS, so for MS to end up with one of LB's bags in his house can't really prove anything, since he could have had it in his house for years or months... unless a witness testified that she had that bag with her just before she went to DM's. jmo.

The Prosecution didn't ask that question because they knew from the police interviews that they couldn't get the answer they wanted.

 

[Claroon]

Interesting tidbit from the TB trial in regard to a photo taken of a gun on Feb14,2012 found on DM's hard drive (wasn't this right around the date when LB and CN had their catty texting spat?):

This is from AC's tweets in the TB trial on March 2, 2016:
1247 Jury has been recalled. We're back underway. #HamOnt #TimBosma #Bosma Mar 02, 2016
1248 We're now looking at photos found in the folder "DellsHard/Pictures." Millard's driver's license is one of the photos. #TimBosma #Bosma Mar 02, 2016
1249 Another picture shows a receipt for the rental of a storage unit made out to Dellen MIllard. #TimBosma #Bosma Mar 02, 2016
1250 The travel itinerary for Christina Noudga for a trip was also found as a screen capture on the computer. #TimBosma #Bosma #HamONt Mar 02, 2016
1251 Millard is leaning in and looking closely at photos taken from the computer on the screen in front of him. #HamOnt #TimBosma #Bosma Mar 02, 2016
1252 Court now seeing a closeup photo of a gun found on the computer. The metadata shows it was taken on an iPhone 4 on Feb. 14, 2012. #TimBosma Mar 02, 2016
1253 It was taken near the Millard residence, the report says. #HamOnt #Timbosma #Bosma Mar 02, 2016
1254 Someone's index finger can also be seen in the photo. #HamOnt #TimBosma #Bosma Mar 02, 2016

Yes, he bought it from Isho Valentine's Day saying "Happy Valentine's Day" to Isho. Hmmm. Wonder if it was actually a gift for CN? (SPECULATION)

 

[Claroon]

I think it was during the initial search of her home on May 22, 2013. She was hysterical and had to be restrained. Trying to find link, probably in TB trail testimony of officers conducting the search.

Search was soon after her daughter's wedding May 19, 2013,