GUILTY Bali - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, found dead in suitcase, 12 Aug 2014 #3

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  • #581
Remember this old saying? It was the best come back if someone did call you a name, and then you walked away.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me."
 
  • #582
I think the 'You Caring' page TS's mother put up has been taken down. Perhaps at this point she can see the handwriting on the wall.
 
  • #583
Remember this old saying? It was the best come back if someone did call you a name, and then you walked away.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me."

That's the one I grew up with and it astonishes me how many people just don't get it !
 
  • #584
I think the 'You Caring' page TS's mother put up has been taken down. Perhaps at this point she can see the handwriting on the wall.

YouCaring gives people who have FB the option to comment whether they donate or not. I clicked on the "comment" section a few times and there was a good bit of drama there between those who think Tommy is guilty and deserves to be locked up and the smaller group of those who supported him. It was pretty intense and there were a lot of people who knew him and said some very unflattering things about him and their experience with him
 
  • #585
I found the Indonesian Law of Criminal Procedure ... translated into English, and with a number of grammatical errors ... but readable, nonetheless.

I could not find anything in it about the police/prosecution having to give the defense attorney any discovery items at all.

And I found lots of bits of it interesting and informative, but it does make you go more than a little crosseyed reading it. :crazy:

Article 185
In judging the truth of the testimony of a witness, a judge must seriously take into account:
a. the consistency between the testimony of one witness with that of another
b. the consistency between the testimony of one witness with another means of proof
c. the reasons which could possibly have been used by a witness to testify in a certain way
d. the way of life and the morality of a witness and any and all matters which normally may influence whether or not testimony can be believed

http://defensewiki.ibj.org/images/6/62/Indonesia_Law_of_Criminal_Procedure.pdf
 
  • #586
I found the Indonesian Law of Criminal Procedure ...

I've been reading the criminal code as well. What I found shocking was Article 184, which says (in part):

Legal means of proof shall be:
a. testimony of a witness;
b. testimony of an expert;
c. a document;
d. an indication;
e. testimony of the accused.

(An “indication” can come only from testimony of a witness, testimony of the accused or from a document.)

This seems an incredibly narrow view of evidence!

I’m reading some academic journal articles on this and will post later my findings on what legal scholars say can and cannot be used as evidence in Indonesia.
 
  • #587
Here's a link if anyone is interested in more resources.

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/guide/nations/indonesia.php

When I read the Crim. Pro. rules a couple of weeks ago, I think I mentioned here that just about anything and everything comes in, furthermore there is no equivalent to our 5th amendment so between the rules and being compelled to testify I do not see that this bodes well for either defendant. Especially against HM since she and SWM were present in Bali for a longer period of time and would have been observed by more witnesses from both hotels and I'm sure those witnesses will be called which just may diminish or erode HM's claim of being timid and her claims of affection for SWM. Likewise, I did not see anything in the rules that precludes historical information from the US being used to bolster or dispute evidence that is presented.

I found the Indonesian Law of Criminal Procedure ... translated into English, and with a number of grammatical errors ... but readable, nonetheless.

I could not find anything in it about the police/prosecution having to give the defense attorney any discovery items at all.

And I found lots of bits of it interesting and informative, but it does make you go more than a little crosseyed reading it. :crazy:

Article 185
In judging the truth of the testimony of a witness, a judge must seriously take into account:
a. the consistency between the testimony of one witness with that of another
b. the consistency between the testimony of one witness with another means of proof
c. the reasons which could possibly have been used by a witness to testify in a certain way
d. the way of life and the morality of a witness and any and all matters which normally may influence whether or not testimony can be believed

http://defensewiki.ibj.org/images/6/62/Indonesia_Law_of_Criminal_Procedure.pdf

I could not find anything about the discovery process either. While Article 184 addresses the form of evidence, Article 185 is really what is going to hurt these two the most.
 
  • #588
I've been reading the criminal code as well. What I found shocking was Article 184, which says (in part):

Legal means of proof shall be:
a. testimony of a witness;
b. testimony of an expert;
c. a document;
d. an indication;
e. testimony of the accused.

(An “indication” can come only from testimony of a witness, testimony of the accused or from a document.)

This seems an incredibly narrow view of evidence!

I’m reading some academic journal articles on this and will post later my findings on what legal scholars say can and cannot be used as evidence in Indonesia.

Does mean the hotel's CCTV tapes, which are crucial evidence, cannot be used?
 
  • #589
Does mean the hotel's CCTV tapes, which are crucial evidence, cannot be used?

That's a good question. If not, I wonder if an employee whose job it is to regularly monitor or review the CCTV tapes can testify as a witness and get the content in as an "indication".
 
  • #590
I'm pretty sure that CCTV footage can be used in court. In Schapelle's case there are several references to CCTV footage. I guess it can be considered an 'indication' and also it bears witness.


Corby's mother claims that Corby requested the CCTV footage be shown in court, to which the judge replied, "We will use that if we need to".

The basis of the appeal was a letter submitted from an Australian government official that said CCTV cameras were operating at Sydney airport on the day she left and indicated that they hoped that the footage (although none has been shown to exist) would show drugs being put into Corby's bag. Corby's lawyers also said that the trial court did not have evidence of actual ownership of the drugs and thus erred in convicting her. The judges agreed to wait ten days to allow for footage to be presented before sending the record to the Supreme Court.

http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Schapelle_Corby
 
  • #591
I'm pretty sure that CCTV footage can be used in court. In Schapelle's case there are several references to CCTV footage.
http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Schapelle_Corby


I really couldn't decide only because that footage didn't ever surface did it? So I was uncertain of how it ended up in the case. Here in the States you could consult any number of sources for recent case law but I don't really have the time to do so for Indonesia. It was all I could do to manage slugging through the most recent Crim Pro rules at lunch. I see there was an attempt to amend the rules in 2013 but I had to stop, I never did find a codification of them, did it happen? I kept getting bogged down in articles with an emphasis on cohabitation, adultery and black magic. :gaah:
 
  • #592
I really couldn't decide only because that footage didn't ever surface did it? So I was uncertain of how it ended up in the case. Here in the States you could consult any number of sources for recent case law but I don't really have the time to do so for Indonesia. It was all I could do to manage slugging through the most recent Crim Pro rules at lunch. I see there was an attempt to amend the rules in 2013 but I had to stop, I never did find a codification of them, did it happen? I kept getting bogged down in articles with an emphasis on cohabitation, adultery and black magic. :gaah:

Come to think of it, we've only heard about the footage from LE leaks to the media...and we know that the info LE leaks to media is often unreliable.
 
  • #593
Based on my limited research, Indonesia does not have a liberal, “kitchen sink” policy on evidence which is considered relevant by the panel of judges who render a verdict. (I’ll return to this idea again at the end.)

Quite the contrary, the only form of evidence I have so far found specifically mentioned that Indonesia has admitted which would be precluded in the U.S. (or any other “Western” nation) is forced confessions! (See page 224 of my cite below.) While thoroughly reprehensible, and clearly stemming from past authoritarian regimes, this hardly seems an issue in the case we are following.

Here are some excerpts from a law journal article which discusses the current criminal code in Indonesia and some of the proposals for reform. It’s a long piece, so even with all these excerpts, I’m only importing a tiny percentage of the entire article. Also, I have added a few new paragraph breaks and have omitted the footnotes.

In 1981, Indonesia enacted the current criminal procedure code, Kitab Undang-Undang Hukum Acara Pidana ("KUHAP"). The KUHAP continues to reflect the Dutch legacy of criminal procedure although it adds some adversarial features.

Indonesia's adoption of the traditional civil law approach has meant that few rights of the defendant are clearly articulated in the KUHAP. The KUHAP fails to make clear a right against self-incrimination or a standard of proof that protects the presumption of innocence.

The evidentiary rules contained in the current KUHAP also strongly reflect its Dutch roots. The KUHAP recognizes only four types of evidence - documents, witness statements, defense statements, and expert reports.

My note: The criminal code, as per my previous post, divides evidence into five categories, explicitly differentiating between witnesses, experts, and the defendants (this author interestingly only joins the first two together, not all three categories of those who may testify), and then adds “documents” and “indications”.

Circumstantial evidence may be considered, but only if it comes from witness and defendant testimony or documents. Physical evidence can be considered by the judge in judging other evidence, but is not deemed evidence itself.

Computer records, audio and video tapes, and other forms of evidence falling outside this statutory framework are not admissible.

Evidence obtained abroad is also not readily admissible.

While the judge must find the defendant's guilt to a moral certainty, the KUHAP tracks the old Dutch tradition of permitting a judge to find the defendant guilty only if there are at least two different categories of evidence present.

As a result of the lack of opportunity to engage in advocacy in establishing the facts, the prosecutors and defense attorneys are typically passive in court; their role in court is confined almost exclusively to legal argument rather than fact development. Instead, the verdict is determined by the judge's confirmation of the contents of the dossier through judicial questioning of certain witnesses.

Overall, this formalistic trial system leads to a quantitative (counting of types of evidence), rather than a qualitative, determination of the weight of the evidence by the judge. It hampers the ability of prosecutors to present important types of evidence, such as electronic, video or audiotapes, or physical evidence. It can result in acquittals where there may be strong proof of one type, but none in one of the other categories.

As the world's fourth largest nation by population with few land borders, Indonesia traditionally was not concerned with transnational crime and the current KUHAP lacked specific provisions for evidence gathered abroad. … The draft KUHAP addresses this fact by providing that evidence received from abroad "shall be considered valid evidence, if it is legally obtained based on the law of such other country" so long as "consideration [of] the evidence does not breach the Indonesian constitutions, laws or cooperation agreement.

The common law system has developed a series of sometimes arcane evidentiary rules to ensure the opportunity for adversarial confrontation of opposing witnesses and to prevent otherwise potentially probative evidence from being presented to the jury. By contrast, the civil law tradition of judicial fact-finding has no need for such limitations; the investigating magistrate or the trial judge is a judicial officer and does not need any intermediary to determine what evidence could be considered.

A footnote follows this last portion, providing a citation to a scholarly article on civil law proceedings (Indonesia is a civil law country, like most of Europe) that explains that civil law countries exercise more permissive rules in the creation of a dossier of evidence because they do not use lay adjudicators (i.e. a jury), who are not trained, as judges are, in what is and is not appropriate to consider in rendering a verdict.

My own example of what I believe he is getting at: the Amanda Knox case was tried in a civil law country and even though Italy’s supreme court ruled that certain of her statements made on 5-6 November 2007 could not be used against her, they were still part of the trial dossier.

What’s interesting to me about this article, and it was written by an American lawyer who at least then was in Indonesia and received assistance from those who are working on the legal reforms, is that he is specific about problems in the system from both the prosecution’s viewpoint (limits on what can be lodged as evidence) as well as the defendant’s (lack of protection against self-incrimination). He never gives examples of expansive rules of evidence against defendants (e.g. ludicrously wide exceptions to the hearsay rule), which makes me wonder where an idea that Indonesia lets in all kinds of evidence comes from.

See “More Adversarial, but not Completely Adversarial”: Reformasi of the Indonesian Criminal Procedure Code by Robert R. Strang, Fordham International Law Journal, v32, iss1, December 2008.

http://law.fordham.edu/fordham-international-law-journal/11787.htm

While this was published 2008, I’m also reading another law journal article from 2014 which makes clear that the proposed changes that Strang discusses have not yet been codified into law. That is, the 1981 procedure appears to be still relevant to the discussion of our murder case. I’ll report on this other article later, as it has other interesting things to say on the evidentiary limits in Indonesia and the problems they create for prosecutors.
 
  • #594
Here are some more observations on Indonesian criminal procedure from another law journal article, which characterizes Indonesia as having “narrow and rigid evidence rules.”

This article is concerned with anti-corruption prosecutions, but there is discussion of how the criminal code affects the efficacy of such efforts, and some of that discussion is general enough to be of use to us. As before, I've stripped out the footnotes and all bolding is by me.

… laws adopted during the Suharto era explicitly separated the investigatory and prosecutorial functions between the National Police and the AGO, so that prosecutors cannot oversee investigations by the police, ...

Once an investigation is complete, both the investigative file and responsibility for custody of the suspect passes to the prosecution, and police generally have no further role in the process. The lack of close coordination between the police and the AGO, and the turf jealousies that arise from the compartmentalization of their functions, impede effective preparation and presentation of cases across the entire spectrum of law enforcement, …

In fact, Indonesia’s narrow and rigid evidence rules affirmatively impede effective anti-corruption investigation and deter prosecutors from building a case on evidence derived through modern techniques. Under the Indonesian procedure code, only five types of evidence are considered legally valid means of proof at trial. They are: (1) testimony of a witness; (2) testimony of an expert; (3) a “document,” which is somewhat narrowly defined to consist of public records, written testimony, or other documents which have a connection to the contents of another means of proof; (4) an “indication,” that is, testimony or documentary evidence of an act that tends to establish that an offense has occurred or the identity of the perpetrator; and (5) testimony of the defendant. To secure a conviction, there must be testimony from at least two witnesses or evidence in at least two of the five categories of proof. Evidence that does not fit within the parameters of the five statutorily defined types of legally cognizable proof is nugatory, regardless of its relevance or reliability. The rules do not expressly contemplate the admission of undercover audio or video tapes, for example, or the admission of electronic evidence, both of which may be crucial in corruption prosecutions.

… a drafting committee of legal experts is now working on draft revisions to the Criminal Procedure Code which would, among other things, expand the scope of admissible evidence, and define admissibility by reference to relevance rather than the narrow categories. See generally Strang, … [That’s the article I previously mentioned.]

Because Indonesia follows the continental civil code system, in which all legal authority flows from statutes, the opinion of one court as to the proper interpretation of an evidence rule has no utility as legal precedent and therefore is of limited predictive value in assessing the position of other courts on the same question. Thus, even with rulings as to admissibility in one trial, prosecutors cannot be secure that they will be able to use the same type of evidence in a subsequent trial before a different set of judges.

Without express authorization to engage in a particular investigative technique, and a basis to admit the resulting evidence through the narrow avenues of the Indonesian procedure code, law enforcement is understandably reluctant to use it, even if it would be the most effective way to build a case. Instead, Indonesian investigators continue to rely on suspect interrogation as their primary evidence-gathering technique, …

… we found that investigators and prosecutors in Indonesia have little experience designing comprehensive investigatory strategies or implementing numerous and complimentary evidence-gathering techniques in compiling a case, …

Perpetrators alerted to an investigation proceeding by means of interrogation usually have ample time to coordinate their stories… And without financial documents, recorded statements, or other evidence with which to confront suspects, who are often powerful individuals and well represented by counsel, prying loose admissions is an uphill struggle.

In the Timtas Tipikor case, although the recorded telephone call with the judge was tantamount to a confession, prosecutors were unsure until the middle of trial whether the court would accept the evidence of the call.

Because of this lack of timely access to financial records, most investigators and prosecutors have little experience in tracing and analyzing financial data, and are often forced to assemble cases without recourse to the most basic evidence of the crime.

An Indonesian drafting committee is also working on a comprehensive revision to the Indonesian Criminal Procedure Code. Drafts of the proposed new legislation include provisions which move the country toward a more adversarial-style system, which would be consistent with some of the needed procedural tools described above. In addition, the drafting of a new substantive and comprehensive criminal code by a committee of experts which had been in progress for years has been completed and submitted to the legislature. All four of these draft laws involving substantial reforms in the country’s criminal law system will soon be the subject of attention by national legislators.

From “Retooling Law Enforcement to Investigate and Prosecute Entrenched Corruption: Key Criminal Procedure Reforms for Indonesia and Other Nations” by Benjamin B. Wagner and Leslie Gielow Jacobs, Journal of International Law, Volume 30 Issue 1, 2008. (I wrongly wrote in my last post that I'd be reporting on a 2014 article. This is 2008, like the previous one, so I'll look for something more current.)

At: http://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1138&context=jil
 
  • #595
It’s been eye-opening to read about criminal procedure in Indonesia!

For example, consider the security camera tapes, which seem vital to this case. I think gracehatter’s argument that a hotel employee could testify to the CCTV footage as a witness is a good one. I hope it wins the day in court.

But here are some concerns:

1. The criminal code, while promulgated in 1981, reads like something 50 years older than that! All the concentration on physical documents (and the weird stuff about “letters”) is troubling. Even in 1981 they made no reference to telephones, at least that I can remember. Strang seems to think videotapes are outright inadmissible, but he doesn’t address whether it can “can be considered by the judge in judging other evidence, but is not deemed evidence itself” as he lists physical evidence.

2. If the security tapes are at all unclear (did Tommy have something under his shirt or not?) then it would be the testimony and not the tapes (nor enhancement of the tapes) which the court may finding binding (and just possibly insufficient).

3. If the police know that such tapes aren’t generally allowed, it may play a small role (or no role) in the dossier, and the dossier is what the trial revolves around.

4. Lack of coordination between police and prosecutors reduces the benefit of what prosecutors know will be effective at trial and therefore finding its way into the dossier. (But the prosecutors’ right to send the dossier back for enhancement mitigates this problem, I would assume.)

5. As explicitly mentioned in the Wagner and Jacobs article in another context, even if CCTV evidence has been admitted before that doesn’t mean it will be this time. The panel of judges decides because precedent plays no part in Indonesian law. This must be teeth-rattling to prosecutors.

6. If Wagner and Jacobs are right and that suspect interviews are the core of many dossiers, then police might consider those interviews and other evidence clearly falling under the ambit of the criminal code to be sufficient. (“Without express authorization to engage in a particular investigative technique, and a basis to admit the resulting evidence through the narrow avenues of the Indonesian procedure code, law enforcement is understandably reluctant to use it, even if it would be the most effective way to build a case. Instead, Indonesian investigators continue to rely on suspect interrogation as their primary evidence-gathering technique, …”).

I still believe they will both be found guilty, and probably of premeditated murder. But it does seem there could be a lot of trips and falls along the way.
 
  • #596
Wow...that's a lot of research everyone has been doing. :eek:

Well if there is some issue with allowing the video tapes in, then releasing information of what's on them to the media and to the suspect's lawyers is pretty effective in getting a confession. Even if it's not necessarily the truth.

But wouldn't the Indonesian lawyers know that this information is not admissible as evidence and therefore tell their clients not to be concerned about it? And what would be the point of anyone putting up an expensive CCTV system if the images and video it captures cannot be used as evidence in a court of law?

MOO
 
  • #597
I'm pretty sure that CCTV footage can be used in court. In Schapelle's case there are several references to CCTV footage. I guess it can be considered an 'indication' and also it bears witness.

I don’t think it could be considered under the “witness” category. My reading of that part of the criminal code is that a witness is a person. And I’ve always thought that one element of a “witness” is the ability to be cross-examined, which you can’t do with a tape.

But I agree with you and others that it seems like there should be ways for the CCTV footage to come in. The “indication” route you mention seems like a possibility.

The thing which troubles me most is the fact that just because CCTV may have been previously considered at a trial doesn’t mean that it will be in this case. The discretion of the judges at any given trial seems to make important parts of the process arbitrary. But I’m guessing most (if not all) of us here discussing this case come from common law countries, so civil law rules would naturally seem foreign to us.

My tentative view is that it could “come in” but not strictly as evidence, but instead as something the judges use to evaluate other evidence, as the Strang article says physical elements are treated in Indonesian trials. I don’t quite understand the distinction being made, because if the judges consider it in coming to a verdict, failing to call it “evidence” seems purely semantic.

Oh, if only an Indonesian lawyer would join our thread!
 
  • #598
Based on my limited research, Indonesia does not have a liberal, “kitchen sink” policy on evidence which is considered relevant by the panel of judges who render a verdict. (I’ll return to this idea again at the end.)

We shall see, the practical application of law and academic theory often find themselves quite at odds.
 
  • #599
[SBM] Well if there is some issue with allowing the video tapes in, then releasing information of what's on them to the media and to the suspect's lawyers is pretty effective in getting a confession. Even if it's not necessarily the truth.

You make a good point. I think I begin to understand why the Bali police have publicly made so many different claims.

But wouldn't the Indonesian lawyers know that this information is not admissible as evidence and therefore tell their clients not to be concerned about it? And what would be the point of anyone putting up an expensive CCTV system if the images and video it captures cannot be used as evidence in a court of law?

I don't have a great answer to this. But a few possibilities do come to mind:

1. As I’ve been arguing today in earlier posts, there may merely be uncertainty as to squeezing this type of evidence in. So if the suspects fail to offer an explanation, it could (but not necessarily) be a very big problem.

2. Maybe it comes in, but not as evidence. (I've noted in a recent post how this is the case with other material most of us would consider "evidence" but isn't "evidence" under the Indonesian code.)

3. There really is a lot of good evidence against them even without the tapes. I think their lawyers know this. Taking the suitcase to the taxi – that alone is powerful evidence. Since the gang story long ago died, they probably felt they simply had to offer the best lies they could come up with.

And what would be the point of anyone putting up an expensive CCTV system if the images and video it captures cannot be used as evidence in a court of law?

If the security footage assists police in finding a thief, say, and he has the relevant stolen goods on him, the stolen items alone may be enough to convict, even without the tapes.

LE do use methods which are useful and legal in an investigatory process but are not valid for use in court. For example, many police departments use polygraphs. If a suspect passes, he’s free to go. If he fails, they continue to investigate him and (hopefully) find evidence for use at trial, even though they can’t bring in the failed polygraph results in court.
 
  • #600
In this Jakarta Post article, they call the CCTV footage "evidence"....

One of the strongest pieces of evidence was CCTV footage, which showed no other people entering room 317, where the victim was staying, other than the victim and the two suspects.

Also in this article...

The police had also found broken glass and pieces of iron in both the victim’s room and Schaefer’s room. “From the crime scene, we found broken glass and pieces of iron from the same item in both the victim’s and Schaefer’s rooms,” he said.

So I'm guessing that he did bring the fruit bowl intact and they tried to pick up as many of the pieces as possible and return the item to TS's room.

This article also clears up the sequence and discrepancies with the luggage trolley....

The hotel CCTV footage, Sadiarta stated, showed Mack had fetched a luggage trolley from the lobby and brought it herself to her mother’s room.

Schaefer and Mack then took the suitcase (allegedly with the victim’s body in it) by trolley from the victim’s room to Schaefer’s room. Minutes later, the CCTV footage showed them bringing the suitcase from Schaefer’s room to the lobby, when they then placed it in the taxi trunk.


So Heather got a luggage trolley from the lobby and brought it to room 317 where they both put the suitcase on the trolley and then took the trolley up to TS's room (where they likely put the other two suitcases that they were taking for themselves on the trolley).

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/...sses-show-us-couple-s-involvement-police.html

MOO
 
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