GUILTY Bali - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, found dead in suitcase, 12 Aug 2014 #4

[SouthAussie]

Hopefully, William Wiese is staying on top of it and will make them stick to the ruling. :crossfingers:

Surely there can be some legal ramifications if they just give the money out willy-nilly to Indonesian lawyers with no accountable proof of its use.

 

[Orange Tabby]

There's one other factor that makes this case somewhat different from Soenardi's other cases.

He didn't get involved until after the prosecution had filed charges. I think that's part of what worked in Ponder's favor: the actual charges against him and his girlfriend were very small compared to their crimes. I think if Soenardi had been involved earlier, the charges would have been much lighter. Now it's all on the judges.

I mentioned this earlier when I said that I think one possibility is that Mr. Ary has a way of making evidence disappear. It's the evidence that drives the charge. That's why I noted before that a big problem problem for him is that the evidence has literally already been hauled into court. What I'm watching for now is how the judges treat the text messages. They seem to have an "out" there, as it appears such evidence isn't always accepted and that is the best evidence against Heather as long as Tommy sticks to his story.

It should be noted, too, that Ponder seems like a guy who did his best in advance of being caught to avoid incrimination and Sandiford was, on the other hand, rather clueless. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Ponder specifically and regularly had his mules wrap the drugs like a birthday gift for his daughter before delivery to him, so that he would always have the ready-made excuse that he was entrapped. That prophylactic is far better than Heather and Tommy's "a gang did it and we barely managed to escape" story, which we all know is ludicrous.

 

[SwampMama]

That fruit bowl has always been a problem for them, I couldn't agree more! The "I got angry and hit her with a gift of a stolen souvenir" story is clearly rubbish. But the story's out there, waiting for someone to believe it.

I think they will only be in session on Wednesdays. But who knows?

That fruit bowl and the idea that he took it from his room to give her as a gift is ridiculous. So his idea of a gift is bringing Sheila a fruit bowl which he stole from a room that SHE was paying for and HER credit card would be charged for the missing fruit bowl when it was discovered by staff? (Of course that is what would happen if they had not killed her.) How freaking stupid, lowlife and idiotic.

If that is his alibi it is a pretty poor one. In fact it shows his contempt for her, how he was using her, had no respect for her, expected her to pay his way in Bali, etc. Yet he was so mortally offended that she was not thrilled about the news of the baby. What the hell did he expect her reaction to him to be???"

Oh Tommy, I am so excited. Here you are, an unemployed, dropout, wannabee rapper who has been arrested for an incident that involved stealing from me and you have gotten my violent,unemployed, dropout daughter (who has major anger issues) pregnant and you want me to finance all of it. Oh my gosh, this is such wonderful news, it is everything every mother/grandmother dreams of and looks forward to !!! I can't wait to spend all of the money I have on supporting ya'll financially, and spending the next 20 years raising this baby for ya'll because you two clearly have no business doing it. I am so happy my daughter will have a partner to help her beat the hell out of me next time, because my darling daughter has had to beat me for so long all on her own.

This case is so over the top with the BS, entitlement to funds, and delusional excuses/alibis coming from TS and HM. I swear my head is about to fall off my head from shaking it so dang hard at this whole case.


These 2 repulsive, remorseless killers have no business ever being free again.

 

[Orange Tabby]

I really wonder how the billing will be handled. I think Judge Cohen opened his mouth way too quickly, but there's no going back now. If Soenardi refuses to submit an itemized interim bill (because perhaps that's not the way things work in Indonesia), what are Cohen and Mackoff going to do? They dug themselves this hole and they really have no choice but to keep giving HM what she wants.

Why is there no going back?

Cohen and Mackoff certainly do have a choice: they can stick to their guns and insist upon the receipts and billing details. After all, such an accounting was specifically discussed in the same hearing that contained the ruling that funds would be released for an Indonesian defense lawyer. They are under no obligation to accept a claim from Ary Soenardi that such an accounting isn’t standard practice in his country, or any other namby-pamby excuse he may proffer.

Whether that happens, well … that’s another story.

The fact that $100,000 still hasn’t been released seems at least promising to me. If Mr. Ary was going to try something along these lines, surely he’d have done it by now. He wants the rest of the money. The fact that he hasn’t got it could mean he can’t snow Cohen and Mackoff. Cohen seems happy to let things slide until the 27th, which suggests he’s in no hurry to do anything at all.

 

[Orange Tabby]

Hopefully, William Wiese is staying on top of it and will make them stick to the ruling. :crossfingers:

Surely there can be some legal ramifications if they just give the money out willy-nilly to Indonesian lawyers with no accountable proof of its use.

I agree. Particularly since Judge Cohen said there had to be an accounting. WW (or his lawyer) can hammer that point in every future hearing. I certainly hope they do.

 

[Orange Tabby]

That fruit bowl and the idea that he took it from his room to give her as a gift is ridiculous. So his idea of a gift is bringing Sheila a fruit bowl which he stole from a room that SHE was paying for and HER credit card would be charged for the missing fruit bowl when it was discovered by staff? (Of course that is what would happen if they had not killed her.) How freaking stupid, lowlife and idiotic.

If that is his alibi it is a pretty poor one. In fact it shows his contempt for her, how he was using her, had no respect for her, expected her to pay his way in Bali, etc. Yet he was so mortally offended that she was not thrilled about the news of the baby. What the hell did he expect her reaction to him to be???"

Oh Tommy, I am so excited. Here you are, an unemployed, dropout, wannabee rapper who has been arrested for an incident that involved stealing from me and you have gotten my violent,unemployed, dropout daughter (who has major anger issues) pregnant and you want me to finance all of it. Oh my gosh, this is such wonderful news, it is everything every mother/grandmother dreams of and looks forward to !!! I can't wait to spend all of the money I have on supporting ya'll financially, and spending the next 20 years raising this baby for ya'll because you two clearly have no business doing it. I am so happy my daughter will have a partner to help her beat the hell out of me next time, because my darling daughter has had to beat me for so long all on her own.

This case is so over the top with the BS, entitlement to funds, and delusional excuses/alibis coming from TS and HM. I swear my head is about to fall off my head from shaking it so dang hard at this whole case.

These 2 repulsive, remorseless killers have no business ever being free again.

I agree that Tommy and Heather have told utterly ridiculous stories. I noted on the day that the indictments were presented in court that I was very surprised that the prosecution accepted any part of their fairy tales. Yet the prosecution spoke of Heather being in the bathroom when the murder was committed. They spoke of Tommy striking Sheila because she called him a name.

Why does the prosecution accept any of this? And if the prosecution accepts some of it, are we not in danger the judges will as well? These things puzzle and disturb me.

 

[Kamille]

I think HM is paying TS's legal bills - she just can't be open about it.

The judge/trustee want to see an itemized billing. I wonder what the reaction would have been if he had demanded an itemized billing from Elkin and Flava? They're the ones who came up with the $150K figure.

SouthAussie, I agree, the body language isn't all lovey-dovey. That said, they're young and they barely knew each other before all this took place. It would have been surprising if the relationship had endured, and all couples do have their differences. I thought from the vines that HM's real interest was VonMar. TS has given up hiding from the cameras, but I notice she learned very quickly how to play to the media.

However...there was the second week of the trial and TS's crying. I can't help but wonder if his mother had a talk with him and told him things he really didn't want to hear. HM has out-witted him - she has $$. He'd probably struggle to find the $ to fly back to the US right now if he were set free. His only hope is to try to keep in her good graces.

TS does not have any "legal fees". Neither for that matter does HM really. Attorneys in Indonesia make about $1500US per month according to the info from SouthAussie. Minimum wage in Bali is about $130US per month.

Now let's consider what defense attorneys do. They read over the indictment. They present their case. They go to court about 20 hours while the trial is going on. Any idea what they do in court? I haven't seen AS there yet.

Do they hire expert witnesses? Do they cross examine prosecution witnesses? Do they spend months on pretrial motions, discovery, interviews, depositions, jury selection and then more months in court trying a case? Do they do anything that US defense attorneys do other than guide their client to the best possible outcome by suggesting what they can say or do to minimize the charges against them when they come up in front of the judging panel.

The mere suggestion of $300,000US to defend one (or both) of them from AS is ludicrous and is exactly what it appears to be IMO. Even the $150,000 is ridiculous. The $50,000 that he has already received is almost 3yrs pay for the average attorney. And the average attorney apparently makes 10 times more than the average minimum wage earner as it is.

Not sure who started flogging around that $150,000 "retainer fee" number but it may have been a figure given to HM by Elkin and Favia as a standard defense attorney retainer fee in the US. So HM in turn may have offered this amount to AS so as not to offend him. And then he saw a golden goose and told her he would need that amount for each of them.

I have no doubt he has the corrupt connections to get one or both of them off on a light sentence. And it has nothing to do with his abilities as a lawyer. The previous lawyers that TS and HM were using had already established the best case scenario defense for both of them. And it doesn't appear as though any of them have been paid by anyone other than the court system. The only difference with AS after HM brought him in is that he has gotten HM and TS to pull it back a bit and deny a "confession". Play around with the wording a little so that the money he's getting from HM and moving around will pay for the "confusion" on the part of the prosecutor and judges who will be deciding their fate.

From my perspective it is what it is. And I'm apalled that a U.S. judge has allowed even what has been done so far without some simple checking on what is standard procedure with regards to attorneys and "retainers" in Indonesia.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

I agree that Tommy and Heather have told utterly ridiculous stories. I noted on the day that the indictments were presented in court that I was very surprised that the prosecution accepted any part of their fairy tales. Yet the prosecution spoke of Heather being in the bathroom when the murder was committed. They spoke of Tommy striking Sheila because she called him a name.

Why does the prosecution accept any of this? And if the prosecution accepts some of it, are we not in danger the judges will as well? These things puzzle and disturb me.

Maybe they accepted 50 grand's worth of fairy tale...

MOO

 

[Kamille]

I agree. Particularly since Judge Cohen said there had to be an accounting. WW (or his lawyer) can hammer that point in every future hearing. I certainly hope they do.

There should have been an accounting right from the beginning before one penny was released. Or at least an independent investigation of the procedures in Indonesia if they didn't want to take WW's word for it. I understand giving her a stipend for food and such but even there does she really need 4 times more than the average worker while living in a prison? She's got a cell phone in prison for cripes sake!

MOO

 

[Kamille]

According to this link, HM is getting more per month than the average prosecutor with 15 years seniority ($400 per month) although the info is from 2010.


https://books.google.ca/books?id=0j...ge for criminal attorney in indonesia&f=false

 

[ajaylee]

I agree that Tommy and Heather have told utterly ridiculous stories. I noted on the day that the indictments were presented in court that I was very surprised that the prosecution accepted any part of their fairy tales. Yet the prosecution spoke of Heather being in the bathroom when the murder was committed. They spoke of Tommy striking Sheila because she called him a name.

Why does the prosecution accept any of this? And if the prosecution accepts some of it, are we not in danger the judges will as well? These things puzzle and disturb me.

Yes, I've wondered if this is the way the justice system works or indicative that the 'fix' is in. Do Indonesian prosecutors just present the defendants' side as told to the police? If AS couldn't get to the prosecution in time to get the charges reduced, the prosecution can present a ridiculous case that will get deservedly treated lightly.

I'm still concerned that if the texts are disallowed, the hotel footage will also be tossed out.

 

[SouthAussie]

According to this link, HM is getting more per month than the average prosecutor with 15 years seniority ($400 per month) although the info is from 2010.


https://books.google.ca/books?id=0j...ge for criminal attorney in indonesia&f=false

Ooooohhh ... it annoys the heck out of me too, Kamille! :gaah:

What the heck were they thinking, back in Chicago?? Did they do no research whatsoever about the little she would need for her living expenses?! Google is your friend, Judge Cohen! And the embassy can confirm the info, as required.

They stuffed up in a big, unimpressive way imo.

 

[Orange Tabby]

According to this link, HM is getting more per month than the average prosecutor with 15 years seniority ($400 per month) although the info is from 2010.

Send Eric Dorkin this info!

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I think the main reason that Tommy sticks with the “I did it, Heather was in another room” story is that it is his best — although very weak — chance of avoiding a guilty finding on premeditation. It’s very hard to argue that two people both simultaneously got so angry that they spontaneously beat someone to death without intending it and without realizing the harm they were doing.

He can never say that it was Heather’s idea because his going along with her scheme is then clear premeditation.

He’s trapped. Those are his fingerprints (so we are told) on the murder weapon.

Nonetheless, I agree with you that protecting Heather and the unborn baby plays a role in his thinking. I think it may make it easier for him to bear the role of sole attacker (because he imagines this is noble, as you say) and may also partially assuage his guilt (if he feels any).

You'll get no scorn from me.

I agree, it's actually quite clever when you think about it. Grrrrr. 'Sheila verbally abused TS, he became enraged and killed her while HM hid in the bathroom'. It gets HM off and TS a light sentence. But all the evidence is against them, the texts about hiring a hit on Sheila, TS coming to Sheila's room with a hidden 'weapon' and the exceptional violence HM inflicted on her mother over the previous years.

HM and TS deserve a very lengthy prison term and HM's baby deserves a good home. I'll keep reading this thread in the hope this will eventuate.

Sheila had her faults, nobody is perfect, she spoiled her child rotten, amazingly there a plenty who do and they still have a relationship, be it not a very healthy one. HM ruled the roost in that household and Sheila imo, tried too late to undo the damage. There are families who can only communicate by screaming and yelling at each other. HM chose to use physical and verbal violence to silence and control her mother. She's a callous, manipulative young woman who really makes me sick, I'd like to see the smug look wiped off her face when she has to spend 20 or more years in prison. My :twocents:

 

[FigTree]

Just reading over some of the articles - this has been reported that this evidence has been presented in court:


Heather Mack and Tommy Schaefer indicted for premeditated murder over Bali body in suitcase
http://www.smh.com.au/world/heather...er-bali-body-in-suitcase-20150114-12obb6.html

The court heard that at 3:40 am on August 12, Ms Von Wiese Mack asked the manager on duty if he had seen her daughter.
The manager explained that Ms Von Wiese Mack was in fact paying for two rooms and her daughter may be in the second room with Schaefer.
Ms Von Wiese Mack angrily confronted her daughter in the lobby and said: "So Tommy Schaefer the thief is here?" prompting a bitter fight.

The court heard Heather Mack returned to her room with her mother but continued to communicate with Schaeffer via text message.
The couple allegedly schemed to kill Ms Von Wiese Mack, with one plot involving suffocating her with a pillow and another making the death appear like a suicide by the beach.

At 8.30am Schaefer rang the bell of the room. The couple hugged and started talking, waking Ms Von Wiese Mack.
The court heard a fight ensued with Ms Von Wiese Mack screaming at Schaefer that he was "just a ******".

Although initially laughing off the insult, Schaefer then allegedly grabbed the handle of the fruit bowl and swung it at his girlfriend's mother.
The court heard Heather Mack ran to the bathroom but Schaefer continued raining blows on Ms Von Wiese Mack until she stopped moving.

Schaefer called out for Heather Mack to come out from the bathroom. The couple allegedly hugged and Schaefer said: "Sheila is dead".
The court heard they stuffed Ms Von Wiese Mack's body into the suitcase. Heather Mack sat on the suitcase so her boyfriend could close it.
The couple cleaned the rooms and then tried to check out of the hotel.
They allegedly took the suitcase and left it the taxi boot, while they headed back inside and ran away out the back of the St Regis.

My bold...
(1) Just a couple of points of interest here - it maybe the reporting - but text messages were happening between HM & TS after the fight in the lobby regarding how they would kill SvWM.

(2) Even in the scenario that HM had nothing to do with the murder (this I do not believe) - HM was in the room when the violence towards SvWM happened.

Prosecutor Eddy Arta Wijaya said Heather Mack had asked Schaefer while still in the United States to find someone willing to kill her mother for $US50,000 ($61,528).

I think there are 2 sets of text messages found on the phones of HM & TS - 1 before the couple arrived in Bali - and one set just before Sheila was murdered.

It flys in the face of the "Im completely innocent of all charges" from HM.

 

[Weezer Fan]

Yes, I think I mentioned before that there is a reason behind these two accused murderers sticking together - a promise of $50k makes for a pretty strong glue.
Or even some money for him to eat properly and have some protection or better conditions in the men's section of the facility.

It has always seemed macabre and twisted to me as to why HM keeps on good terms with TS -
I think because if she didn't, he may implicate her to the full extent - which would be closer to the truth - but it may also cut off any money she has access to.
Its easy to see that there is room for tactics from HM - she's the one with the money. Without the trial in a conviction stage HM can manoeuvre TS to keep to the friendship and story up regarding both their innocence. That 'innocence' also serves to keep the trust fund legally open and accessible because without a conviction the money is still available to 'buy' friends and influence people. She seems to also be starting to use the baby.
While HM has access to the money - the truth will evade this trial, and possibly reduce her sentence in Bali - but what of TS? - HM will save her own skin while she has money, a baby, and a baby who is an heir to the trusts money.
If the money is a factor, and TS gets the DP and HM doesn't, do you think he will be willing to say the truth? because by then it will be too late.
Her 'stay strong' message to him across the courtyard through the bars of their incarceration, seemed technically convoluted - as she downs another hamburger and fries, pouting and pining to the media like a victim.

Either the money has to stop - or someone has to pay a bigger sum than what HM has to offer to over-ride her influence. (JTA: Cant see either happening but it was a thought, and I dont support any bribery)
Though both of them have to answer to the US courts regardless of what happens here in Bali if they both went without conviction in Bali.

As for HM doing a runner -HM does not have that sort of money and she would have to waddle away seeing that she is pregnant.

Which is exactly why she will not allow this baby to be put up for adoption. She would rather keep the innocent in prison with her to insure she has control over the trust money. The baby gets the money, even if HM gets a very light sentence, (and then can live out her life in Bali, using the trust fund money for herself).

 

[IslandLover]

I mentioned this earlier when I said that I think one possibility is that Mr. Ary has a way of making evidence disappear. It's the evidence that drives the charge. That's why I noted before that a big problem problem for him is that the evidence has literally already been hauled into court. What I'm watching for now is how the judges treat the text messages. They seem to have an "out" there, as it appears such evidence isn't always accepted and that is the best evidence against Heather as long as Tommy sticks to his story.

It should be noted, too, that Ponder seems like a guy who did his best in advance of being caught to avoid incrimination and Sandiford was, on the other hand, rather clueless. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Ponder specifically and regularly had his mules wrap the drugs like a birthday gift for his daughter before delivery to him, so that he would always have the ready-made excuse that he was entrapped. That prophylactic is far better than Heather and Tommy's "a gang did it and we barely managed to escape" story, which we all know is ludicrous.

You might be interested in a recent article on Ponder/Sandiford case.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rug-mule-Death-Row-told-listed-execution.html

It mentions the bribes that Ponder allegedly paid and the fact that Sandiford needs GBP 50,000 for legal fees to appeal her death sentence. It would seem lawyers in Indonesia are not that cheap after all :thinking:

 

[FigTree]

You might be interested in a recent article on Ponder/Sandiford case.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rug-mule-Death-Row-told-listed-execution.html

It mentions the bribes that Ponder allegedly paid and the fact that Sandiford needs GBP 50,000 for legal fees to appeal her death sentence. It would seem lawyers in Indonesia are not that cheap after all :thinking:

To put it in context - 50,000 British Pounds =

Indonesia $: 50,000.00 GBP = 968,413,282.20 IDR
American $: 50,000.00 GBP = 76,276.83 USD
Australian $: 50,000.00 GBP = 98,161.49 AUD

I have been watching the recent revelations unfold regarding this case.
What has been allowed to happen in Sandifords case highlights the extent of the corruption - and not just what money can buy you in Kerobokan prison ... (the suspension of Britain’s top diplomat in Bali, vice-consul Alys Harahap, 31, over her jail romance with drug lord Julian Ponder).

On another note: It also made me think about the amount of contact the HM & TS can have :thinking: and her recent medical issues.



Read more:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Row-told-listed-execution.html#ixzz3RMtdeYcV
Jailed drug lord known as Bali's 'Mr Big' admits diplomat was seeing him when she should have been saving Death Row Briton from firing squad

 

[Kamille]

You might be interested in a recent article on Ponder/Sandiford case.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rug-mule-Death-Row-told-listed-execution.html

It mentions the bribes that Ponder allegedly paid and the fact that Sandiford needs GBP 50,000 for legal fees to appeal her death sentence. It would seem lawyers in Indonesia are not that cheap after all :thinking:

Classic example that the person who had the money for the bribes and was likely the ringleader got off with a slap on the wrist while one of his "mules" goes down as the mastermind because he refused to pay a bribe for her because she worked with police to take him down.

Her original trial cost her nothing. Now she's being bribed with an appeal that she'll never win. There is no new evidence. It's just a money grab on the part of crooked attorneys there trying to get someone to sympathize with her and pay it.

It's all so corrupt. The new president claims he wants to fix this and then appoints a police chief known for corruption. There's a big scuffle over this right now as well.

This was one of Scapelle Corby's lawyers and is on the defense team for Neil Bantleman, the Canadian teacher accused of sexual assault. Don't think either of these people had the funds to pay the big bribes. And in the case of the Canadian, there is a complete media ban on his case now. Too much attention being directed at corruption in the Indonesian legal system lately it seems.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/24/world/asia/24hotman.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

I hope the judges and prosecutor in the HM and TS trial realize there are eyes on them as well.

MOO

 

[Hiandmighty]

I wonder what will prevent HM from getting pregnant asap by TS once the baby is born? I assume they will be able to find a dark corner or something?