GUILTY Bali - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, found dead in suitcase, 12 Aug 2014 #5

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  • #1,841
They would be in the threads 1, 2, 3, or 4

Find the forum AWAITING TRIAL

Type in the search bar in that forum: Bali - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, found dead in suitcase, 12 Aug 2014 #

They should come up.
There is 4 of them

When they come up, click on one to open the thread

Then Search in Advanced mode in the thread you opened - and search for threads under your username - this gives you the option to search your own posts in that thread and use keywords

Hope that's right and hope that works.

Here are the thread links for ya :):

Bali - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, found dead in suitcase, 12 Aug 2014 #1
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Wiese+Mack,+62,+found+dead+suitcase,+Aug+2014

Bali - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, found dead in suitcase, 12 Aug 2014 #2
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Wiese+Mack,+62,+found+dead+suitcase,+Aug+2014

Bali - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, found dead in suitcase, 12 Aug 2014 #3
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Wiese+Mack,+62,+found+dead+suitcase,+Aug+2014

Bali - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, found dead in suitcase, 12 Aug 2014 #4
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Wiese+Mack,+62,+found+dead+suitcase,+Aug+2014

This could be it! I'll try tomorrow.

Thanks a million. Thanks 1.56 million.
 
  • #1,842
This could be it! I'll try tomorrow.

Thanks a million. Thanks 1.56 million.

:giggle:

that would be 1.563,836 million if we are going back to December 30th 2014 - don't worry about the 43 cents ;)
 
  • #1,843
:giggle:

that would be 1.563,836 million if we are going back to December 30th 2014 - don't worry about the 43 cents ;)


LSHIFMCIAFRAH!

[See post #1790 in this thread.]
 
  • #1,844
It doesn't go nearly far enough back -- that's the problem. I want to find stuff I posted years ago, in threads now closed.

I can see all 431 of your posts, right back to your very first one by clicking on your profile. You should be able to as well.
 
  • #1,845
Mack, however, wants Stella to remain in Bali while she serves out her prison sentence.

“She loves her child and she's gonna maintain a relationship with her child,” Mack’s attorney Vanessa Favia said.

According to Stella’s court-appointed guardian ad litem, Peter Schmiedel, plans are being made for another couple in Bali to raise the girl. However, nothing has been finalized.

"We're just trying to get something done before the 17th of March," Schmiedel said. "I have my fingers crossed."

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...r-custody-grandmother-declined-414125113.html

So it appears that with the appointment of the GAL, Ms Favia became HM's lawyer instead of Stella's and Elkin was out? No conflict there. :notgood:

And it looks like the GAL is helping to facilitate the transfer to this other couple?

MOO
 
  • #1,846
Well I'm starting to wonder just what Judge Cohen thinks IS in the jurisdiction of his court. He has the official word from Indonesia as to what HM was convicted for and has had it for a very long time. Accessory to murder. He has a statement from her well paid Indonesian attorney at the time who claims that she was actually convicted of being an accessory after the fact but because that is not an option in Indonesian law the official translation is accessory to murder. I am sure that he's not seriously going to take the word of a corrupt defense attorney. And neither should he be listening to the prosecution or the judges in the trial who are also corrupt. The conviction is accessory to murder...period. So...that should be good enough to rule on the slayer statute. But no. We also have the fact that the FBI has an ongoing investigation open with regards to what actually happened, not what the bribes in Indonesia claim happened in their corrupt court. One person in the US has plead guilty to his part in it. Still not enough apparently. Why?

We have WW who was the official trustee of the estate as per SVM's wishes until HM turns 25. He was removed from this position and I'm not sure if that was by choice. Since that time, hundreds of thousands of dollars have been sent to Indonesia for corrupt undertakings, with the warning from WW that this is what it was for. HM has been able to bribe her way out of a murder conviction, bribe prison officials for days out, buy and drink the local beer, smoke cigarettes, own and use at least two or three contraband cell phones, possibly purchase drugs and many other things that she does not need to be funded to do while she is "raising" her child in a cell full of other, mostly young women, who are partaking in the same activities.

Ms Favia is supposed to be Stella's attorney. Why is she involved in slayer statute hearings if Judge Cohen refuses to rule on guardian issues for Stella? Right now the trust fund still technically belongs to HM and WW should be the one making the decisions as to how it is to be distributed. Is that happening? Doesn't seem like it. So WW is stripped of his legal authority over the fund but HM is not?

And why are they continually discussing Stella and her needs if her guardianship is out of his jurisdiction. Why was a GAL appointed for her in Chancery Court? Why are they allowing the conflict of having a lawyer hired by her mother, a convicted felon, representing her? It is apparent that Ms Favia has never considered what is actually in Stella's best interests or she would have been returned to the US years ago and been put up for adoption. Ms Favia seems to only concern herself with what HM thinks is in Stella's best interests so that both of them can continue to milk the trust fund. Why were so many things done regarding Stella and the one thing that has not been done in two years is to make the one ruling that he is within his jurisdiction to do. Why is it taking so long?

And KW? She is going to get nowhere with her guardianship request two years too late. She should have launched this the day Stella was born or at least at the first sign of trouble between her son and HM. He started saying that he wanted his daughter out of there and in the US about a year ago. Where was KW then? It's too bad, because she might have had a chance back then when the GAL was apparently agreeing with TS.

MOO

[emoji122][emoji122][emoji122] I could not have said it better, Kamille. I do not understand how in the world a woman who MURDERED her mother, (or helped to MURDER,) gets to have any say in how her daughter should be raised. Or have access to her daughter when she's released from jail. Isn't it obvious to everyone involved, if Stella has any money left, her life will be in danger too? The guardians life may be in danger as well. HM killed once for this [emoji383]. As did TS.

And why has it taken so long to apply the Slayer statute? HM has been allowed so much power, when she should have had none once she was convicted in Bali.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #1,847
http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...r-custody-grandmother-declined-414125113.html

""The judge didn't say that she can't go for guardianship. He just said she can't go for guardianship in this courtroom," said attorney Michael Goldberg, who is representing Walker.
Goldberg filed a new motion for guardianship on behalf of Walker in another Cook County court Friday afternoon."

"According to Stella’s court-appointed guardian ad litem, Peter Schmiedel, plans are being made for another couple in Bali to raise the girl. However, nothing has been finalized.
"We're just trying to get something done before the 17th of March," Schmiedel said. "I have my fingers crossed.""

So KW is a day late and a dollar short. If KW's lawyer is so whippy, why wouldn't he have known to file this in probate court in the first place?

And all so looks like the GAL is preparing to do whatever Heather wants.

SMH.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #1,848
Sorry but I'm not American so I'm not up on inheritance taxes but I think we discussed it at one point and I think others indicated that's why it was set up as a trust. To avoid such taxes. I'm sure Orange Tabby or one of the others would have a better handle on that.
I asked DH about personal trust and he said income earned from the trust is taxable but principal is not. I was reading some of the back post and had no idea HM was floating the idea her mother may have killer her father. After all this time this case still boils my blood. Back to just reading along and hand sitting Jmo

ciao
 
  • #1,849
I can see all 431 of your posts, right back to your very first one by clicking on your profile. You should be able to as well.


Thank you. I might have been on my phone when I first tried this. I sometimes forget that the board software is hobbled for phones.
 
  • #1,850
Well I'm starting to wonder just what Judge Cohen thinks IS in the jurisdiction of his court. He has the official word from Indonesia as to what HM was convicted for and has had it for a very long time. Accessory to murder. He has a statement from her well paid Indonesian attorney at the time who claims that she was actually convicted of being an accessory after the fact but because that is not an option in Indonesian law the official translation is accessory to murder. I am sure that he's not seriously going to take the word of a corrupt defense attorney. And neither should he be listening to the prosecution or the judges in the trial who are also corrupt. The conviction is accessory to murder...period. So...that should be good enough to rule on the slayer statute. But no. We also have the fact that the FBI has an ongoing investigation open with regards to what actually happened, not what the bribes in Indonesia claim happened in their corrupt court. One person in the US has plead guilty to his part in it. Still not enough apparently. Why?


SBM

Kamille, you are well known on this forum as a passionate and tireless defender of Sheila. In that role you have often found yourself an outspoken critic of Judge Cohen. So I hope you are seated when reading this.

I think you have unwittingly defended the Cook County judge.

There are a lot of moving parts in the Illinois Slayer Statute. One element: if a person is found guilty in a criminal proceeding of first or second degree murder -- game over. No benefits from a will, a trust or the like.

As you point out, Heather was not found guilty of either of these triggering crimes. As you point out, she was found guilty of something different: accessory to murder.

So while I was confused why the Indonesian verdict was insufficient for a Slayer Statute ruling, you have immediately honed into the reason: it is not a charge articulated by the statute.

Rather than dragging the dude across burning hot coals, I think we all should be celebrating Judge Cohen.

Why? Because after the Bali verdict he could have ruled: since the criminal conviction falls short of the Slayer Statute requirements, unless and until Heath Mack is found culpable in a civil proceeding, she is entitled to continuing support from Sheila's trust.

He didn't make that ruling. He saw that despite the conviction falling short of automatically triggering the Slayer Statute, there was ample evidence that she would be found guilty in a civil proceeding. Hence, Heather was denied funds for appellate attorney fees, for example. And he said no more funds would be disbursed until the Slayer Statute matter was settled.

Why it has taken so long, I have no idea, but we can guess that many of the the delays have been engineered by Heather's attorneys. (Attorneys I hope who never see another penny of Sheila's trust, although better them than Horrible, Horrendous Heather.) And perhaps in part due to the fact that the cogs of American justice blithely accept delay as just "one of those things."

Neil "I admire the speed of turtles" Cohen is not one who we would hold up to young judges now taking robes as an example of excellence. But neither is he a villain.

And what's up with your reference to the FBI investigation?

An investigation of me into X cannot be used against me as proof of X. That is the law in the US.

Like most Americans, I have shamefully woeful knowledge of Canada. But I'd be mighty surprised indeed if the mere existence of an investigation in your country could be used as proof in a court of law of guilt. Aren't you guys a Magna Carta country?

All the evidence we get from the crappy press reports is that there will be a civil Slayer Statute hearing. I assume the FBI evidence will be introduced. Does anyone here have any doubt that Heather will be completely slammed in such a proceeding? The fact that Cohen doesn't want any disbursements from the trust until the hearing concludes screams that he knows what the finding will be.

Let the law work in its terrible, clunky, plodding, inexorable way.

Let Heather accumulate huge legal fees for which she will be solely responsible and which Sheila's trust will never pay.

Let Stella live for months without Trust support so that when the Trust is finally found to be hers her caregivers can't suddenly claim it's impossible to raise her without money for Heather's cigarettes and cheeseburgers.

Let Heather be deported to America in 2025 to be tried in US Federal Court for conspiracy to commit murder and be sentenced to 20-plus years in a federal pen without cell phones or amoral snack-fetching assistants from Australia.

Let it happen. And be glad.
 
  • #1,851
What we learned today:

1. Heather's Fifth Amendment caper is related to the on-going Slayer Statute proceedings.

2. Judge Cohen has not yet made a ruling against Heather concerning the Slayer Statute.

3. He won't consider any custody issues and Kia Walker and her attorney say they will pursue guardianship in another court.

4. Favia remains a player of some kind, saying Heather wants Stella to remain in Bali with a family living there.

Here's what is interesting to me: it is coming onto two years since Heather was found guilty and sentenced to ten years. After nearly 22 months, it seems that there is something about the Indonesian conviction that won't allow Judge Cohen to make a Slayer Statute finding against Heather.

I wonder what the problem is. Did Heather's lawyers convince Cohen that the guilty verdict in Indonesia fell short of triggering a Slayer ruling? (Mr. Ary claimed it amounted to accomplice after the fact.) Or was the foreign verdict deemed a problem for other reasons, for example it was open to multiple interpretations? Or something else?

In any event, the only reason to conduct civil proceedings in Cohen's court is that, for whatever reason, the Indonesian verdict is insufficient.

The good news is that I have no doubt, absolutely no doubt whatsoever, that Heather will lose in the civil Slayer hearing.

It could take a long time. As long as Cohen rules no disbursements can be made until after a ruling, then that is good news too.

And we can hope that after Heather loses the Slayer ruling that William Wiese proceeds to sue Heather for the money already disbursed on her behalf. He is unlikely to collect, but it would mean that if Heather was ever found to have money, Wiese could go after it.

I'm disappointed that I was not able to attend today's court session.

My blue bold...
Just need a clarification....
What are the current disbursements to Heather? - or are the disbursements actually to/for Stella?

I also remember that plans were in the making for Stella to be placed with the Australian Guardians only months after Stella's birth.
It may well have been sorted way back then that Stella would be placed in their care.
It would make the sudden application for Stella to be with her grandmother much too late at this stage if that was the case.


10th June 2015
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ten-year-sentence-sadistic-murder-mother.html
DailyMail said:
Heather Mack, 20, is understood to in negotiations to place three-month-old baby Stella, who was born in a prison hospital last March, into the care of an Australian family living in Bali.
Daily Mail Online has been told that the little girl, who is currently living with her convicted mother in a cell in the notorious Kerobokan Prison with eight other women, could be handed over to the family in four months’ time.

It is believed the family has agreed to care for the child until Mack is released from prison, which at the most will be in 10 years - although she could win early release for good behaviour and time already served following her arrest last August.
A source close to Mack said 'nothing was set in stone' but confirmed that negotiations were on-going.
 
  • #1,852
FigTree, I'm trying to put together a picture of the trust as it stands and am finding it difficult going. But there are some interesting nuggets of info out there.
 
  • #1,853
SBM

Kamille, you are well known on this forum as a passionate and tireless defender of Sheila. In that role you have often found yourself an outspoken critic of Judge Cohen. So I hope you are seated when reading this.

I think you have unwittingly defended the Cook County judge.

There are a lot of moving parts in the Illinois Slayer Statute. One element: if a person is found guilty in a criminal proceeding of first or second degree murder -- game over. No benefits from a will, a trust or the like.

As you point out, Heather was not found guilty of either of these triggering crimes. As you point out, she was found guilty of something different: accessory to murder.

Respectfully snipped...

Hey Orange Tabby. I haven't been that hard on him have I? :thinking: ;)

I was under the impression that the slayer statute also applied to "accessory to murder" in so that if convicted of this offense, that person would also be deemed to have been as responsible for the death as the person who may have been charged with the actual murder. And that is the official charge she has been convicted of, regardless of what AS says in an email. Perhaps Indonesia has one thing over us in the sense that is there really such a thing as accessory after the fact? If you're at a murder scene and helping to stuff a body into a suitcase to hide it instead of calling the cops, consider yourself guilty of helping someone to commit a murder. ;) But even without that, I suppose conspiracy also fits in with the definition of her being responsible for the death. And there has been evidence of that existing for over three years. So I assumed that in the American civil court trial for the slayer statute, that information would be permitted to be used, especially in this instance where there was so much bribery and corruption in her criminal trial. And that's what my reference to the FBI is about. With regards to HM, they have evidence of a conspiracy to commit murder and even an attempted murder (and now an actual confession!). I know that this is their own investigation into criminal charges that they may pursue in the future but I'm assuming their evidence can be also used in her slayer statute civil trial? I'm not suggesting that just because she is being investigated in a criminal case, that automatically makes her guilty in a civil one.

I do not understand why the civil trial for the slayer statute has taken so long to materialize. The conviction in Indonesia was almost 2 years ago. The FBI has been investigating for well over 2 years and, as I stated, has plenty of evidence that is useful in the civil trial. So why are we still waiting? RB has already been convicted with it and is just waiting on his sentencing. Is it because they cannot use the FBI information that has been gathered in her civil trial?

The slayer statute also states that while they are waiting on the "determination of the death, the trustee of the fund does not have to disperse funds to the heir. Which is what WW did. He cut her off. Until HM took him to chancery court to get the money and he was removed from his duties. How did that happen? I guess that's another area that confuses me. Why did Sheila even bother appointing the person she trusted most in the world to handle the trust if her heir could just have him removed from his duties in court? I'm really foggy on this trust stuff but it sounds like he was acting within his duty to the trust to cut off funds until the determination was made.

I guess I'm just unnerved that WW was removed as trustee, when it was Sheila's wish that he remain the trustee until HM was 30 years old. And that nothing he said in that courtroom, through an attorney that he was forced to hire, to Judge Cohen or the appointed trustee, about the large sum of money that was being asked for by Ari Soenardi, was heeded. In fact I thought I remembered Judge Cohen getting rather heated about that? Refusing to even consider the evidence that WW's attorney was trying to present regarding corruption in the legal system in Indonesia. Perhaps I'm mistaken?

Anyway, look where we are today. If WW had been allowed to stick to his plan or at least had been allowed to prevent that large payout to AS, HM would likely have been convicted of 1st degree murder. She would not have had any financial assistance in the prison and would have had to rely on the kindness of the groups who help out the foreign prisoners bringing healthy food and basic clothing and toiletry supplies. WW may have been able to figure out how to reimburse these groups for their assistance in bringing basic supplies to her. She would still have kept Stella with her as a route to the inheritance, and because she was always going to fair better while she had Stella with her, but she would have had to do without a lot of the things that no prisoner should have anyway, and being in prison might just have been an actual punishment for her. Perhaps that's what her uncle thought she needed. To be punished for what she did. Which she definitely has not been. And Stella would have been in pretty much the exact same position that she is in today. So nothing that has been done was to benefit Stella in any way. And HM continues to receive disbursements for her "upkeep". Even if it is in the name of her daughter. The only thing Judge Cohen has denied was the second large payment to AS. I guess he learned his lesson after allowing the first one. Why do you think that HM is not receiving any disbursements from the fund? How do you think she is keeping these lawyers working for her? Are they not also being paid by the fund?

IMO, Judge Cohen has allowed HM to control everything since the day she filed that initial complaint after her uncle tried to make her take responsibility for her actions on her own, without the help of her mother's money. And make no mistake, regardless of what Heather says, that was her mother's money. She could just as easily have left the entire amount to charity and in hindsight I bet a lot of people who loved her wish that she had. I think we know that the majority of the delays are caused by HM and her army of attorneys who are just lining up at the SVM estate trough. And now she's pleading the fifth to try to prevent the civil trial from happening? Why? Maybe because she is still receiving funds from the trust?

And let's just say that Judge Cohen rules that HM is entitled to inherit the trust because she was not convicted of first or second degree murder in Indonesia? And of course there have been no criminal proceedings regarding her in the US. What happens then? WW still does not get to be the trustee until HM is 30 and Sheila's wishes for her brother to handle the trust after her death just go unheeded?

I know...lots of questions. Wish we had some answers. :(

MOO
 
  • #1,854
I agree with you Kamille and I also agree with Orange Tabby, both your insights and posts have been wonderful on all these matters ...

I have a suspicion there is more to come.
From the outset, it seems that they are waiting and bidding their time over something - and for the most part I think that's a good thing as they have enough (and possibly more) evidence to get Mack back to the US to be charged with the 'before the fact' aspect of the death of Sheila VWM.
There was a time after the sentence was handed down that an appeal could have been made from SvWM's side if there were more facts that weren't brought to the table at the time of the hearing to prove that HM's involvement was not just 'after the fact'. We know that there was evidence gathered from the FBI, that at the time of the HM & TS's trial there was so much more going on and the true scope of the crime never came close to the actuality of the charges. Something could have been done then, but as WW knew (and was known) the Judicial system of Indonesia may have not have considered the other evidence and it was possible that the appeal would have done nothing but line the pockets of the lawyers.

Maybe there is something else that the Court is waiting to bring to light about the case -



Old new report - but just looking back - almost 2 years....

April 21, 2015
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-bali-heather-mack-sentenced-20150421-story.html#page=1

Mack's access to the trust has been a hard-fought battle in Cook County, where Judge Neil Cohen allowed up to $150,000 to be used for her criminal defense.
Another estimated $300,000 of the trust has gone to lawyer fees, officials said, and the legal fight is certain to continue in light of Mack's criminal conviction.
Under Illinois' slayer statute, a person who intentionally and unjustifiably causes the death of another person cannot receive property as a result of the death of that person.


Attorneys involved in the trust case said they are awaiting clarification of the actual charge Mack was convicted of under Indonesian criminal code.
One legal expert not involved in the case said Illinois courts have not considered the issue of whether a conviction for being an accomplice or accessory to a murder would
trigger the statute.


"If the conviction is for anything less than first- or second-degree murder there is going to be a major legal battle here," said Northbrook attorney Mary Vanek, who has argued
for the enforcement of the slayer statute in Cook County probate court. "But I think the trustee can make a good argument that Heather is not entitled to inherit if she was in any
way involved in the murder, because the intent of the law is to prohibit wrongdoers from reaping the benefit of their wrongdoing."
 
  • #1,855
Thanks FigTree

So almost two years ago it was predicted to be a long process. Which if they had gone with WW's wishes and blocked HM from any funds until it was settled, would actually have been a good thing. She would have actually been punished for the past two years and would continue to be, even more so, after Stella was removed from the prison. And would there have been a guardian family ready to take her if she was not going to be able to be funding this venture? Would Kia still want her?

I just wish we knew how much is being sent over there.

MOO
 
  • #1,856
I thought it was a monthly allowance of around $2,000.00 - let me see if I can find it - I just thought someone might know.
:)
 
  • #1,857
Just wanted to post this also -

Posted by Orange Tabby - post 793

Orange Tabby said:
Text of the Illinois Slayer Statute

Here is the full text of the Illinois slayer law, from the Illinois Compiled Statutes. I have added a few extra paragraph breaks to improve readability.

(755 ILCS 5/2-6) (from Ch. 110 1/2, par. 2-6)

(755 ILCS 5/2-6) (from Ch. 110 1/2, par. 2-6)

Sec. 2-6. Person causing death.

A person who intentionally and unjustifiably causes the death of another shall not receive any property, benefit, or other interest by reason of the death, whether as heir, legatee, beneficiary, joint tenant, survivor, appointee or in any other capacity and whether the property, benefit, or other interest passes pursuant to any form of title registration, testamentary or nontestamentary instrument, intestacy, renunciation, or any other circumstance. The property, benefit, or other interest shall pass as if the person causing the death died before the decedent, provided that with respect to joint tenancy property the interest possessed prior to the death by the person causing the death shall not be diminished by the application of this Section.

A determination under this Section may be made by any court of competent jurisdiction separate and apart from any criminal proceeding arising from the death, provided that no such civil proceeding shall proceed to trial nor shall the person be required to submit to discovery in such civil proceeding until such time as any criminal proceeding has been finally determined by the trial court or, in the event no criminal charge has been brought, prior to one year after the date of death.

A person convicted of first degree murder or second degree murder of the decedent is conclusively presumed to have caused the death intentionally and unjustifiably for purposes of this Section.

The holder of any property subject to the provisions of this Section shall not be liable for distributing or releasing said property to the person causing the death if such distribution or release occurs prior to a determination made under this Section.

If the holder of any property subject to the provisions of this Section knows or has reason to know that a potential beneficiary caused the death of a person within the scope of this Section, the holder shall fully cooperate with law enforcement authorities and judicial officers in connection with any investigation of such death.

(Source: P.A. 86-749.)

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs...=075500050K2-6
 
  • #1,858
I thought it was a monthly allowance of around $2,000.00 - let me see if I can find it - I just thought someone might know.
:)


Going by memory only, I recall one distribution before the verdict of $2,000 to cover four months of expenses. I am not fully confident in my memory
 
  • #1,859
You guys are better at interpreting all of this :)
clarity please :)

RSBM...
Orange Tabby said:
There are a lot of moving parts in the Illinois Slayer Statute. One element: if a person is found guilty in a criminal proceeding of first or second degree murder -- game over. No benefits from a will, a trust or the like.

simplified wiki definition:
wiki said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(United_States_law)
First-degree murder: any intentional murder that is willful and premeditated with malice aforethought. Felony murder is typically first-degree.[12]
Second-degree murder: any intentional murder with malice aforethought, but is not premeditated or planned.[13]

The charge for the case for HM was - Premeditated Murder
and with the ruling being that she was an accessory to 'premeditated murder' (the charge) - does that make a difference?
To me, the act of the murder was 'after the fact' of premeditation - and being an accessory encompasses the act and the aftermath.
And seeing that there is no distinction between 'before and after' in Indonesian Law, is it not then possible that this would come under 1st degree murder?

Chicago Tribute said:
Wiese's attorney, Leonard LeRose, said Thursday that he anticipates receiving a certified copy of Mack's conviction Friday, but it will need to be translated into English.
LeRose told Cohen it is his understanding that Mack was convicted under Indonesian law of deliberately assisting with a premeditated murder.
 
  • #1,860
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