Bedwetting

[Linda7NJ]

Do we know what PR meant by tucked? Has she detailed that anywhere?
Because they lost the nerve to remove her from the house?
Maybe the reality of carrying a dead 6 yo outside was more scary than the fantasy.

Lost their nerve? Please ....they just finished murdering a little girl in the most brutal way imaginable IN HER OWN HOME and stuck around to write three pages . But couldn't walk out with a dead child, in the dark of night? Get real!


Why do you think it would be easier to stuff her body out of site? Where would you put her?

Stuff her in the dryer, behind anything, in a suitcase etc, Have you never seen a small child play hide & seek? They can fit almost anywhere

Again...ransom kidnappers are not pedophiles or child molesters. But we know this REALLY was not ever about kidnapping for money.

 

[UKGuy]

Its quite amusing to find that some think it must be a fake RN because a kidnapper would remove the body from the house, yet they also think the R's would leave the body in the house and then write a fake RN.

Why should the Kidnappers be held to a higher standard?
I'm sure this is a fact that I've missed along the way but Jayelles can you please pinpoint the source of this test for me?

Zman,

It may be the assumed privacy of the mind that allows you to generate quasi-contradictions such as above, or you may be a troll.

The kidnappers are held to a higher standard because they are assumed to be an external agency whose intention is to remove JonBenet.

The ransom note is NOT fake its real, its just so happens that JonBenet was not kidnapped!

She was killed and her corpse was discovered in the wine-cellar, so what is the rationale for any kidnapper to issue ransom demands?

If a Ramsey killed JonBenet then it may not be the same Ramsey who decided to write the ransom note, and it may not have been the same Ramsey who placed her body in the wine-cellar, these Ramsey's may all have different motives, whereas the kidnappers have one motive.

So the Ramsey's are held to a different standard because we all publicly assume responsible parents dont murder, abduct then issue ransom demands to retrieve their own child, who is currently located within their household.

In the assumed privacy of the mind, you may find all this amusing, the rest of the forum may consider it public common sense!

 

[Zman]

Zman,

She was killed and her corpse was discovered in the wine-cellar, so what is the rationale for any kidnapper to issue ransom demands?

Because like my question UKGuy the RN was rhetorical.

 

[itsreenw]

Zmnan, were you serious about the imaginary kidnappers losing the nerve to take JBR out of the house or are you just playing devil's advocate?? First of all, REAL kidnappers would've likely had a note prepared- got in, took the kid, left the note on the bed in place of the kid and got the hell out.

Kidnappings are for the most part, about BIG bucks. Access Graphics had just hit the BILLION dollar mark and the 'kidnapper(s)" wrote a 3 page ransom note for a lousy $118,000??? Come on now.

And if the "kidnapper(s)" wanted to sexually assault the poor baby, they were steps away from doors and windows all over that house. Why do it there when they could've been out the door in minutes-free to sexually abused JBR on their own turf where there was less chance of being caught. They could've still made that 'phone call' to get the ransom money the next day or killed JBR and left her in some location where it would've taken a while to find her.

And honestly now, do you think he/they just said, "oh, I'll just go snatch the kid and write the ransom note on my way out- I'm sure PR will have a pad of paper there for me to practice on because I'm not quite sure what I want to say yet"

Who would even WRITE a ransom note?? He was so comfortable sticking around the house, he could've just used one of the R's computers and typed one!!

Give me a break!!

 

[Zman]

Zmnan, were you serious about the imaginary kidnappers losing the nerve to take JBR out of the house or are you just playing devil's advocate?? First of all, REAL kidnappers would've likely had a note prepared- got in, took the kid, left the note on the bed in place of the kid and got the hell out.!!

Serious. What is a REAL kidnapper itsreenw?
Maybe this was a first time crime by a very violent individual.

Kidnappings are for the most part, about BIG bucks. Access Graphics had just hit the BILLION dollar mark and the 'kidnapper(s)" wrote a 3 page ransom note for a lousy $118,000??? Come on now. .!!

I will say again. Don't you think the R's would know that too? This was not about kidnapping.
You know if you guys just want to sit around and post PDI notes back and forth I'll be gald to stop posting here. I'm trying to offer the alternative. Just in case someone other than a R really did this.

And if the "kidnapper(s)" wanted to sexually assault the poor baby, they were steps away from doors and windows all over that house. Why do it there when they could've been out the door in minutes-free to sexually abused JBR on their own turf where there was less chance of being caught. They could've still made that 'phone call' to get the ransom money the next day or killed JBR and left her in some location where it would've taken a while to find her. .!!

I don't think they were there to sexually abuse JBR. I'm pretty sure this was done by female/s. The way her body was left is either an attempt to frame JR with incest or just a brutal humiliation of the body.

And honestly now, do you think he/they just said, "oh, I'll just go snatch the kid and write the ransom note on my way out- I'm sure PR will have a pad of paper there for me to practice on because I'm not quite sure what I want to say yet"

Who would even WRITE a ransom note?? He was so comfortable sticking around the house, he could've just used one of the R's computers and typed one!!

Give me a break!!

I think someone very close to the R's are responsible, so they are very comfortable in the house and yes they know where the pad a pens are, not to mention everything else.

 

[narlacat]

>>Just in case someone other than a R really did this.<<

Yeah, just in case....

>>I'm pretty sure this was done by female/s<<

When you say that Zman, do you have any idea who that might be?? Do you think it was one of Patsy's friends??

 

[Zman]

>>Just in case someone other than a R really did this.<<

Yeah, just in case....

>>I'm pretty sure this was done by female/s<<

When you say that Zman, do you have any idea who that might be?? Do you think it was one of Patsy's friends??

Narla, are you trying to tempt me?LOL

 

[narlacat]

That question reminds me of a line from a Aussie song Zman
'I said to the man are you trying to tempt me, he just smiled and gave me a vegemite sandwich'

Anyway no, I'm not trying to tempt you!
I'm just curious as to your ideas as to who the female perp might be. A random female perp or someone Patsy knew?
Just say someone Patsy knew if you don't want to mention names.
Sorry if you have mentioned this before and I've missed it.

 

[itsreenw]

Serious. What is a REAL kidnapper itsreenw?
Maybe this was a first time crime by a very violent individual.
I will say again. Don't you think the R's would know that too? This was not about kidnapping.
You know if you guys just want to sit around and post PDI notes back and forth I'll be gald to stop posting here. I'm trying to offer the alternative. Just in case someone other than a R really did this.

I don't think they were there to sexually abuse JBR. I'm pretty sure this was done by female/s. The way her body was left is either an attempt to frame JR with incest or just a brutal humiliation of the body.
I think someone very close to the R's are responsible, so they are very comfortable in the house and yes they know where the pad a pens are, not to mention everything else.

ZMan, may I say that I have only been here a couple months and you have some very interesting, thought provoking posts, so I hope that you will continue to post here. We may not agree on every subject but some of the things you have mentioned have sent me speed-reading through books and sites to see the 'other side'.

Now, in response to the quoted post above..

.a REAL kidnapper is someone who actually takes the person with them!!! And we do agree on 2 things- that this was NOT about kidnapping, It was a murder that someone tried to make look like a kidnapping attempt. And I agree that the killer was female.

I don't know how you could say it wasn't about sex. If that were true, she would NOT have been violated sexually. It wasn't an afterthought to violate her to throw off LE. (I believe I read) it was done while she was still alive.

They could have just killed her or as some believe, abducted her from the house without ever molesting her. I believe she was molested by someone in that household who was initially being very nice to her to get her to cooperate with them. (Drawing the heart on her hand, giving her a late snack) then they got very angry, were already jealous of her or flew into a rage because of something she said or did that night.


I don't think The R's friends would feel THAT comfortable in their home to come in, molest and murder their daughter, then sit down and practice writing RN's until they came up with 3 pages of rambling words and never fear being caught!!

IMO, PR thought she was being really clever by throwing in words like "foreign faction" and using S.B.T.C. as a signature which could stand for Subic Bay Training Center which was in a foreign country, and just happened to be on a picture in the house. Very convenient for LE to see and investigate that avenue. Then the $118g ransom demand. That was supposed to send LE running around Access Graphics. Then PR put on her preformance and she thought LE would buy it hook, line & sinker. They didn't buy her act, but the R's money bought them privileges that allowed then to contaminate the crime scene enough to prevent them from being charged. But that's MY opinion!!

 

[Zman]

That question reminds me of a line from a Aussie song Zman
'I said to the man are you trying to tempt me, he just smiled and gave me a vegemite sandwich'

Anyway no, I'm not trying to tempt you!
I'm just curious as to your ideas as to who the female perp might be. A random female perp or someone Patsy knew?
Just say someone Patsy knew if you don't want to mention names.
Sorry if you have mentioned this before and I've missed it.

Do you come from the land down under?

Someone PR knew for sure. Someone they all knew for sure.

What is vegemite anyway narlacat?

 

[Zman]

I don't know how you could say it wasn't about sex. If that were true, she would NOT have been violated sexually. It wasn't an afterthought to violate her to throw off LE. (I believe I read) it was done while she was still alive.!!

JBR was not violated sexually for pleasure by a male attacker.IMO
Don't believe everything you read. As far as I can tell she was only violated by a paint brush handle. Nothing more. And no one knows if it was before or after she was dead.

IMO, PR thought she was being really clever by throwing in words like "foreign faction" and using S.B.T.C. as a signature which could stand for Subic Bay Training Center which was in a foreign country, and just happened to be on a picture in the house. Very convenient for LE to see and investigate that avenue. Then the $118g ransom demand. That was supposed to send LE running around Access Graphics. Then PR put on her preformance and she thought LE would buy it hook, line & sinker. They didn't buy her act, but the R's money bought them privileges that allowed then to contaminate the crime scene enough to prevent them from being charged. But that's MY opinion!!

I don't believe PR is that clever or quick thinking.
I don't believe she is the cool under pressure type.
I don't believe she wrote the RN.

 

[trixie]

JBR was not violated sexually for pleasure by a male attacker.IMO
Don't believe everything you read. As far as I can tell she was only violated by a paint brush handle. Nothing more. And no one knows if it was before or after she was dead.

I don't believe PR is that clever or quick thinking.
I don't believe she is the cool under pressure type.
I don't believe she wrote the RN.

"ONLY violated by a paint brush handle.(!!!) Nothing more.(!!!) And no one knows if it was before or after she was dead."

JB bled when she was "only" violated with a paintbrush handle. Dead bodies do not bleed.

 

[Zman]

"ONLY violated by a paint brush handle.(!!!) Nothing more.(!!!) And no one knows if it was before or after she was dead."

JB bled when she was "only" violated with a paintbrush handle. Dead bodies do not bleed.

It does seem I was a little callous about the paintbrush. Not my intention.

True, but dying unconscience bodies do.

 

[narlacat]

Do you come from the land down under?http://members.aol.com/bdzan/menatwork

Someone PR knew for sure. Someone they all knew for sure.

What is vegemite anyway narlacat?

Clever Boy.
Land Down Under was the name of the song and the band were called Men at Work. They have long since disbanded and I haven't heard the song in ages. Funny how as soon as I read that line, I thought of Men at Work and started humming!

Vegemite is a spread to put on your toast or on your sandwich. I'm not sure what you would have that is like it, it is black in colour and has a distinct taste, not sure exactly what it's made from....vegetable extracts it says, 'hence' the name Vegemite......

 

[Rupert]

IMO, PR thought she was being really clever by throwing in words like "foreign faction" and using S.B.T.C. as a signature which could stand for Subic Bay Training Center which was in a foreign country, and just happened to be on a picture in the house. Very convenient for LE to see and investigate that avenue. Then the $118g ransom demand. That was supposed to send LE running around Access Graphics. Then PR put on her preformance and she thought LE would buy it hook, line & sinker. They didn't buy her act, but the R's money bought them privileges that allowed then to contaminate the crime scene enough to prevent them from being charged. But that's MY opinion!!

Facts come first. Opinions follow. Your facts are wrong. It did not say "Subic Bay Training Centre". It was written into the waves: Subic Bay (a painting of an aurcraft carrier). So easy to jump to conclusions. This is old stuff.

 

[BlueCrab]

Facts come first. Opinions follow. Your facts are wrong. It did not say "Subic Bay Training Centre". It was written into the waves: Subic Bay (a painting of an aurcraft carrier). So easy to jump to conclusions. This is old stuff.

Rupert,

Linda Wilcox, the housekeeper prior to Linda Hoffman Pugh, was quoted in PMPT pb, pg 337:

"I don't remember if I told them about the large photograph John had of an aircraft carrier. On the bottom of the picture in fancy writing were the words Subic Bay Training Center. The script was faint because it blended in with the water, so the words were hard to read. It used to hang behind his desk in the bedroom."

However, there was no training facility at Subic other than a survival school. There was also a Subic Bay Naval Telecommunication Center at the base which was often referred to as simply the Subic Bay Telecommunication Center.

BlueCrab

 

[Rupert]

Rupert,

Linda Wilcox, the housekeeper prior to Linda Hoffman Pugh, was quoted in PMPT pb, pg 337:

"I don't remember if I told them about the large photograph John had of an aircraft carrier. On the bottom of the picture in fancy writing were the words Subic Bay Training Center. The script was faint because it blended in with the water, so the words were hard to read. It used to hang behind his desk in the bedroom."

However, there was no training facility at Subic other than a survival school. There was also a Subic Bay Naval Telecommunication Center at the base which was often referred to as simply the Subic Bay Telecommunication Center.

BlueCrab

I think in DOI it just says Subic Bay and written into the waves. LHP was wrong.

 

[BlueCrab]

I think in DOI it just says Subic Bay and written into the waves. LHP was wrong.

Rupert,

You're apparently thinking of the Subic Bay plaque found in the basement. It had just "Subic Bay" written on it.

The photo of the aircraft carrier, according to Linda Wilcox, had the words "Subic Bay Training Center" written on it.

BlueCrab

 

[Jayelles]

I'm sure this is a fact that I've missed along the way but Jayelles can you please pinpoint the source of this test for me?

Sure, I can direct you to Steve Thomas' deposition where he describes being told by Tom Trujillo that the sheets smelled of urine. He also stated in his deposition that there isn't a "test presumptive" for urine and was challenged by Lin Wood on the fact that urine contains chemicals and that there would be tests for those chemicals. This is where the creatinine comes in. It is present in urine and it was reported that the CBI confirmed that there were traces of creatinine present on the sheets. This was a news story a couple of years ago but I cannot find a link to the story - if you Google "creatinine + jonBenet" you will find links to forum discussions about the story.

Now this is where RST urban legend took over because "traces of creatinine" became "traces of urine" - which they easily explained by transfer from the rubber undersheet following a previous bedwetting accident. However, common sense should tell us that if creatinine is only one of numerous chemicals which are present in urine with the remainder comprising of other chemicals and a LOT of H20 - then traces of creatinine certainly does NOT equate to traces of urine. The vast majority of urine would evaporate - leaving only traces of a few chemicals.

 

[tipper]

[...]
Now this is where RST urban legend took over because "traces of creatinine" became "traces of urine" - which they easily explained by transfer from the rubber undersheet following a previous bedwetting accident. However, common sense should tell us that if creatinine is only one of numerous chemicals which are present in urine with the remainder comprising of other chemicals and a LOT of H20 - then traces of creatinine certainly does NOT equate to traces of urine. The vast majority of urine would evaporate - leaving only traces of a few chemicals.

I'm no scientist... but I'd have thought if the H2O evaporated, you'd have a higher concentration of what was left. Like raisins have a higher concentration of sugar than grapes.